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On March 31 2010 17:50 w_Ender_w wrote:
For all those complaining about the storm nerf, playing against it as a Zerg player I haven't seen much of a difference. It still rocks the socks off my Hydra's if I don't micro them out of it and can turn fights against me quite easily. I feel pretty indifferent about the change. I had a guy in a 2v2 use storms effectively against my Mutas effectively as well. I think that it'll just force people to place the storms better, especially against air (using the shadow/ground circles instead of hitting where they are in the air and missing with most of it).
i hear roaches are immune to storm, try them
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On March 31 2010 19:47 StorrZerg wrote:
i hear roaches are immune to storm, try them
Just trying to cheer up some of the folk complaining so much about the storms being worthless. They most certainly are not.
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A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect.
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in a future patch storm will be renamed to lightning bolt and target single unit only :D
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On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect.
Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring.
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On March 31 2010 20:07 AndyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring.
Of course the area of effect is important. But a spell with twice the area of effect isn't twice as good. A spell with twice the radius is probably more than twice as good though so the rate of the spells increased effectiveness is somewhere between the two.
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On March 31 2010 20:05 McCrank wrote:
in a future patch storm will be renamed to lightning bolt and target single unit only :D
i had to laugh rl. seriously that was funny but at the same time sad =(
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dear blizzard, force everyone to play random every game so we dont get 99999 whineposts that "their race" has been nerfec "unfairly" "every patch", thannx!
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On March 31 2010 20:10 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 20:07 AndyJay wrote:On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring. Of course the area of effect is important. But a spell with twice the area of effect isn't twice as good. A spell with twice the radius is probably more than twice as good though so the rate of the spells increased effectiveness is somewhere between the two.
because area is 45% less units exit storm faster and so even units you storm directly take less damage.. even units who go trough a casted storm take less damage.. speedlings could probably just run trough a storm with 1 tick of damage.
effectiveness vs air is even worse.. If you micro air units should take only 20 damage..
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On March 31 2010 20:07 AndyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring.
What hes saying is that its not a 45% effectiveness nerf because its rare that 100% of a storms area has units under it.
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On March 31 2010 20:16 DM20 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 20:07 AndyJay wrote:On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring. What hes saying is that its not a 45% effectiveness nerf because its rare that 100% of a storms area has units under it.
correct but now you have to acct for when units move in and out of storm, with a bigger radius you get more damage since there is more surface area, smaller one easier to move out of.
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To many people moves to fast to conclusions....
IF the changes create imbalances, thats totally fine. Cause this is BETA. Blizzard trying out things is good. It would be a lot worse if they didnt, considering the gameplay to be already perfected. Furthermore imbalances force people to try out new strategies, and new patches will definitively change things around again anyway...
And as someone said above, the power of the storm hasnt been nerfed 45%, its the area... The power isnt linear with the area, if so you would think you allways casted it on the ground packed with units AND you couldnt cast another storm to cover more area. But this is totally not true. As of now it requires some more micro (then again we have smartcasting...) and more templars. But still 2 templars is enough to cover quite some area in a battle. Its still open to see how this plays out but please do so before screaming...
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On March 31 2010 17:38 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 Are you an idiot or are you just trolling? Firstly those stats are for 2 patches ago, back before the last patch that made an extreme nerf against terran! After that terran was pretty much the big underdog while toss and zerg were roughly equal. Also those stats are wrong, I ´pointed it out in the original thread and the keeper of the stats changed it acordingly, the real stats shows that protoss had the same race stats as zerg and terran had 2% more wins than them 2 patches ago which basically means that it was almost balanced. http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/21327/Stop posting shit please, next time actually link and you would see that those stats got removed quickly since they were faulthy, and this also goes for these guys: Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 08:30 Chen wrote:Blizzard really hates protoss. seriously when the fuck are they going to stop nerfing toss and give them a buff? when their win rate gets down to 25%? 40% pre-patch and probably going to drop pretty heavily after this one... Terran gets buffed across the board On March 31 2010 04:41 eXigent. wrote:On March 31 2010 04:22 CharlieMurphy wrote:On March 31 2010 04:21 MorroW wrote:
awesome patch! liked every single thing about it
I hope you are joking The storm nerf is not really that big, its radius decreases slightly. Toss gets a ~40% decrease in the power of one of its most vital abilities (for those of you who are mathematically challenged, 25% decrease in radius=43.75% decrease in area) 1.5^2=2.25 vs 2^2=4 in exchange, they get a 20% buff in cannon HP... Zerg gets a 25% nerf to the immediate cost of spores, a 25% damage buff to spines(vs non armored) AND a 27% attack rate increase. Roach and broodlord nerf are nice, but those only apply post-hive tech, which isnt really the problem. Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 17:08 GoDannY wrote:On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:On March 31 2010 05:18 mOnion wrote:On March 31 2010 05:16 Paladia wrote:
Great, the race that had a 42% win rate in the top before the two nerf patches (Protoss) gets even more nerfed, while the race with above 60% win rate gets even more buffed.
