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On March 31 2010 13:40 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 13:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:31 LunarC wrote:On March 31 2010 13:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:14 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, nerfing storms is the worst thing that they can do. Saying psi storms are overpowered when people deliberately ball up their units is like saying mutas are overpowered when you build nothing but zealots. During a battle when all the units are in a big firing line, storms hits like 4 guys. Now that there are high HP units such as roaches and marauders, I don't see what's the problem in 20 dps for 4 seconds on 4 measly units at the cost of a whopping 150 gas. Let's look at sc1. Storms do 114 damage at a larger radius, and the average unit has less HP. Storms are fair because in competitive play, people don't clump up all their units, or at least try not to. The same thing applies in sc2.
My suggestion is to keep storm the same, but make the animation smaller. Right now, the storming animation covers a much larger area than it damages and I think that's why people think it's so good. With a smaller area, people don't need to pull back their entire army, they just pull back 4 units. Problem solved. Please enlighten me on how to not clump all the units? The collision size is so much smaller amongst units accompanied by the fact that most units used are ranged in SC2. Hydras could dodge storm much easier in SC1 and were much cheaper. It's nigh impossible not to attack in a ball, they almost automatically do it, even if you just tell them to run to the enemy. It's not collision size it's better pathing. SC1 units could potentially clump like SC2 units do, they just don't because the pathing AI makes them scatter or pause a bit. Also the magic box probably had something to do with it. Blizzard really needs to implement some sort of hold-formation+move command and, on a completely unrelated note, bring back F2-F4 screen position hotkeys. Units definitely couldn't clump as close in SC1. It's both really. Collision size and better pathing makes it much harder to split units. Units clump up more due to less collision size, and the removal of the magic box means that units will automatically try to clump up no matter how they are ordered to move.
I think most people don't understand that Psi,HSM and Fungal growth are suppposed to counter many-cheap-small units. HTs are higher in the tech tree. So if you see HTs then you have to switch to other units which are larger, expensive and deeper in tech. (Thor, BC, air, tanks, Ravens).
Most terrans are stuck with MMM and see everything in MMM perspective. You cannot fight everything with one mix of units. That's totally wrong. Storms supposed to be hard counter to clumped army consisting of low tech cheap units.
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On March 31 2010 14:05 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 13:40 Spawkuring wrote:On March 31 2010 13:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:31 LunarC wrote:On March 31 2010 13:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:14 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, nerfing storms is the worst thing that they can do. Saying psi storms are overpowered when people deliberately ball up their units is like saying mutas are overpowered when you build nothing but zealots. During a battle when all the units are in a big firing line, storms hits like 4 guys. Now that there are high HP units such as roaches and marauders, I don't see what's the problem in 20 dps for 4 seconds on 4 measly units at the cost of a whopping 150 gas. Let's look at sc1. Storms do 114 damage at a larger radius, and the average unit has less HP. Storms are fair because in competitive play, people don't clump up all their units, or at least try not to. The same thing applies in sc2.
My suggestion is to keep storm the same, but make the animation smaller. Right now, the storming animation covers a much larger area than it damages and I think that's why people think it's so good. With a smaller area, people don't need to pull back their entire army, they just pull back 4 units. Problem solved. Please enlighten me on how to not clump all the units? The collision size is so much smaller amongst units accompanied by the fact that most units used are ranged in SC2. Hydras could dodge storm much easier in SC1 and were much cheaper. It's nigh impossible not to attack in a ball, they almost automatically do it, even if you just tell them to run to the enemy. It's not collision size it's better pathing. SC1 units could potentially clump like SC2 units do, they just don't because the pathing AI makes them scatter or pause a bit. Also the magic box probably had something to do with it. Blizzard really needs to implement some sort of hold-formation+move command and, on a completely unrelated note, bring back F2-F4 screen position hotkeys. Units definitely couldn't clump as close in SC1. It's both really. Collision size and better pathing makes it much harder to split units. Units clump up more due to less collision size, and the removal of the magic box means that units will automatically try to clump up no matter how they are ordered to move. I think most people don't understand that Psi,HSM and Fungal growth are suppposed to counter many-cheap-small units. HTs are higher in the tech tree. So if you see HTs then you have to switch to other units which are larger, expensive and deeper in tech. (Thor, BC, air, tanks, Ravens). Most terrans are stuck with MMM and see everything in MMM perspective. You cannot fight everything with one mix of units. That's totally wrong. Storms supposed to be hard counter to clumped army consisting of low tech cheap units.
