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On March 09 2010 22:15 jabberwokie wrote:
When I had just started I deffinetely felt this way: that zerg is imba but after 400+ games I really just don't think it's the case. I feel it is the natural first impression but that's because of the narrow view that a first impression provides. Yes if you don't keep scouting the zerg to know what they can do, like mutas; then if he does something you are totaly unprepared for you get screwed... is this new? for everything zerg can do there are counters. Though in my opinion it might be prudent to raise the cost of hatcheries as they now more then ever are all powerfull structures for zerg players.
Zerg buildings are very expensive - spawning pool 200 + drone which is 100 more then the other races and it goes on.
I also don't like that toss are the only race that can't build their military structure before their supply due to the power requirement issue. I would like to see nexus become a power source.though to be clear I don't feel it should provide any additional supply.
Well I'm almost 200 games in #3 (tied for #2 currently in gold) and I feel like they are a little bit power overwhelming still... nerd just a tiny bit pleaseee
butttt as to the nexus supplying psi... sounds cool!
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I'm not quite sure if they should decrease the damage of roaches. To my impression they are very strong against Protoss and nerf them would give Zerg propably a huge disadvantage against Terran.
IMHO they should decrease the speed of roaches so they are not faster than a zealot and no longer abled to do hit and run against almost any tech 1 unit. That would compensate their strength regarding their hilarious low cost.
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On March 09 2010 16:39 sleeepy wrote:
Why the hell do hydras outrange marines? Where is my marine range upgrade? Why do aliens that use spines shoot farther than some futuristic assault rifle? Why to big bulky guys with grenade launchers shoot farther than some futuristic assault rifle? Why are my marines constantly getting caught up behind marauders running into each other and not shooting because the AI can't get them in range? Why wouldn't it?
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This whole zerg is overpowered thing is getting old. If they are overpowered, I'm certainly not feeling it. I'm assuming it is coming from the protoss players of which there are double the number of zerg, and so they are skewing the results. I'd like to see a poll that says I am ZTP and I think ZTP is overpowered, with 9 options, so that we could get some real results.
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On March 09 2010 21:52 TheComeback wrote:
I highly agree, zerg is very overpowered. As protoss, if I dont EXPECT or SCOUT muta and they go muta and im not prepared for it... It's pretty much GG. also The roaches deal too much damage and so do hydras.. I believe they should nerf the hydra and roaches and buff the zerglings a little bit honestly, kuz they pop when u step on them.
Observers don't require a special building, and zerg don't get stealth detection for free in SC 2 (Olords have to be morphed).
You can scout for mutas, or anything else, and if not doing so means auto losing, then why not do it?
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On March 09 2010 18:30 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 18:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice example fontong.
I really think its too early to tell, the only thing I personally hate is how much more competent Hydralisks are vs Air than any other unit in the game seems to be -_-;;
Yes I know a single archon is prolly better than a single hydra, but it costs a shit fucking load of money and 4 supply and the range of it is more like a stupid joke kekeke one funny thing is, hydra does alot better than stalker against banshees, and stalker is even meant to counter it personally i find ultralisks and hydralisks just slightly too good. mass hydra was good in pvz even tho they made half dmg vs zea. now they do 12 dmg and full dmg so i can only imagine how much harder it must be roaches r supposed to do better against marine medivac but im starting to think masshydra is better than massroach just because of the range and fast attack speed id like if hydra got +dmg vs armored like in sc1 or that roach got +dmg vs bio or small. it feels like its hard to split them apart when it comes to counterplaying
why ultralisks? Honestly I find them a lil underwhelming, against 5-10 tanks mixed in the mmm ball broodlord seems to be way better than ultralisks. Especially because you have like 10+ dropships hovering over ur army anytime anyways, so if u are about to get raped by ultras, load up and fly elsewhere. Even with speed upgrade, ultras arent as mobile as in sc1 anymore.
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I agree with the hydralisk point, but I think this is an attempt by blizzard to make air units more friendly, I learned quickly stalkers <<<<<<<<<<< air units. Hydras >>>>>> air units.
