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Judging from these forums, watching streams and my own experience with the beta I think it's safe to say that Zerg is the most powerful race at the moment. A lot of different theories are out there but I haven't seen what I'm about to present discussed very much.
Basically nearly every Zerg combat unit deals normal damage, no bonus vs a specific armor type. While some might say that bonus damage is good, it really seems like a broken system when Zerg seem to be exempt from it. A Protoss won't go colossus against my tanks, just as I wouldn't use tanks against mass speedlots. Why? Because his colossus won't get his damage bonus against my tanks, just like my tanks won't get a bonus from shooting zealots. So what is established here is a typical hard-counter system. If I see you go for mass colossus I will respond with tanks, and you will then respond with zealots, and so on.
So what does this have to do with Zerg? Well since pretty much all the Zerg units don't have a bonus, it also means they don't have a penalty. No matter what unit composition I try to use, hydralisks will always deal 12 damage a hit against it. Roaches will do 16, broodlords 25, etc. Basically this lets the Zerg still have a pretty good chance at winning any fight against any unit composition with any standard composition they choose to use.
Now I fully understand that the beta has been out for only around 3 weeks and it's hard to concretely say something is overpowered since no one has tried all the options yet. Even if I'm wrong and Zerg aren't overpowered, this is at the very least inconsistent. Terran and Protoss are play one game with both armor types that take different amounts of damage and attack types that deal different amounts of damage. The Zerg are in their own world where they take different amounts of damage but always deal full damage. Opinions?
Just a little tangent.... Why the hell do hydras outrange marines? Where is my marine range upgrade? Why do aliens that use spines shoot farther than some futuristic assault rifle? Why to big bulky guys with grenade launchers shoot farther than some futuristic assault rifle? Why are my marines constantly getting caught up behind marauders running into each other and not shooting because the AI can't get them in range? Combo +1 range with the combat shield upgrade, up the cost by 100/100 and call it something like "Advanced Standard Issue Equipment", this is retarded.
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I agree that the hard-counter system is very unsavory and almost forces certain tech paths in many match-ups, limiting creativity of builds.
Why are my marines constantly getting caught up behind marauders running into each other and not shooting because the AI can't get them in range?
Stop A-moving. Micro your army.
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On March 09 2010 16:39 sleeepy wrote:
Basically nearly every Zerg combat unit deals normal damage, no bonus vs a specific armor type. While some might say that bonus damage is good, it really seems like a broken system when Zerg seem to be exempt from it. A Protoss won't go colossus against my tanks, just as I wouldn't use tanks against mass speedlots. Why? Because his colossus won't get his damage bonus against my tanks, just like my tanks won't get a bonus from shooting zealots. So what is established here is a typical hard-counter system. If I see you go for mass colossus I will respond with tanks, and you will then respond with zealots, and so on.
I find this hilarious since neither the tank nor the colossus got any bonus damage against targets... (I hope you don't use unsieged tanks)
Contrary to what people on this forum seems to believe special damage types are no more present in starcraft 2 than in starcraft 1 and neither do they have stronger numbers now than in starcraft 1. Zerg had mainly normal damage units in both games, terran had mainly special damage units in both games, protoss was in between in both games.
Look, how many normal damage type units did terran have in sc1? They had the marine, half of goliath and wraith and they had the battlecruiser. ~3 units, they have more normal damage units now. How many special damage type units did zerg have? They had the sunken colony and the hydralisk, also very similarly how they are now but they gained a few with special damage.
I don't understand why people whine so much about this... (Not that that whining have much to do with your post, I am just pointing it out that it was like this in sc1 too)
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On March 09 2010 16:53 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 16:39 sleeepy wrote:
Basically nearly every Zerg combat unit deals normal damage, no bonus vs a specific armor type. While some might say that bonus damage is good, it really seems like a broken system when Zerg seem to be exempt from it. A Protoss won't go colossus against my tanks, just as I wouldn't use tanks against mass speedlots. Why? Because his colossus won't get his damage bonus against my tanks, just like my tanks won't get a bonus from shooting zealots. So what is established here is a typical hard-counter system. If I see you go for mass colossus I will respond with tanks, and you will then respond with zealots, and so on. I find this hilarious since neither the tank nor the colossus got any bonus damage against targets... (I hope you don't use unsieged tanks) Contrary to what people on this forum seems to believe special damage types are no more present in starcraft 2 than in starcraft 1 and neither do they have stronger numbers now than in starcraft 1. Zerg had mainly normal damage units in both games, terran had mainly special damage units in both games, protoss was in between in both games.
