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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On April 06 2010 21:11 Daerthalus wrote: I R soo confused. Discussing BW imbalance in a SC2 thread? Lurkers in SC2? Medics doing DPS? Dark templars doing bonus vs Armor Emon_ is just being a troll. A dumb troll that is failing to make a point. | ||
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
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jeppew
Sweden471 Posts
On April 06 2010 21:21 Senix wrote: Make the Roach a unique unit and not a Hydra clone. Lower hp but make the regen and armor high. Give it an identity! sure give it high regen, but don't give it higher armor. I don't think you realise how good high armor really is vs early units. I think the roach would be fine it had increased hp regen, -1 or -2 armor, slight hp reduction, and a hp regen upgrade in hive perhaps to make it better in the bigger battles towards the end. Then it would be abit tanky because of the regen instead of being tanky because T1 units deal heavily reduced damage to it. and maybe give it a -armor debuff on attack and lower its damage, would give a good support-damage boost to lings/hydras. | ||
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Daerthalus
Canada73 Posts
Armor buffs would decimate early game units, and make zealots /marines and lings pointless all game long. | ||
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EntSC
47 Posts
On April 06 2010 12:06 Kleander wrote: switch hydra and roach (nerfing and buffing respectively to make them fit into their tier positions) require an armory to build marauder nerf zealots and make hard shell an upgrade at robo facility and then start the REAL balancing of the game This seems to me to be the best suggestion on balancing. I really, really wish Blizzard would roll out multiple patches for different servers. That way they could test more radical suggestions, whilst at the same time working on a more iterative improvement process. | ||
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BillyMole
United States118 Posts
They're never going to get it unless they make some changes. Currently, with very few exceptions, when a game loads up you already know what it's going to look like just from the matchup. Not only is watching a roach or marauder ball boring, it's predictable. The game needs to not only be balanced, but dynamic and interesting at the same time. This is not an easy combination to hit, but we all know it's missing that mark right now. We all agree that changing the unholy trinity is a big undertaking, since it would almost certainly require multiple iterations, and possibly even new units. However, saying it's too close to release to do the work is not an excuse. All that does is doom us to a boring game that will never overtake SCBW as a sport. Which, in essence, makes SC2 a waste of effort for anything other than quick money. If they're unwilling to make the changes, then they should just release today. Minor balance tweaks can be done after release, beta is designed to spot big things like this and FIX them. Not identify big problems then avoid them because you don't want to do the work. | ||
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Vic.nQQ
Bulgaria88 Posts
The lurker mirror OP made my day :D thx dude | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On April 06 2010 15:32 NiGhT_mArE wrote: Honestly I feel that nerfing all three is indeed the correct thing to do, yet when one nerfs them one realizes how boring and dull the units truly are This is a frequent comment in the thread, and one I do not understand. How are these units boring? especially considering they are tier 1.5-2 units? I mean the SCI equivalents are hydra, firebats, and dragoons....nothing particularly exciting about those units. Each of the "unholy trinity" has a nice interesting ability, I just think that its overshadowed by their over inflated stats. I don't mind that the maurader can slow and pick off units one at a time, I mind that the maurader tears through armies singlehandedly. I don't mind that an immortal can take 10 shots from a tank, its that it can kill buildings and workers in a few shots. And I don't mind that a roach has regen, I just mind that the roach is so strong regen is rarely used. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
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Peeling
United Kingdom17 Posts
ATM the only penalty for massing single unit types is that you don't get the benefits others would have brought. This strikes me as inherently difficult to balance. But what if massing certain units carried a penalty? As a for-instance, what if roaches had their regen rebuffed, but each consumed a small quantity of minerals or gas for every X regen 'ticks'? Hitting massed roaches with storm or kiting them would thus place a significant drain on a zerg player's economy. | ||
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TAD[nnilf]
United States191 Posts
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
In SC1 you had interesting units like the Scourge (a melee air unit!) and the Lurker, that made Zerg feel different from the other two races. However, with the incredibly misshot that is called hard counters, the three races MUST be similar for the balancing to even work, and add to that the Roach and the few units of the Zerg arsenal, and you have a recipe for failure (or atleast a game that will never succeed as a fun game or a fun spectator sport). Sure, I could go back to SC1, but the problem is that SC2 will kill SC1 and if SC2 keep Zerg as a broken race with so few and mostly Protossy-like units, SC2 will die quickly, and then it is too late to resurrect SC1. The problem is not the balance - Blizzard will be able to balance the game as perfect as humanly possible, that is for certain. The problem IS that the game in the current state is not good enough, because of these things mentioned. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
