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This is simple, and it's not about people wanting to play pure mech. Look:
Marauders are one of the few units Terran has that can do anything reasonable to a protoss ground army. Terran players use a lot of them.
Protoss players complain 'Marauders are overpowered, all Terran has to do is make mass Marauders and they win!'
Terran players counter with 'Maybe if building most of our units - especially mech ones - in the matchup wasn't an autoloss, we'd build more than marauders (and ghosts/medivacs/vikings/a few marines)'
And now you've completely missed the point and think that the problem is just that we like mech for some weird aesthetic reason.
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I'd love it if protoss would be strong with a mass stargate and a few ground support, That would make my day to see a solid strategy built around that!
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On April 06 2010 04:46 chocoed wrote:
Lol! I'm gonna say it. SC2 is a game. Not suppose to be realistic. And as the above poster said, it's all about the entertainment and exciting as an E-Sport.
Obviously it is a game, but saying "it is just a game" is the usual lazy excuse to not having to bother with reality. There are "Terrans" (humans) involved and why do we have to have them if they are totally different from us? Why have them if their "reality" is totally different from us? That doesnt make sense. Using a similar physics and biology (green grass and grey lava and buildings instead of bright pink for example) makes it easy to understand for "us real life dudes". Saying "it is just a game" is ignoring these points and having things that "contradict our reality" (like an infantry dude which is almost as tough as a big tank when you shoot him with a Machine Gun) make a game harder to understand for many people. Tanks are A LOT tougher than infantry and this is an expectation of players. Obviously this works only for Terrans, because Protoss and Zerg are totally alien races of which we have no expectations (except those we formed in SC1), so the logic of them can work totally different.
One of the main reasons why tanks are MUCH less effective in SC2 is that they have the same stats as SC1 (Minerals, Gas, hp), but cost 3 food instead of 2. Thus they got "nerfed" by 50%. If their toughness had increased by the same amount I would understand it, but it didnt. So people will stick to the vastly cheaper Marauder all the time, because it is absolutely easier to mass.
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On April 06 2010 04:43 DeathSpank wrote:
I applaud you good sir. People just don't want to change.
seconded. Pretty good OP. We all just kind of assumed it should be so (mech in tvp) and the reason we thought that is that we remember BW. But no underlying reason for it.
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Don't you go mech in TvT?
Granted, some people still go Bio, but there are a couple people that have found a way where mech (Viking/Banshee, Viking/Tank) has been viable?
Am I barking up a dead tree or is this actually viable?
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On April 06 2010 10:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Don't you go mech in TvT?
Granted, some people still go Bio, but there are a couple people that have found a way where mech (Viking/Banshee, Viking/Tank) has been viable?
Am I barking up a dead tree or is this actually viable?
It's all viable still. Almost everything within reason is because the game hasn't been figured out yet. Keep in mind everybody sucks at the game still. If a week into beta someone had made a thread predicting SCVs combat abilities would have to be nerfed they would've been laughed out of TL.net and probably banned for trolling.
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TvT bio is strong early on, and on maps that have open terrain and not too much high ground. Late game and on certain maps I find the action ends up being mostly tank/viking with various switches back to bio when applicable.
I actually had a 2 hour 15 minute TvT on Kulas yesterday where the entire map was mined out. My opponent moved to the high yield to start, then was playing very defensive with tanks and turrets all over. We split the map with siege positioning and turrets, had some viking/tank fights (with tanks in medivacs at times), and it felt quite similar to a BW TvT. Eventually I decided to switch to BCs/vikings after clearing his air out. BCs are just so slow they give up a lot of your map control, but there wasn't much other way I was going to get past the tanks and turrets. After killing off most of the tanks, he switched to marines, but I was eventually able to pull it off (BC/tank has no problem taking out marines) after a long stall war at the last expansion on the map, which I was holding.
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I'm a big fan of Marines + Tanks + Vikings in TvT. Of course you need a few Marauders at the beginning in Bunkers to hold off their Marauders until you have Tanks, but after that it's a matter of massing, threatening and expanding slowly/surely.
You really need to have air control to use Tanks, or else they're too vulnerable to harassment and you wind up getting crushed by drops/harassment in your backfield and at your expansions. If you want your tanks to hold against Marauders, you have to have them all in one place and well positioned. They can't be unsieging and running around constantly.
Using Thors as anti-air kinda fails in this match-up too because they get hosed by Marauders and they aren't going to help you much against harassment/drops elsewhere.
The Marines are there purely because you wind up with a ton of extra minerals and why not. They get in the way of Marauders for a few seconds before exploding. Good job guys. They also occasionally pop Vikings that beat yours in the air fight and give you a chance to recover there before banshees begin to show up again. Very helpful.
Note that this composition uses units from all 3 structures based on what the opponent is up to. Huzzah.
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On April 06 2010 08:09 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:42 Zaqwert wrote:
Infantry is more support than it is the primary way to win a war. Air power and things like tanks and ships are where it's at. This is actually the exact opposite of what happens in reality. You don't win a total victory until you occupy, and you don't occupy with air superiority--you occupy with masses of infantry. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 08:05 See.Blue wrote:
We want mech because it's completely unviable right now. lol. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 08:05 See.Blue wrote:
In SC:BW over all matchups, terran had the option to go Mech, Biomech or Bio. Strange that I never saw Terrans going bio vs Protoss, or how extraordinarily rare mech vs Zerg was.