He's complaining about Zerg not the other races. But I see your point. Maybe he should be comparing the Immortal to every armored unit in existence.
On a completely unrelated note, I've seen Hellions with the Infernal Igniter upgrade trash Zealots. Just place them in front of the tanks and use the tanks to take care of the Colossi.
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Its because zerg is based on swarm-plays and units are spent fast.
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Contrary to what people on this forum seems to believe special damage types are no more present in starcraft 2 than in starcraft 1 and neither do they have stronger numbers now than in starcraft 1. Zerg had mainly normal damage units in both games, terran had mainly special damage units in both games, protoss was in between in both games.
This isn't technically true, there was nothing in Sc1 as drastic as say, the immortal's bonus to armored.
Still, OP, seriously, when you start off with an example thats blatantly incorrect, it makes me question how thoroughly you have actually investigated this issue.
EDIT: I stand corrected on the first point, but it certainly SEEMS more drastic, maybe it has to do with the great amount of damage being dealt.
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On March 09 2010 17:34 sob3k wrote:
This isn't technically true, there was nothing in Sc1 as drastic as say, the immortal's bonus to armored.
Concussive damage is 4x as effective against small units as against large units. Immortals are only 2.5x as effective against armored compared to other stuff.
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I hope everybody realises zerg is #1 race atm lol.
So many options who are all good and do ok vs "its counter strats". IMO.
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Isn't the armor and size for sc1 different then sc2
in sc1
small units took extra dmg from concussive
large units took extra dmg from explosive
small units took reduced dmg from explosive
large units took reduced from concussive
and everyone took everything from normal
in sc2 i think it's just armor types and certain units do + dmg over their normal dmg ionno i things haven't been to clear
i'm just thinking that the dmg reduction works diff although it may be the same haven't put too much thought into it.
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On March 09 2010 17:40 _EmIL_ wrote:
I hope everybody realises zerg is #1 race atm lol.
So many options who are all good and do ok vs "its counter strats". IMO.
must be why there are so many protoss people in rank 1 in their divisions with high win raitos
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On March 09 2010 16:39 sleeepy wrote:
So what does this have to do with Zerg? Well since pretty much all the Zerg units don't have a bonus, it also means they don't have a penalty. No matter what unit composition I try to use, hydralisks will always deal 12 damage a hit against it. Roaches will do 16, broodlords 25, etc. Basically this lets the Zerg still have a pretty good chance at winning any fight against any unit composition with any standard composition they choose to use.
This is also not true, while they may not DEAL any bonus damage, the types of bonus damage they can RECEIVE imposes a counter system in the same way. Roaches deal 16 dmg vs everything, but they will get destroyed by marauders and immortals due to their armored status, hydras deal 12 regular damage to everything, but an upgraded pack of hellions will torch them in one shot.
The bonus damage is only PART of a counter system that takes into account unit size, speed, range, and armor type. Just because many zerg units don't deal bonus damage does not mean they "have a pretty good chance of winning any fight against any unit composition."
Zerg may be overpowered due to a combination of factors, but your argument is half-baked and flat out not true.
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Let us look at SC1:
ling - normal dmg
hydra - explosive
muta - normal + bounce
ultra - normal
lurker - normal + splash
drone - normal
guardian - normal
scourge - normal
wow SC1 zerg so fucking imbalanced
(uncommonly used)
broodling - normal
infested terran - explosive + splash
devourer - explosive
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SC2 =/= SC1
there's some big differences in the damage output of units, because SC2 is a new game.
Comparing roaches to hydralisks or zerglings or whatever from SC1 is retarded.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Nice example fontong.
I really think its too early to tell, the only thing I personally hate is how much more competent Hydralisks are vs Air than any other unit in the game seems to be -_-;;
Yes I know a single archon is prolly better than a single hydra, but it costs a shit fucking load of money and 4 supply and the range of it is more like a stupid joke kekeke
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On March 09 2010 18:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice example fontong.