Thors BC end tech both cost shit tones of min/gas can't mass them or get good #'s to fight with them in any normal game. Tanks are agian alot of min/gas can get the #'s in normal games to do well with them but for most part tanks are VERY meh vs toss and you need ground units to support them MM balls without the MM balls they are worthless unless on def.
ravens caster units lol Banshess cool and all but get taken down easy by stalkers/sents for most part only used for harsments.
Problem for terran is our mech blows big time very bad lol everything is really support to the MM ball /shrug
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On March 31 2010 14:16 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 14:05 hellitsaboutme wrote:On March 31 2010 13:40 Spawkuring wrote:On March 31 2010 13:38 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:31 LunarC wrote:On March 31 2010 13:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 13:14 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, nerfing storms is the worst thing that they can do. Saying psi storms are overpowered when people deliberately ball up their units is like saying mutas are overpowered when you build nothing but zealots. During a battle when all the units are in a big firing line, storms hits like 4 guys. Now that there are high HP units such as roaches and marauders, I don't see what's the problem in 20 dps for 4 seconds on 4 measly units at the cost of a whopping 150 gas. Let's look at sc1. Storms do 114 damage at a larger radius, and the average unit has less HP. Storms are fair because in competitive play, people don't clump up all their units, or at least try not to. The same thing applies in sc2.
My suggestion is to keep storm the same, but make the animation smaller. Right now, the storming animation covers a much larger area than it damages and I think that's why people think it's so good. With a smaller area, people don't need to pull back their entire army, they just pull back 4 units. Problem solved. Please enlighten me on how to not clump all the units? The collision size is so much smaller amongst units accompanied by the fact that most units used are ranged in SC2. Hydras could dodge storm much easier in SC1 and were much cheaper. It's nigh impossible not to attack in a ball, they almost automatically do it, even if you just tell them to run to the enemy. It's not collision size it's better pathing. SC1 units could potentially clump like SC2 units do, they just don't because the pathing AI makes them scatter or pause a bit. Also the magic box probably had something to do with it. Blizzard really needs to implement some sort of hold-formation+move command and, on a completely unrelated note, bring back F2-F4 screen position hotkeys. Units definitely couldn't clump as close in SC1. It's both really. Collision size and better pathing makes it much harder to split units. Units clump up more due to less collision size, and the removal of the magic box means that units will automatically try to clump up no matter how they are ordered to move. I think most people don't understand that Psi,HSM and Fungal growth are suppposed to counter many-cheap-small units. HTs are higher in the tech tree. So if you see HTs then you have to switch to other units which are larger, expensive and deeper in tech. (Thor, BC, air, tanks, Ravens). Most terrans are stuck with MMM and see everything in MMM perspective. You cannot fight everything with one mix of units. That's totally wrong. Storms supposed to be hard counter to clumped army consisting of low tech cheap units. Thors BC end tech both cost shit tones of min/gas can't mass them or get good #'s to fight with them in any normal game. Tanks are agian alot of min/gas can get the #'s in normal games to do well with them but for most part tanks are VERY meh vs toss and you need ground units to support them MM balls without the MM balls they are worthless unless on def. ravens caster units lol Banshess cool and all but get taken down easy by stalkers/sents for most part only used for harsments. Problem for terran is our mech blows big time very bad lol everything is really support to the MM ball /shrug
Then why not to buff terran mech? Which is more reasonable than nerfing others. Seriously don't understand blizs -_-
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Why is it absolutely necessary that Terrans should be able to go full mech? If slow pushing isn't your style, then by all means, make more MMMs, but don't complain about units being weak because you're not willing to use them where they shine.
