|
On April 19 2010 06:20 Cheree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:05 LordWeird wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 05:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:50 Cheree wrote:
I've already said this many times. I expect people who didn't contribute to lose. I expect the staff not to humiliate people who lost/made a mistake nominating themselves when they've contributed nothing to the community. Losing and sighs from other members are enough. I don't expect the staff to unfairly group people who didn't do a mistake with those who did. I don't expect the staff to toy with people who don't deserve it, basically driving people away without getting to know them. I agree that you won't see a vast majority of them again, maybe partly due to the attitude of some of the members/staff are holding. I would have just allowed the natural course of the contest take place. I am starting to feel like TL has some condescending/elite behavior from their members/leaders. There's people like that everywhere, and thanks to this thread, I can start pinpointing these guys out. Getting to know the community goes both ways.
Whether someone stays opted-in or not isn't weeding out anyone. If they're going to leave, they don't need this thread to do it. This thread just pushes those on the verge into leaving when they could be pulled into contributing instead. You would not be the first to have that impression. TL has created that impression among many people over it's existence. Frankly, I don't think it's a stretch to say most of us don't really care what most of those people think, especially given their own histories with the site. I personally would be worried if we didn't give out that impression to people. I felt the same way Cheree felt a long time ago... but I think once you hang around for awhile, you get the feel of things and begin to think the same way as the people you used to think were elitist. We are a family here and we welcome ANYBODY who is serious about being a part of it... Ah, the fun of being on the inside pissing out. The answer to "Why are you pissing on your members and newcommers?" is "You'll understand with time." Tough love, man. Tough love.
You don't understand. Most of these people aren't just newcomers who are prospective contributors. They're just people who know there are a bunch of keys being given away and really want one by any means necessary. The ones who hang around after this is over will be the real heroes and this contest will just be something they laugh about. Beta key contests aren't really that serious, yet people act like they're to determine the final shuttle ride out of Armageddon. If these low post users really want one they should be willing to do whatever it takes anyway so if that involves doing some minutely humiliating things then so be it, right?
TL is not some puzzle that you have to solve before you can become a veteran/regular/known. All it really takes is common sense and respect. Look at baller for example; dude has like 160 posts and is already pretty well liked and known. Look at the list of newbies who got beta keys. Look at yourself. Look at posters like Gokain. If you put some fucking effort and humility into your posts you'll do fine and that applies for everybody...
TL wants people who will stick around and a great majority of the people who are in this contest are simply not going to regardless of whether they get a beta key from TL or not.
|
On April 19 2010 06:50 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:47 prosky wrote:
Anyway you consider all "low posters" new members. Remember that some of them might be like me - i like to read , not to write stuff ( well, that's probably i was too busy playing bw xD - it changed a bit now) but my account dates way back than Cheere or TheYango. So please, don't assume something just looking at someone post number. in a way it's almost worse that you joined in 2007 and don't even have 50 posts. it reminds me of baller's post Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 08:37 baller wrote:
i think its funny mad peeps think watching streams or loving/playing starcraft is "contributing". helping others is contributing. doing work 4 the site is contributing. entertaining urself by doing something u choose to do is not contributing. simply existing on a website is not "contributing".
its like going to some1s house, not talking to the ppl there, watching the TV that they bought, eating the food they made, and then saying "ur welcome every1, no need 2 thank me just gimme a beta key"
Yeah, that's right, but i never mentioned that i contributed to the TL community , did i? Even opposite, i wrote exactly, that i leeched of TL for long time now, and haven't done anything for it, not counting advising people to visit it , if they have any questions about BW, or if they are looking for some streams/replays etc.
To tell, you more, my first account dated back to 2005, if i am not wrong, and it had like 4 posts? I found this site, coz i was big fan of nazgul gameplay, and there were replays of him here  .
|
On April 19 2010 06:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:39 Cheree wrote:
Also, another point. You could be a good contributor and nominate yourself. You could even be better than other nominees who didn't nominate themselves. To take an extreme example, a lifetime's worth of selfless acts shouldn't be shattered by the mere fact that one nominated themselves to bring it to the attention of people. Then you drop out of the contest. If you value this community more than a silly beta key, the decision should be trivial.
I'm not in the contest, I didn't self-nominate and even if I were, I wouldn't even address the choice of opting-in or out cause it's a sham (community building) contest to begin with, at least that's what I believe. If someone were to make a choice, it wouldn't be trivial either.