*changes from the original post are in italics The Balance Changes: This is what I was just discussing with my friend: Nerf roach hp to something like 50 hp. Buff their armor to 3. Perhaps rebalance their cost a bit (2 food?), and maybe even reduce their damage slightly. Basically, you'll want T2 units to kill these guys, or really good focus fire, but once T2 is out, they're not terribly strong. Change the marauder to a support unit role. Reduce HP, Increase gas cost (perhaps 50/50 like the reaper?), and make it a flat 10 damage attack. The idea is that they'll be a great asset to your army, but in a straight up fight they lose to basically everything. More like the sentry of terrans. With stim they'll be much stronger, but not broken good. (They will do the same dps to non armored units, so use that as a reference). Decrease immortal damage to 20 (+10). Hardened shields is an amazing idea, and having a unit specifically designed to be a frontline tank vs heavy hitters is amazing. However, when you can walk up to a tank or bunker and decimate it instantly, something is wrong. It turns from less of an antiarmor unit to a tanking frontline unit designed to break fortified positions or absorb those first hits. Lets now look at how this affects each matchup: Roaches: -They will make Hydras > Roach in ZvZ, so once T2 kicks in it'll be about hydras, but then you have banelings which counter hydras, roaches which counter banelings, mutas which counter everything but hydra, and suddenly it's a dynamic matchup! Lings will be useful only as harass/rush units, but that's fine because they're so stupid fast anyways =P -They will forces T2 out of terran. With the mara nerf they will still be the t1 counter, but they won't do very well vs crawlers. Roaches will be one of those units that force micro. Target roach with heavy hitters (maras/tanks/thors) and use marines to mop up the rest. It'd also make the answer to mech more complicated than "lots of roaches." -They will make roaches even more of a tank vs sentry/zealot, but even weaker vs stalkers. With the immortal nerf, you'll need stalkers to fight roaches, but that'll make for a better dynamic, because stalkers fall to hydra/lings pretty easily, but sentry/zealot does well vs that. Immortals will be more of a crawler tank/anti ultra unit. It also makes roaches affected by storm, so that even with the storm nerf it's still viable in PvZ. We can't forget that roaches still will have burrowwalk, so they'll still be very creative ways to use them!!! Marauders: -They will make mech much more viable in TvT, since they will not decimate tanks/vikings/thors completely. We'll still see them, and they still will hit hard and be really useful as support. This will open up the game for more positional tank play, and more use of vikings on the ground. TvT already is a very exciting matchup, but the marauder is just too strong right now. -They will make TvP not a mara spamfest. Maras would still be just as effective earlygame vs zealots in terms of kiting, and amazing at picking off units. However, stalkers would beat maras in a straight up fight, and maras themselves would not be massable. You'd want a few for the slow buff and decent range which allows you to use micro really effectively, but you'd want to get out tanks with marine support to deal with T1, and hellions to deal with zealots. With the immortal change, this would be viable. -They will make TvZ more about static defense for zerg. The reasoning behind this is maras make crawlers completely garbage right now, but if they weren't so powerful zerg could actually use their static defense to hold expansions instead of masses of units. With the roach nerf, roaches won't be nearly as strong past earlygame, so once maras are on the field you'll want to throw up some crawlers and get to T2. Maras will still counter roaches, but they'd be much weaker outside of that niche. You'd really want some dropships or tanks as terran to break zerg (sound familiar?) Basically, marauders become the sentries of terran, but still function well as a t1.5 counter to roaches! Immortals We've already gone over immortals fairly extensively but lets revisit: -They will not affect PvP much. Immortals already are not heavily used except vs stalker heavy armies. They'd still be strong in that regard, but collosi, dt, chargelot, and good force fields/guardian do fine anyways, so you really don't need immortals. I'd see them being a strong counter to archons or DTs though. -They will be more of a tanking unit in PvT. Immortals will be great for absorbing those first hits from sieged tanks, tanking a PF, or tanking thors. They still will be strong damage. However you don't need them to be massive damage dealers since now stalkers can be more viable given the marauder nerf! -As discussed before, they will be more of an anticrawler/anti ultra unit in PvZ. With the new roach being fairly weak vs stalkers, we'll see immortals become much less of an antiroach unit and more specialized. They still will be useful, but to break turtling zergs without having to go all the way to collosus range (which btw is at risk for infestors too). Lategame you'll want them in the front to tank ultra hits while stalkers/collosi/archons hit from the back. Basically, we're turning a powerhouse into more of a frontline tank. To conclude: These changes will make EVERY matchup more interesting and dynamic. Perhaps it will slightly imbalance things for other units, but that's something which can be fixed fairly easily, and it's a small cost for a massive improvement in gameplay. I've put a lot of thought into these changes. I hope you guys can all do the same. Given feedback from people, I tweaked up some numbers. | ||