I really think its too early to tell, the only thing I personally hate is how much more competent Hydralisks are vs Air than any other unit in the game seems to be -_-;;
Yes I know a single archon is prolly better than a single hydra, but it costs a shit fucking load of money and 4 supply and the range of it is more like a stupid joke kekeke
one funny thing is, hydra does alot better than stalker against banshees, and stalker is even meant to counter it
personally i find ultralisks and hydralisks just slightly too good. mass hydra was good in pvz even tho they made half dmg vs zea. now they do 12 dmg and full dmg so i can only imagine how much harder it must be
roaches r supposed to do better against marine medivac but im starting to think masshydra is better than massroach just because of the range and fast attack speed
id like if hydra got +dmg vs armored like in sc1 or that roach got +dmg vs bio or small. it feels like its hard to split them apart when it comes to counterplaying
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On March 09 2010 16:39 sleeepy wrote:
Judging from these forums, watching streams and my own experience with the beta I think it's safe to say that Zerg is the most powerful race at the moment. A lot of different theories are out there but I haven't seen what I'm about to present discussed very much.
Basically nearly every Zerg combat unit deals normal damage, no bonus vs a specific armor type. While some might say that bonus damage is good, it really seems like a broken system when Zerg seem to be exempt from it. A Protoss won't go colossus against my tanks, just as I wouldn't use tanks against mass speedlots. Why? Because his colossus won't get his damage bonus against my tanks, just like my tanks won't get a bonus from shooting zealots. So what is established here is a typical hard-counter system. If I see you go for mass colossus I will respond with tanks, and you will then respond with zealots, and so on.
So what does this have to do with Zerg?
Answer: Zerg is the hardest race to play
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On March 09 2010 18:30 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 18:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice example fontong.
I really think its too early to tell, the only thing I personally hate is how much more competent Hydralisks are vs Air than any other unit in the game seems to be -_-;;
Yes I know a single archon is prolly better than a single hydra, but it costs a shit fucking load of money and 4 supply and the range of it is more like a stupid joke kekeke one funny thing is, hydra does alot better than stalker against banshees, and stalker is even meant to counter it personally i find ultralisks and hydralisks just slightly too good. mass hydra was good in pvz even tho they made half dmg vs zea. now they do 12 dmg and full dmg so i can only imagine how much harder it must be roaches r supposed to do better against marine medivac but im starting to think masshydra is better than massroach just because of the range and fast attack speed id like if hydra got +dmg vs armored like in sc1 or that roach got +dmg vs bio or small. it feels like its hard to split them apart when it comes to counterplaying
except hydralisk now move slower perma and zealots not only attack better but have a charge ability which just to love to surround slow units.
i'm still fuzzy on how +dmg differs from dmg bonus and dmg reduction as far as i know there is no dmg reduction besides against the - dmg from your armor which is fundamentally diff from bw.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 09 2010 18:30 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 18:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice example fontong.
I really think its too early to tell, the only thing I personally hate is how much more competent Hydralisks are vs Air than any other unit in the game seems to be -_-;;
Yes I know a single archon is prolly better than a single hydra, but it costs a shit fucking load of money and 4 supply and the range of it is more like a stupid joke kekeke one funny thing is, hydra does alot better than stalker against banshees, and stalker is even meant to counter it
Imagine if wraiths would have owned goons...
I don't think I've got to say much more about this, right? :[
MIGHT be funny to you as Terran heh, for me as P its more like plain sad tho. ^_-
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On March 09 2010 17:55 Fontong wrote:
Let us look at SC1:
ling - normal dmg
hydra - explosive
muta - normal + bounce
ultra - normal
lurker - normal + splash
drone - normal
guardian - normal
scourge - normal
wow SC1 zerg so fucking imbalanced
(uncommonly used)
broodling - normal
infested terran - explosive + splash
devourer - explosive
ling - damage 5 (iirc)
hydra - damage 10, with penalty for small units
muta - damage 9 & second tier unit
ultra - relatively low damage, 3rd tier unit
lurker - 2nd tier, high damage BUT You can't A-move a bunch of them(!)
drone - no comment
guardian - 3rd tier, perfectly acceptable as it has many flaws
scourge - many flaws
Compare that to:
Roach - 1.5 tier, FUCKING 16 DAMAGE (i hope op is not wrong), perfect for A-move
Hydra - 2nd tier, 12 damage, perfect for A-move
That's what sucks... or we need to find the flip side of the story.
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On March 09 2010 18:30 MorroW wrote:
personally i find ultralisks and hydralisks just slightly too good.
No one goes Ultras.
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EPT