Selfless opt-in:
- I want deserving members of the community to get the key, so I'm staying opted in so that the contest fails and the keys get distributed in a fairer manner.
- I want to win the key so that I can give it to someone who deserves it
Makes sense opt-in, person's not even thinking of selfishness/selflessness, but worthiness:
- I'm clearly a better contributor than anyone on the list, obviously they should step down and not me.
Makes sense opt-in:
- I don't care for the community, I'll just opt-in cause that's the only way I stand a chance according to HB!
Makes sense opt-out:
- Peer pressure, the odds are my opting out might look better than my opting in.
- Reverse psych, they may reward those who opt-out for being selfless, so I'll do that to win the key!
Self-less opt-out:
- I don't deserve the key, I'm opting out.
These are just some examples.
On April 19 2010 06:43 TheYango wrote:
Selflessness implies doing good without expecting anything in return. Even if you've contributed to the community, by nominating yourself, you are asking for something in return.
Yes, and the original contest wasn't rewarding selflessness, but people who contributed the most/best. And as shown above, this thread doesn't reward or distinguish people who are selfless by their decisions, the only way you can do that is by the content of their posts.
On April 19 2010 06:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:20 Cheree wrote:
Ah, the fun of being on the inside pissing out. The answer to "Why are you pissing on your members and newcommers?" is "You'll understand with time." Tough love, man. Tough love. It's not tough love. People who entered the community without expecting some material reward for being a member are treated just fine, and, as seen in the other thread, plenty were rewarded for it. The only people who have been given the tough treatment are those who feel like they *deserve* something.
You're saying every single person on that list is guilty of wanting something without contributing anything? Are you saying those who are guilty deserve to be judged/labelled based on a silly one-time mistake?
|
On April 19 2010 06:48 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:40 getSome[703] wrote:
Let me clarify then.
You say that wanting a beta key for yourself instead of allowing it to go to someone else is/is not selfish (this is this thread).
Wanting a beta key is not selfish. Everybody likes beta keys. And people who originally self-nominated themselves may not have realized that there are other more deserving people than they are. So in the scope of THESE people's knowledge, it is not a selfish act. They may not be aware of the work and effort many people have put into the TL community. However, people who nominate themselves knowing full well they have done shit and that other people have are being selfish.
And of course, people who do ultimately realize and are OK with the fact that other people deserve beta keys more than they do by conceding this contest are not being selfish.
Wanting a beta key for oneself is selfish, by definition: selfish: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish) (I recognize that this is the second definition. Dictionary.com's first definition agrees with the one I quote here, and in my mind MW's first definition agrees also but I don't like the "excessive" qualifier because that doesn't at all apply to how I use the word so I don't quote that definition). Since beta keys are a limited resource, wanting a beta key for yourself (being concerned for your ability to play SC2 beta) instead of allowing it to go to someone else (disregard of others) is being selfish. Note that this says nothing about whether the selfish person deserves the key more or has done more for TL. That is irrelevant--read the definition of the word.
You're joking right? So for all those people out there who want beta keys, and all those people who have one and didn't give it away: fuck you. Because clearly, by my dictionary definition, you are all selfish bastards.
That is completely ridiculous. Here is a statement: I would like a beta key. That is not selfish. Here is another statement: I am new to Starcraft and I'd like to play, and here is an opportunity on a website to get a key if I nominate myself. That is not selfish either.
And then we have: I would like a beta key over the many other people I am aware of who have liked Starcraft and contributed to the Starcraft community more than I have. This is seflish.
I have tried to break down my argument to make it very simple to follow.
Anyway you consider all "low posters" new members. Remember that some of them might be like me - i like to read , not to write stuff ( well, that's probably i was too busy playing bw xD - it changed a bit now) but my account dates way back than Cheere or TheYango. So please, don't assume something just looking at someone post number.Last edit: 2010-04-19 06:47:39
There may be exceptions, but I think the general assumption that people with fewer posts are less aware of and involved in the community is correct. And from the chart on page 1 you're the only one of these nerds who deserve a key by my reasoning, so props to you prosky 
|
Then we shall assassinate all people that got beta keys from blizz, even though they don't have acc on tl.net, how about that?
On April 19 2010 07:03 getSome[703] wrote: And from the chart on page 1 you're the only one of these nerds who deserve a key by my reasoning, so props to you prosky
Thanks, but i opted out :D
|
is awesome32269 Posts
On April 19 2010 07:03 prosky wrote:
Then we shall assassinate all people that got beta keys from blizz, even though they don't have acc on tl.net, how about that?