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SirNeb
United States243 Posts
On April 06 2010 23:59 HowardRoark wrote: Zerg have fewer "fighting" units than Terran and especially Protoss, and when Blizzard removed the lurker and did not replace it with anything before the beta, things turned out even worse for Zerg. Because of the few and uninteresting units of the Zerg arsenal, the Roach had to step up and take a major role in the Zerg arsenal. The problem is that the Roach is such a plain boring unit and making this unit the core of the Zerg arsenal made things even worse. In SC1 you had interesting units like the Scourge and the Lurker, that made Zerg feel different from the other two races. However, with the incredibly misshot that is called hard counters, the three races MUST be similar for the balancing to even work, and add to that the Roach and the few units of the Zerg arsenal, and you have a recipe for failure (or atleast a game that will never succeed as a fun game or a fun spectator sport). Sure, I could go back to SC1, but the problem is that SC2 will kill SC1 and if SC2 keep Zerg as a broken race with so few and mostly Protossy-like units, SC2 will die quickly, and then it is too late to resurrect SC1. The problem is not the balance - Blizzard will be able to balance the game as perfect as humanly possible, that is for certain. The problem IS that the game in the current state is not good enough, because of these things mentioned. I think it's true that zerg lack a bit of unit diversity. I kind of accepted it as zerg being a massing race and less diversity and smaller numbers like protoss. That said, overall new feature wise as compared to BW, zerg did get quite a bit new things such as nynus canel, queen, changeling, ol creep spreading, speed on creep and etc.. I think those are great additions but lacking unit diversity make them less desirable to play for sure. I'm a terran player, I really enjoyed the experience of playing protoss, though I didn't like to play them much in BW. The warp gates and chrono boosts are just great ideas to make them much cooler and fun. I have to admit that zerg is not as fun by far, just seems less polish and the new additions don't add as much to the experience. But of course, it's my personal preference but I think they are backed up by good reasons. | ||
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
Roaches should be low-damage, high-regen meat shields vulnerable to air. Hydras should be glass cannons. Zerglings should be really really fast. These should be the core, and they should come in huge clumps. MUTAs should be a useful counter to roaches, immortals, and marauders. | ||
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TAD[nnilf]
United States191 Posts
On April 07 2010 00:05 Floophead_III wrote: Roaches: -They will make Hydras > Roach in ZvZ, so once T2 kicks in it'll be about hydras, but then you have banelings which counter hydras, roaches which counter banelings, mutas which counter everything but hydra, and suddenly it's a dynamic matchup! Lings will be useful only as harass/rush units, but that's fine because they're so stupid fast anyways =P . NO NO NO. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! In ZvZ, Hydra's are a Tier 2 unit, thus should automatically be stronger than any tier one unit. HOWEVER, I know from experience and testing/playing, that a mass roach army will KILL a mass hydra army, which frankly should not be even close to possible. Roaches are imba, and they need to significantly decrease their attack damage. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
On April 07 2010 00:05 TAD[Life] wrote: Roaches are imba, and they need to significantly decrease their attack damage. This. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 07 2010 00:27 TAD[Life] wrote: NO NO NO. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! In ZvZ, Hydra's are a Tier 2 unit, thus should automatically be stronger than any tier one unit. HOWEVER, I know from experience and testing/playing, that a mass roach army will KILL a mass hydra army, which frankly should not be even close to possible. Roaches are imba, and they need to significantly decrease their attack damage. Uh.... did you even read? Hydras do 12 damage a shot. Right now they do 10 damage to a roach, which means they need 15 shots to kill one. I'm suggesting making roaches basically immune to lings by upping the armor, but dropping the hp to somewhere around 50. Hydras will then do 9 damage a shot. That's 8 hits to kill a roach. How the hell is this not better? | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
Since they want Roaches, Marauders and Siege Tanks to be armored, all of these units will be countered by armored counter units. These +armor bonuses are pretty high for certain units, and therefore all of these units will be high on HP. Resulting in Marauders closing in with HP on Siege Tanks and Roaches having over half more than Hydralisks. One solution would be to make some compromise class - like Light Armored. SC1 hydralisks for example were exactly the unit in between when facing explosive type damage like siege tank taking only 75% damage. Consquently Light Armor should be +50% of bonus damage. Warcraft III can be considered a game of hard counters, even there units with in between status exist due to enhanced armor type system. I still think Marauders along with all Terran infantry should be very low on HP even lower than 100, but also significantly cheaper. Roaches should be close to Hydralisks on HP, but Roaches should be specialized vs bio or light while having high regen abilities(even when not burrowed). Then immortals can be nerfed and long live the siege tanks. | ||
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