Banshee buff and HT nerf makes no sense. The area storm covers was decreased by almost 50%, GG no re. only decreased by 25%....and where are you getting your stats? 25%? Math ftl mate. How do you calculate area of a circle? Area = pi * radius^2 and thus Prenerf: pi * 2^2 = 12.7 Area Storm covers: 12.7After nerf: pi * 1.5^2 = 7 Area Storm covers: 7Difference in percent: 1-(7/12.7) = 45% Total area nerf to Storm: 45%, it is possibly the biggest nerf ever done in Starcraft history. As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 These statistics (thanks for bringing them up!) shows definately that this patch is pure garbage. All your arguments basically got blown to bits, stop posting so much damn crap in this thread please. These changes were fine, terran was underpowered last patch, terran was slightly overpowered 2 patches ago. Now, can people actually discuss things that are not directly wrong instead of making this forum seem like a clown school? Huh? The recent numbers are pretty much the same.
NB Joueurs NB Win NB Lose Ratio % Diff %
Protoss 26 1545 1233 55.62% -2.28
Random 11 459 327 58.40% 0.5
Terran 36 1361 887 60.54% 2.65
Zerg 27 1039 756 57.88% -0.01
Total général 100 4404 3203 57.89%
Terrans are in no way "underpowered" as you claim, they've been the top dog for several patches now (as all stats prove) and this recent patch will hardly change that. The only ones who seem to think otherwise are Terran players who are more interested in getting easy wins than a balanced game.
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On March 31 2010 20:48 rtano wrote:
To many people moves to fast to conclusions....
IF the changes create imbalances, thats totally fine. Cause this is BETA. Blizzard trying out things is good. It would be a lot worse if they didnt, considering the gameplay to be already perfected. Furthermore imbalances force people to try out new strategies, and new patches will definitively change things around again anyway...
And to give people and developers an idea what is wrong they need to know - and that's where the complaining comes in....
loop di doo
On March 31 2010 20:53 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 17:38 Klockan3 wrote:On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 Are you an idiot or are you just trolling? Firstly those stats are for 2 patches ago, back before the last patch that made an extreme nerf against terran! After that terran was pretty much the big underdog while toss and zerg were roughly equal. Also those stats are wrong, I ´pointed it out in the original thread and the keeper of the stats changed it acordingly, the real stats shows that protoss had the same race stats as zerg and terran had 2% more wins than them 2 patches ago which basically means that it was almost balanced. http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/21327/Stop posting shit please, next time actually link and you would see that those stats got removed quickly since they were faulthy, and this also goes for these guys: On March 31 2010 08:30 Chen wrote:Blizzard really hates protoss. seriously when the fuck are they going to stop nerfing toss and give them a buff? when their win rate gets down to 25%? 40% pre-patch and probably going to drop pretty heavily after this one... Terran gets buffed across the board On March 31 2010 04:41 eXigent. wrote:On March 31 2010 04:22 CharlieMurphy wrote:On March 31 2010 04:21 MorroW wrote:
awesome patch! liked every single thing about it
I hope you are joking The storm nerf is not really that big, its radius decreases slightly. Toss gets a ~40% decrease in the power of one of its most vital abilities (for those of you who are mathematically challenged, 25% decrease in radius=43.75% decrease in area) 1.5^2=2.25 vs 2^2=4 in exchange, they get a 20% buff in cannon HP... Zerg gets a 25% nerf to the immediate cost of spores, a 25% damage buff to spines(vs non armored) AND a 27% attack rate increase. Roach and broodlord nerf are nice, but those only apply post-hive tech, which isnt really the problem. On March 31 2010 17:08 GoDannY wrote:On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:On March 31 2010 05:18 mOnion wrote:On March 31 2010 05:16 Paladia wrote:
Great, the race that had a 42% win rate in the top before the two nerf patches (Protoss) gets even more nerfed, while the race with above 60% win rate gets even more buffed.