TL.net has no power over that. But we do over these keys.
|
Damn, why not? I am thinking of creating TL mafia in sc2 at last. Everyone that doesn't have TL.net acc and play sc2, will be punished :D ( I hope you understand that i say all of it as a joke, since i am in quite good mood? )
|
Thanks, but i opted out :D
Which is precisely why. And even after opting out you have remained engaging and humorous.
|
Well, that's probably because i have nothing better to do at 0:00 am ? Also, i need to learn some stuff later, so i thought it would be wise to cheer up ealier
|
United Kingdom2674 Posts
This has been one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen on this site. It really is remarkable.
|
On April 19 2010 07:03 getSome[703] wrote:
You're joking right? So for all those people out there who want beta keys, and all those people who have one and didn't give it away: fuck you. Because clearly, by my dictionary definition, you are all selfish bastards.
That is completely ridiculous. Here is a statement: I would like a beta key. That is not selfish. Here is another statement: I am new to Starcraft and I'd like to play, and here is an opportunity on a website to get a key if I nominate myself. That is not selfish either.
Any truly selfless act is irrational (well, we can debate about why I say this is so, I suppose, but I'll drop this here; if you like you can PM me and I will explain). I consider acting selfishly to be the only logically correct thing to do, and thus selfishness is a sign of intelligence (or rather, if you are intelligent you will be selfish ... I don't see a definite relationship going the other way though). I do not think being selfish is a bad thing. Being selfless is great for the people around you, but it makes absolutely no sense for you so you should never act selflessly.
It's clear you don't think about selfishness the way I do, but then I don't think most other people do either.
|
On April 19 2010 06:50 LordWeird wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 06:20 Cheree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:05 LordWeird wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 05:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:50 Cheree wrote:
I've already said this many times. I expect people who didn't contribute to lose. I expect the staff not to humiliate people who lost/made a mistake nominating themselves when they've contributed nothing to the community. Losing and sighs from other members are enough. I don't expect the staff to unfairly group people who didn't do a mistake with those who did. I don't expect the staff to toy with people who don't deserve it, basically driving people away without getting to know them. I agree that you won't see a vast majority of them again, maybe partly due to the attitude of some of the members/staff are holding. I would have just allowed the natural course of the contest take place. I am starting to feel like TL has some condescending/elite behavior from their members/leaders. There's people like that everywhere, and thanks to this thread, I can start pinpointing these guys out. Getting to know the community goes both ways.
Whether someone stays opted-in or not isn't weeding out anyone. If they're going to leave, they don't need this thread to do it. This thread just pushes those on the verge into leaving when they could be pulled into contributing instead. You would not be the first to have that impression. TL has created that impression among many people over it's existence. Frankly, I don't think it's a stretch to say most of us don't really care what most of those people think, especially given their own histories with the site. I personally would be worried if we didn't give out that impression to people. I felt the same way Cheree felt a long time ago... but I think once you hang around for awhile, you get the feel of things and begin to think the same way as the people you used to think were elitist. We are a family here and we welcome ANYBODY who is serious about being a part of it... Ah, the fun of being on the inside pissing out. The answer to "Why are you pissing on your members and newcommers?" is "You'll understand with time." Tough love, man. Tough love. You don't understand. Most of these people aren't just newcomers who are prospective contributors. They're just people who know there are a bunch of keys being given away and really want one by any means necessary. The ones who hang around after this is over will be the real heroes and this contest will just be something they laugh about. Beta key contests aren't really that serious, yet people act like they're to determine the final shuttle ride out of Armageddon. If these low post users really want one they should be willing to do whatever it takes anyway so if that involves doing some minutely humiliating things then so be it, right?
I agree that most newcommers who posted there came specifically to try their hand at the key. They don't know the selection process. Lots of communities have given keys out to complete newcommers or based on some judging on submissions. Maybe some of them thought if they could prep up their post, they can stand a chance. Also, every single person in the OP list isn't who the staff claims to target. There are people there who don't deserve the company they're with. The basic assumption of self-nomination is bad in this contest is wrong. Self-nomination without contribution is wrong, see the difference?