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'Make more MMMs' - that's what I don't like in recent terran games. So boring, just trying to outmass opponent. Not much of micro, not much of action. Stim-focus-run, Stim-focus-run, Stim-focus-run...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 31 2010 13:20 Chairman Ray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 13:17 Plexa wrote:
So this stops the fast expand 6-7 rax marauder build TvP how.....? Now marauders need one extra hit to take down photon cannons! YAAAAARRRRRRR
looooooool
Storm sucks so hard against Marauder/Medivac now thanks to stim and micro. It's like Blizzard don't want us to use anything other than robotics units. Furthermore, EMP just rapes what little dignity Storm has left.
ugh
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On March 31 2010 14:40 hellitsaboutme wrote:
'Make more MMMs' - that's what I don't like in recent terran games. So boring, just trying to outmass opponent. Not much of micro, not much of action. Stim-focus-run, Stim-focus-run, Stim-focus-run...
I don't think you read my post.
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storm is soooo bad now T T
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It's not that "Storm is so bad now", rather that "storm was so ridiculously good and Blizzard realized it and toned it down."
Seriously, SC1 storm was like watching the slow tide roll in, but SC2 storm is much faster and effective now. Especially since it's harder to spot HT because of the more crowded units now.
But seriously, what about Terran tanks? The original spine of the Terran army?
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On March 31 2010 14:59 Wings wrote:
It's not that "Storm is so bad now", rather that "storm was so ridiculously good and Blizzard realized it and toned it down."
Seriously, SC1 storm was like watching the slow tide roll in, but SC2 storm is much faster and effective now. Especially since it's harder to spot HT because of the more crowded units now.
But seriously, what about Terran tanks? The original spine of the Terran army?
how the hell is it hard to spot an HT? Blizzard made them these flashy units with a fucking billowing cape behind them to make them stand out.
they look nothing like zlots, stalkers, sentries, or immortals.
what's hard to spot are ghosts in the middle of a terran bio blob. HT's stick out like sore thumbs in comparison
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 31 2010 14:59 Wings wrote:
It's not that "Storm is so bad now", rather that "storm was so ridiculously good and Blizzard realized it and toned it down."
Seriously, SC1 storm was like watching the slow tide roll in, but SC2 storm is much faster and effective now. Especially since it's harder to spot HT because of the more crowded units now.
But seriously, what about Terran tanks? The original spine of the Terran army?
What? Storm wasn't that great before the nerf, it was barely seeing use and now with the nerf it's completely useless. Given that the colossus still rapes everything there is z-e-r-o reason to tech templar anymore. It's more costly, less effective and takes longer to become effective.
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HEY in case anyone was wondering, ZvP one hatch spire, no zerglings, just make spine crawlers. like 6 or 7 of them
Zerg is overpowered as shit now. i used to have no problems with zerg, now this matchup is trash. I've been arguing that the game is balanced amongst these haters this whole time, but this patch fucked things up.
spine crawlers are riDICULOUSLY strong. and muta are too fast and strong. this is unbelievable.
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To those complaining about storm; look at it this way.
It's not -meant- to be imbalanced. ^_^
All you have to do is throw down a few extra now and then Terran (i can't speak for zerg) can't really get out of it, smartcasting makes 'storm blankets' very easy to do, which means storm must be weaker than it was in sc1.
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People are always so quick to use the term overpowered, it's truly saddening.
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On March 31 2010 15:26 mOnion wrote:
HEY in case anyone was wondering, ZvP one hatch spire, no zerglings, just make spine crawlers. like 6 or 7 of them
Zerg is overpowered as shit now. i used to have no problems with zerg, now this matchup is trash. I've been arguing that the game is balanced amongst these haters this whole time, but this patch fucked things up.
spine crawlers are riDICULOUSLY strong. and muta are too fast and strong. this is unbelievable.