Banshee buff and HT nerf makes no sense. The area storm covers was decreased by almost 50%, GG no re. only decreased by 25%....and where are you getting your stats? 25%? Math ftl mate. How do you calculate area of a circle? Area = pi * radius^2 and thus Prenerf: pi * 2^2 = 12.7 Area Storm covers: 12.7After nerf: pi * 1.5^2 = 7 Area Storm covers: 7Difference in percent: 1-(7/12.7) = 45% Total area nerf to Storm: 45%, it is possibly the biggest nerf ever done in Starcraft history. As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 These statistics (thanks for bringing them up!) shows definately that this patch is pure garbage. All your arguments basically got blown to bits, stop posting so much damn crap in this thread please. These changes were fine, terran was underpowered last patch, terran was slightly overpowered 2 patches ago. Now, can people actually discuss things that are not directly wrong instead of making this forum seem like a clown school? Huh? The recent numbers are pretty much the same. NB Joueurs NB Win NB Lose Ratio % Diff %
Protoss 26 1545 1233 55.62% -2.28
Random 11 459 327 58.40% 0.5
Terran 36 1361 887 60.54% 2.65
Zerg 27 1039 756 57.88% -0.01
Total général 100 4404 3203 57.89% Terrans are in no way "underpowered" as you claim, they've been the top dog for several patches now (as all stats prove) and this recent patch will hardly change that. The only ones who seem to think otherwise are Terran players who are more interested in getting easy wins than a balanced game.
Thanks for bringing this up. True, I was a little bit raged when i posted that and my arguments weren't perfectly chosen, however, this numbers clearly show that we are, in fact, heading in the wrong direction.
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On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect.
No, it increases by a quadratic degree (area = π * radius^2).
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Come on people, think a little bit before you speak. Having small storm are effect a whole hell lot more than just how much potential damage it can do. Now sit there for a second and think this over again. If the storm is smaller, no only does it cover less area, but it takes unit that much less time spent under the storm when they are trying to move out of it. At the epic center, even if you move out as soon as the storm hit you, the unit still suffer somewhat half of the storm effect. The new storm, the unit move out much easier and now a person with good cc only suffer a 4th of the storm effect.
So to simplify it even more, the smaller area of the storm reduces both the amount of unit it can damage but also how much damage unit suffer while being stormed. Hell, I'm sure if someone actually sit down and do the math, they will see that a 45% reduction to the storm coverage will caused more that 45% reduction of the storm effectiveness.
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On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect.
Dude, what ever crack you are on I want some.
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On March 31 2010 20:53 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 17:38 Klockan3 wrote:On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 Are you an idiot or are you just trolling? Firstly those stats are for 2 patches ago, back before the last patch that made an extreme nerf against terran! After that terran was pretty much the big underdog while toss and zerg were roughly equal. Also those stats are wrong, I ´pointed it out in the original thread and the keeper of the stats changed it acordingly, the real stats shows that protoss had the same race stats as zerg and terran had 2% more wins than them 2 patches ago which basically means that it was almost balanced. http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/21327/Stop posting shit please, next time actually link and you would see that those stats got removed quickly since they were faulthy, and this also goes for these guys: On March 31 2010 08:30 Chen wrote:Blizzard really hates protoss. seriously when the fuck are they going to stop nerfing toss and give them a buff? when their win rate gets down to 25%? 40% pre-patch and probably going to drop pretty heavily after this one... Terran gets buffed across the board On March 31 2010 04:41 eXigent. wrote:On March 31 2010 04:22 CharlieMurphy wrote:On March 31 2010 04:21 MorroW wrote:
awesome patch! liked every single thing about it
I hope you are joking The storm nerf is not really that big, its radius decreases slightly. Toss gets a ~40% decrease in the power of one of its most vital abilities (for those of you who are mathematically challenged, 25% decrease in radius=43.75% decrease in area) 1.5^2=2.25 vs 2^2=4 in exchange, they get a 20% buff in cannon HP... Zerg gets a 25% nerf to the immediate cost of spores, a 25% damage buff to spines(vs non armored) AND a 27% attack rate increase. Roach and broodlord nerf are nice, but those only apply post-hive tech, which isnt really the problem. On March 31 2010 17:08 GoDannY wrote:On March 31 2010 05:44 Paladia wrote:On March 31 2010 05:18 mOnion wrote:On March 31 2010 05:16 Paladia wrote:
Great, the race that had a 42% win rate in the top before the two nerf patches (Protoss) gets even more nerfed, while the race with above 60% win rate gets even more buffed.