On April 19 2010 06:50 LordWeird wrote:
TL is not some puzzle that you have to solve before you can become a veteran/regular/known. All it really takes is common sense and respect. Look at baller for example; dude has like 160 posts and is already pretty well liked and known. Look at the list of newbies who got beta keys. Look at yourself. Look at posters like Gokain. If you put some fucking effort and humility into your posts you'll do fine and that applies for everybody...
I don't doubt that. But hey, I'm forgiving. If someone makes a reasonable mistake, I don't write them off. I'm not writing the staff off either based on this thread. It's just them venting with a pretty cool idea that unfortunately puts some underserving people in the crosshairs. There's some good and bad things that come as a result of this thread.
On April 19 2010 06:50 LordWeird wrote:
TL wants people who will stick around and a great majority of the people who are in this contest are simply not going to regardless of whether they get a beta key from TL or not.
They'll also leave regardless of this thread, so I don't see how someone can justify it as "weeding the bad members out."
|
On April 19 2010 07:13 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:03 getSome[703] wrote:
You're joking right? So for all those people out there who want beta keys, and all those people who have one and didn't give it away: fuck you. Because clearly, by my dictionary definition, you are all selfish bastards.
That is completely ridiculous. Here is a statement: I would like a beta key. That is not selfish. Here is another statement: I am new to Starcraft and I'd like to play, and here is an opportunity on a website to get a key if I nominate myself. That is not selfish either.
Any truly selfless act is irrational (well, we can debate about why I say this is so, I suppose, but I'll drop this here; if you like you can PM me and I will explain). I consider acting selfishly to be the only logically correct thing to do, and thus selfishness is a sign of intelligence. I do not think being selfish is a bad thing. Being selfless is great for the people around you, but it makes absolutely no sense for you so you should never act selflessly. It's clear you don't think about selfishness the way I do, but then I don't think most other people do either.
Well true, but then is giving up a chance at a beta key truly truly selfless? In this case, no. People who are giving up their chance at a key aren't seeking to help someone else. They just wish to been seen in a certain way by the community (they want to be seen as selfless). In order for personal gain in the future (more people liking them hopefully).
So all in all. Everyone is selfish regardless of what happens here. We should be arguing about who is most deserving of a key. not about who is selfish and who isn't.
|
On April 19 2010 07:17 Zeri wrote:
They just wish to been seen in a certain way by the community (they want to be seen as selfless). In order for personal gain in the future (more people liking them hopefully).
Yes I agree with this too.
|
I don't think selfless acts necessarily have to be irrational.
Here is an example: I would like a beta key. However, day9 deserves a beta key more than I do, because he contributes more. By my rational, I will withdraw from the contest because by my rational, someone deserves a beta key more than I do.
And likewise selfish acts are not always meditated and thought out, but can be spontaneous and irrational. I don't consider selfish people to be intelligent either... just mean and lacking people skills. Maybe they'll be ahead in the short term, but friends and people skills go a long way.
Let's keep discussion here, it adds to the thread.
|
|
|
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On April 19 2010 06:50 LordWeird wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:20 Cheree wrote:On April 19 2010 06:05 LordWeird wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2010 05:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:50 Cheree wrote:
I've already said this many times. I expect people who didn't contribute to lose. I expect the staff not to humiliate people who lost/made a mistake nominating themselves when they've contributed nothing to the community. Losing and sighs from other members are enough. I don't expect the staff to unfairly group people who didn't do a mistake with those who did. I don't expect the staff to toy with people who don't deserve it, basically driving people away without getting to know them. I agree that you won't see a vast majority of them again, maybe partly due to the attitude of some of the members/staff are holding. I would have just allowed the natural course of the contest take place. I am starting to feel like TL has some condescending/elite behavior from their members/leaders. There's people like that everywhere, and thanks to this thread, I can start pinpointing these guys out. Getting to know the community goes both ways.