So like, turtling on 1 base to get to muta with spine crawlers.. Why not go 1-2 stargate pheonix? Pretty much lol's at muta from only 2 geysers. Not like defending off 2 base with spine crawlers, he's not at an economic advantage so you can expo even faster than him.
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On March 31 2010 15:39 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 15:26 mOnion wrote:
HEY in case anyone was wondering, ZvP one hatch spire, no zerglings, just make spine crawlers. like 6 or 7 of them
Zerg is overpowered as shit now. i used to have no problems with zerg, now this matchup is trash. I've been arguing that the game is balanced amongst these haters this whole time, but this patch fucked things up.
spine crawlers are riDICULOUSLY strong. and muta are too fast and strong. this is unbelievable. So like, turtling on 1 base to get to muta with spine crawlers.. Why not go 1-2 stargate pheonix? Pretty much lol's at muta from only 2 geysers. Not like defending off 2 base with spine crawlers, he's not at an economic advantage so you can expo even faster than him.
scouting is impossible. when i see gas like that i'm not thinking muta, i'm thinking banelings or power roaches.
its basically a coin flip.
argh sorry, in in rage mode, so my "take advice" muscles arent working.
ill try and see if i can work 2 stargates into this.
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On March 31 2010 13:07 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 13:07 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 31 2010 12:54 danl9rm wrote:On March 31 2010 12:20 FabledIntegral wrote:
I miss speedlots being so good, I do agree with the general feeling that SC2 has become more of a ranged vs ranged game.
dude, speedlots are good! they absolutely force terran to get either hellions(and ruin their perfect little mmm force) or more marines(and the more marines terran has, the more vulnerable to coloxen©/storm) There are no speedlots.... chargelots sound stupid
lol, that was worth a chuckle
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On March 31 2010 15:41 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 15:39 Slayer91 wrote:On March 31 2010 15:26 mOnion wrote:
HEY in case anyone was wondering, ZvP one hatch spire, no zerglings, just make spine crawlers. like 6 or 7 of them
Zerg is overpowered as shit now. i used to have no problems with zerg, now this matchup is trash. I've been arguing that the game is balanced amongst these haters this whole time, but this patch fucked things up.
spine crawlers are riDICULOUSLY strong. and muta are too fast and strong. this is unbelievable. So like, turtling on 1 base to get to muta with spine crawlers.. Why not go 1-2 stargate pheonix? Pretty much lol's at muta from only 2 geysers. Not like defending off 2 base with spine crawlers, he's not at an economic advantage so you can expo even faster than him. scouting is impossible. when i see gas like that i'm not thinking muta, i'm thinking banelings or power roaches. its basically a coin flip. argh sorry, in in rage mode, so my "take advice" muscles arent working. ill try and see if i can work 2 stargates into this.
Sorry to blow wind when the fire's burning but perhaps it's time to reset your way of thinking? Clearly the patch really changed game dynamics as well as player mindset (think of how many people want to adjust their strat to try out changed units). Use this info to your advantage and reset your way of thinking about your own strat. Like another poster said, if spine crawlers are stopping your normal build, adjust it to account for something that was probably non-existent when you made the build.
Give it time to sink in before you give up your neutrality 
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On March 31 2010 15:32 BentoBox wrote:
People are always so quick to use the term overpowered, it's truly saddening.
Indeed we called vultures OPed in sc1. Then we called science vessels OPed. Then we called arbitors OPed. Then we called mutalisks OPed.
Hmmm... What are we talking about again?
On topic:
I think I know what Blizzard wants SC2 to be
Step 1 nerf marines
Step 2 nerf Protoss' counter against low hp units (collosus and psi storm)
Step 3 nerf Roaches
Step 4 Boost static defence
Result: Tech and less cheese/quick rush, at the same time making tier 1 viable late game
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EPT