Just because it wasn't standard didn't mean it wasn't good to go mech vs zerg or bio vs toss, just look at upmagic. He consistently goes bio vs toss.
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On April 06 2010 12:33 DoomBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 08:09 ComradeDover wrote:On April 06 2010 04:42 Zaqwert wrote:
Infantry is more support than it is the primary way to win a war. Air power and things like tanks and ships are where it's at. This is actually the exact opposite of what happens in reality. You don't win a total victory until you occupy, and you don't occupy with air superiority--you occupy with masses of infantry. On April 06 2010 08:05 See.Blue wrote:
We want mech because it's completely unviable right now. lol. On April 06 2010 08:05 See.Blue wrote:
In SC:BW over all matchups, terran had the option to go Mech, Biomech or Bio. Strange that I never saw Terrans going bio vs Protoss, or how extraordinarily rare mech vs Zerg was. Just because it wasn't standard didn't mean it wasn't good to go mech vs zerg or bio vs toss, just look at upmagic. He consistently goes bio vs toss.
If we assume standard = the best possible play, refined over time, then that's exactly what it means.
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Sometimes I think marauders are too strong and tanks are too expensive. Regarding their strength, they are already very very strong (especially when on high ground) and if you have something to keep off the immortal, they just demolish every other Protoss unit. Same for Thor who is very strong as an supporter.
The main issue is that mass marauder kick off buildings and light units way faster than a tank does and I think that is where something is wrong. A slight nerf to marauder and a cost / build time buff to mech may change the "perspective" of some players.
Tough, I agree, the game is far from being figured out, but if a standard works too well (in all MU) and T1 units can only be countered by T2 or T3 units - that makes most higher units less useful for Terran - I see a true issue behind that.
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On April 06 2010 05:04 Fumi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:45 Holden Caulfield wrote:
I think they just don't like winning. If you can win with barracks only units wtf are you complaining at? Now if the complainers are playing for fun it stills doenst make sense, MM are so fun, and even if they are not to some people, they win games and thats all it should matter anyway. Winning is all that should matter? Seriously? So you're happy if you just do the same thing over and over as long as you win? That's really boring, for the players and for the spectators. Also, having fun should always come first, otherwise winning feels pointless. Anyway, just some more variety would be nice. The top players are experimenting a lot with mech right now and I hope they come up with something nice. And maybe Blizz will help making mech more viable soon.
This is not true. You have to decide if you are playing for fun or to win. If for fun, then I agree with you, go there and build mech, shoot things with cannons, and yada da, If you still win, great, if not, well, you were just having fun anyway, you had your fun and the result was just a consequence, not what you wanted from the beggning. If you are playing to win, doesnt matter how boring it is, you won and accomplished what you wanted. Fun was a consequence. See the difference?
On the spectator issue, its the same thing, there's the casual spectator, who want to see things blow up, fights all over, comebacks and etc, and those who just want to see a high level play.High level play, be it SC or any other game, in general, may seem boring to people who really can't understand the things that are going on beyond the obvious.
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I think its more that people want to try and find the nitch or place that mech falls in the game, they are not saying it has to be used but that they would like to see it used to change things up every now and then, so that people can find exactly what matchup mech is good for
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I personally absolutely love how different TvZ (Bio) and TvP are in BW. It's like playing 2 separate races.
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yeah its because tanks used to be so awesome!
now they are so bad and easily countered
plus going mass marauder is way better and easier
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Mech was just soooo good in the TvP matchup in SC that terran can't help but want that kind of power again. I personally love mech (im a zerg player though) and I find mech builds can actually work very well, they just need to be fine tuned for whats going on.
Although, I do feel that hellion needs to feel more like a vulture, bring back mines!!
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On April 06 2010 04:42 Zaqwert wrote:
...
Infantry is more support than it is the primary way to win a war. Air power and things like tanks and ships are where it's at.
even rl does nothing to compare with sc ... ur wrong ^^
all what u have tank air etc is always support the infanterie is the "true force" so ... ur just wrong in anything !
see vietnam ^^ tanks air power ships all useless ownt by infanterie ^^ usa lost to a bunch of "marines" with very good micro xDDDDD
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couldnt help myself thinking of charly - the macro zer.. oh my god that is mad
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making pure mech viable is like adding a 4th race, terran mech and terran mm played so differently in bw that it was like playing two different races, so it really adds to the variability of the game to have good mech
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On April 06 2010 05:14 Sadistx wrote:
The problem terran has in Brood War and in SC2 is that it's pretty much impossible to go "air", even though air has separate upgrades.
Battlecruisers are such shitty units compared to other tier 3 units that you can't go BC's and support them with say a few vikings, and ravens, whereas P can go nearly pure carriers with a few ground units (immortal/templar) and Z can go half and half broodlords/ground.
I'd rather that T air becomes more viable as a main force and not only as harrass with 1-2 banshees and support with 2-3 vikings vs colossus.
i really disagree there , terran air rapes :D
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EPT