Whether someone stays opted-in or not isn't weeding out anyone. If they're going to leave, they don't need this thread to do it. This thread just pushes those on the verge into leaving when they could be pulled into contributing instead. You would not be the first to have that impression. TL has created that impression among many people over it's existence. Frankly, I don't think it's a stretch to say most of us don't really care what most of those people think, especially given their own histories with the site. I personally would be worried if we didn't give out that impression to people. I felt the same way Cheree felt a long time ago... but I think once you hang around for awhile, you get the feel of things and begin to think the same way as the people you used to think were elitist. We are a family here and we welcome ANYBODY who is serious about being a part of it... Ah, the fun of being on the inside pissing out. The answer to "Why are you pissing on your members and newcommers?" is "You'll understand with time." Tough love, man. Tough love. You don't understand. Most of these people aren't just newcomers who are prospective contributors. They're just people who know there are a bunch of keys being given away and really want one by any means necessary. The ones who hang around after this is over will be the real heroes and this contest will just be something they laugh about. Beta key contests aren't really that serious, yet people act like they're to determine the final shuttle ride out of Armageddon. If these low post users really want one they should be willing to do whatever it takes anyway so if that involves doing some minutely humiliating things then so be it, right? TL is not some puzzle that you have to solve before you can become a veteran/regular/known. All it really takes is common sense and respect. Look at baller for example; dude has like 160 posts and is already pretty well liked and known. Look at the list of newbies who got beta keys. Look at yourself. Look at posters like Gokain. If you put some fucking effort and humility into your posts you'll do fine and that applies for everybody... TL wants people who will stick around and a great majority of the people who are in this contest are simply not going to regardless of whether they get a beta key from TL or not.
I agree with the above statement completely. Props to LordWeird (and baller, since he makes good graphs).
On April 19 2010 07:04 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:03 prosky wrote:
Then we shall assassinate all people that got beta keys from blizz, even though they don't have acc on tl.net, how about that? TL.net has no power over that. But we do over these keys.
I can lend you some of my assassins from XXII...
Summarization of thoughts:
On April 19 2010 07:13 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:
This has been one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen on this site. It really is remarkable.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
You're saying every single person on that list is guilty of wanting something without contributing anything? Are you saying those who are guilty deserve to be judged/labelled based on a silly one-time mistake?
Again, they were given the choice between staying in for the key, and not being labeled that way. It's unfortunate that they have to make such a choice, I agree, but for most people, that choice shouldn't be difficult. Using your examples:
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
Selfless opt-in:
- I want deserving members of the community to get the key, so I'm staying opted in so that the contest fails and the keys get distributed in a fairer manner.
- I want to win the key so that I can give it to someone who deserves it
You have yet to show anyone who actually is still in with these motivations. Even if they ostensibly do, they'd have to get a key and prove it, as plenty of people could pretend they'd give it to someone more deserving just to get some sympathy.
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
Makes sense opt-in, person's not even thinking of selfishness/selflessness, but worthiness:
- I'm clearly a better contributor than anyone on the list, obviously they should step down and not me.
Again, probably dropped out. Plus, if they've actually made major, notable, contributions to the site, people aren't going to let a single event mar their opinions. I'm pretty sure if people like Ver or MrHoon were on this list, people wouldn't be bashing them.
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
Makes sense opt-in:
- I don't care for the community, I'll just opt-in cause that's the only way I stand a chance according to HB!
Their choice is trivial. Stay in, fuck what the community says.
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
Makes sense opt-out:
- Peer pressure, the odds are my opting out might look better than my opting in.
- Reverse psych, they may reward those who opt-out for being selfless, so I'll do that to win the key!
Only really unfortunate case.
On April 19 2010 06:58 Cheree wrote:
Self-less opt-out:
- I don't deserve the key, I'm opting out.
Trivial decision, welcome to the community.
|
Personally I think people are getting too hung up on the "selfishness" of people self nominating. There is nothing selfish about throwing your hat in the ring when you have every expectation that TL.net will distribute the keys to who it believes is the most deserving members anyway. They were told at the start that it was purely nominations, not some guarantee that they will receive a key. As a result of this I don't see how anyone can accuse the newer people of "taking a key from the valid contributers" when it was expected TL.net would distribute it fairly in the end anyway as I said.
Many of these would be thinking along the lines of "Oh well, 45/50 keys might go to long standing members, but I'll nominate myself in case they give away 4-5 keys to newer members.". There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
|
On April 19 2010 07:17 Zeri wrote:
They just wish to been seen in a certain way by the community (they want to be seen as selfless). In order for personal gain in the future (more people liking them hopefully).
And there is also another option. I opted out because i thought it will look totally diffrent. There was key pool for veterans. There was key pool for newbies. And i thought that this will be key pool for neither vet nor newbie. I though that they will choose few people out of all those 29 sites of posts in prev. nomination thread. But it didn't look like that, so i backed off, thinking that there are more people deserving to get the key from TL.net (not the key GENERALY, but from TL.net) - like korean shows translators, people posting stuff about korean leagues, or even giving vods or good strategies backed up with replays or povs. So, please once again - don't put everone into the same bag.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