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One small but notable difference between the bonus damage system and the SC1 damage reduction system is the way shields take damage. In SC, shields take full damage from all attacks, while in SC2, shields take the same damage that HP would take. In other words, if you attack a Zealot with a Hellion, the bonus damage is applied to shields and to HP, but if you attack a Stalker with a Hellion, only the base damage is applied to both. The analogous situation for SC would be if the Hellion dealt its bonus damage to the Stalker's shields but not its HP
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On March 10 2010 00:56 onmach wrote:
This whole zerg is overpowered thing is getting old. If they are overpowered, I'm certainly not feeling it. I'm assuming it is coming from the protoss players of which there are double the number of zerg, and so they are skewing the results. I'd like to see a poll that says I am ZTP and I think ZTP is overpowered, with 9 options, so that we could get some real results.
This.
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On March 09 2010 22:09 zee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 21:52 TheComeback wrote:
As protoss, if I dont EXPECT or SCOUT muta and they go muta and im not prepared for it... It's pretty much GG. Wow.. thats exactly like in that game starcraft 1. :o
Protoss players always been the smartest.
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On March 09 2010 16:53 Klockan3 wrote:
Look, how many normal damage type units did terran have in sc1? They had the marine, half of goliath and wraith and they had the battlecruiser. ~3 units, they have more normal damage units now. How many special damage type units did zerg have? They had the sunken colony and the hydralisk, also very similarly how they are now but they gained a few with special damage. This is very true, but just for the sake of complete clarity there's a few other things you need to consider. Zerglings had such an outrageously high attack rate that armor points mattered more against them than anything else. Mutalisks' glaive accomplished the same thing. On top of this, because Zerglings are so cheap an equivalent cost of lings to other units covers a huge surface area, so AOE attacks were more powerful against them. Conversely, Ultralisks had such an extreme amount of armor that anything with low damage and a high rate of fire would perform poorly against them (marines and zealots being the prime examples as far as all practical situations go). There's more to it than just the armor classification that influences what makes a hard counter. Unit size, armor value, speed, and range all play huge factors too.
If you look at the units purely on paper, Siege tanks strictly hard counter ultralisks, and Zealots strictly hard counter siege tanks. Spider mines and Dark Swarm significantly complicate this. From what I've seen so far, I think one of the things that Starcraft 2 is lacking is abilities that complicate the hard counter wheels we've grown so accustomed to ignoring.
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On March 09 2010 21:51 NeoLearner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 21:46 McCrank wrote:
with the abundance of larva you can keep producing 1 and 1 drone while still building an army and keep your money below 100. you also have the option to build 10 drones at once if you can get away with it.
And then get rolled for not having any units able to attack. I thought the problem wasn't so much not having enough drones, but more knowing when to make them. I know Zerg can power drones even better in SC2 (because of spawn larva as you said), but you have to know when to power and when to make units, while Protoss can keep building probes together with zealots.. A simplified view, of course.
And this drone unit timing is a hard aspect of the game how? the hardest part of zerg is bw was micro and cheese countering. In sc2 there is no micro and very little cheese to worry about and its all fairly easy to stop. You mess up 1 attack in bw and it often costs you the game.
In bw you could die to quick mnm attack, bunker rush, proxy gate, proxy rax, 9-10 gate, 2 port wraiths, mnm ferrying, cliff tanking, vults up ramp, quick tank mnm rush, sairs do damage etc.
In sc2 there is less to worry about, you can have the same exp count and win and micro is very minimal.
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On March 10 2010 14:38 DaEm0niCuS wrote:
And this drone unit timing is a hard aspect of the game how? the hardest part of zerg is bw was micro and cheese countering. In sc2 there is no micro and very little cheese to worry about and its all fairly easy to stop. You mess up 1 attack in bw and it often costs you the game.
In bw you could die to quick mnm attack, bunker rush, proxy gate, proxy rax, 9-10 gate, 2 port wraiths, mnm ferrying, cliff tanking, vults up ramp, quick tank mnm rush, sairs do damage etc.
In sc2 there is less to worry about, you can have the same exp count and win and micro is very minimal.
Obviously it is not a problem for advanced players, more a bonus even. Zerg can power superlinear. For beginners this is hard to understand. With Terran/protoss it is almost always a good idea to keep producing SCVs, with Zerg you have to do it in batches. I'm not saying it's wickedly difficult, just that it is harder to understand and master for beginners.
Define cheese? Because I don't see why all the things you say kill you in BW, could not kill you now.
Maybe it doesn't happen so much because now everybody plays SC1's 12 pool instead of 12 hatch? Because that's not an argument.
Same exp count is true. But isn't it a good thing? Was it fair that Zerg forces had to be spread over 4 bases to be able to fight a 2 base opponent?
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EPT