Banshee buff and HT nerf makes no sense. The area storm covers was decreased by almost 50%, GG no re. only decreased by 25%....and where are you getting your stats? 25%? Math ftl mate. How do you calculate area of a circle? Area = pi * radius^2 and thus Prenerf: pi * 2^2 = 12.7 Area Storm covers: 12.7After nerf: pi * 1.5^2 = 7 Area Storm covers: 7Difference in percent: 1-(7/12.7) = 45% Total area nerf to Storm: 45%, it is possibly the biggest nerf ever done in Starcraft history. As for the race stats, they are from esportsfrance. Counting the top 100 rated people in EU. Race Wins Losses Win % Last patch difference
Protoss 637 834 43.30% -13.52
Random 749 569 56.83% -3.23
Terran 1681 1118 60.06% 7.46
Zerg 800 721 52.60% -1.80 These statistics (thanks for bringing them up!) shows definately that this patch is pure garbage. All your arguments basically got blown to bits, stop posting so much damn crap in this thread please. These changes were fine, terran was underpowered last patch, terran was slightly overpowered 2 patches ago. Now, can people actually discuss things that are not directly wrong instead of making this forum seem like a clown school? Huh? The recent numbers are pretty much the same. NB Joueurs NB Win NB Lose Ratio % Diff %
Protoss 26 1545 1233 55.62% -2.28
Random 11 459 327 58.40% 0.5
Terran 36 1361 887 60.54% 2.65
Zerg 27 1039 756 57.88% -0.01
Total général 100 4404 3203 57.89% Terrans are in no way "underpowered" as you claim, they've been the top dog for several patches now (as all stats prove) and this recent patch will hardly change that. The only ones who seem to think otherwise are Terran players who are more interested in getting easy wins than a balanced game.
No, those are the correct old numbers, not the new numbers... The old false numbers posted before were never correct for any patch at all, protoss never had 40% wins for top 100 players!!!!
The numbers I posted where the worst patch for protoss, after that terran got nerfed which was the last patch, we got no numbers specifically for last patch but we do know that terran did really poorly in all the tournaments helf during that patch.
Now can you guys stop posting your uninformed crap?
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On March 31 2010 20:29 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 20:16 DM20 wrote:On March 31 2010 20:07 AndyJay wrote:On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. Wait, what? I'm no mathamagician but that makes no sense at all to me. Storm's radius is pretty damn important as to how effective it is. Personally I don't mind if the spell remains this way but I think they really need to re-evaluate the Protoss tech tree. I mean Dark Shrine, really? The main offender though is the critical importance of both observers and immortals, which makes the Protoss Tier 2 building a no brainer for every match up, which is extremely boring. What hes saying is that its not a 45% effectiveness nerf because its rare that 100% of a storms area has units under it. correct but now you have to acct for when units move in and out of storm, with a bigger radius you get more damage since there is more surface area, smaller one easier to move out of.
A unit in the middle of the storm used to have to move 2 now its 1.5.A unit traveling across a storm has to go 3 instead of 4. 25% less storm to travel through.
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On March 31 2010 21:00 mfukar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 19:59 DrainX wrote:
A 45% decrease in area of effect of a spell doesn't necessarily mean that the spells effectiveness has been reduced by 45%. It's much easier to hit a high density of units with a smaller circle than with a larger one. The larger the circle is, the more unused area there will be. The spells effectiveness doesn't increase linearly with the area of effect. No, it increases by a quadratic degree (area = π * radius^2).
area =/= effectiveness
radius =/= effectiveness
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EPT
