EPTWhat are people's opinions on this?
Nydus too good?
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
What are people's opinions on this? | ||
micronesia
United States24678 Posts
But yeah they can be really tough haha.... gotta keep those ovies away or at least keep track of when they are coming near you. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
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micronesia
United States24678 Posts
On March 09 2010 10:47 Virtue wrote: I just build supply depots near the edges and if my army it out i pull scv's to kill it Can scvs really kill the worm in 10 seconds with no warning that it's coming? | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 09 2010 10:49 micronesia wrote: Can scvs really kill the worm in 10 seconds with no warning that it's coming? is there a excuse for not knowing he has a nydus? | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
build supply depots at the edge of your base you should always notice it imo there is plenty of warning | ||
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
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Fogul
United Kingdom179 Posts
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Dark.Carnival
United States5095 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27149 Posts
I don't think it is "too" good. Every matchup in SC2 requires you to protect your main more than BW. | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
Edit: Think late game ZvT, even if you play perfectly defending your main/nat (which I think is way way harder than it looks) you'll have a lot of trouble getting even just a third if they can Nydus to whichever base your army isn't at | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
Ok, here's what you do if you scout a nydus in his base and you see a peculiar-looking overlord perched just outside a dimly lit area of your base: First, position all your troops just outside of the sight of the place where he's going to plant it in your base. Your troops should be roughly in the center of your main. Second, resist the urge to destroy the nydus when it pops up. Third, and this is crucial, the very second it's finished building, have your troops attack from 2 separate groups 90 degrees apart from one another. This will allow them to have the perfect arc around the nydus almost instantly. Fourth, scream for joy as he, like an idiot, continues to pour his troops through the mouth of the nydus while you 30v1 all his troops. Fifth, roflstomp his base. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:08 danl9rm wrote: Terran users pay attention Ok, here's what you do if you scout a nydus in his base and you see a peculiar-looking overlord perched just outside a dimly lit area of your base: First, position all your troops just outside of the sight of the place where he's going to plant it in your base. Your troops should be roughly in the center of your main. Second, resist the urge to destroy the nydus when it pops up. Third, and this is crucial, the very second it's finished building, have your troops attack from 2 separate groups 90 degrees apart from one another. This will allow them to have the perfect arc around the nydus almost instantly. Fourth, scream for joy as he, like an idiot, continues to pour his troops through the mouth of the nydus while you 30v1 all his troops. Fifth, roflstomp his base. Ok so assuming the zerg plays horribly and the Terran plays perfectly the Terran gets an advantage? What if you see the Nydus, and see no Overlords around your base? Overlords with speed are reasonably fast and unless you have like 4 vikings patrolling around your base you won't be able to even see them coming (and even then you can miss it) What if he attacks your nat while your entire army is in your main? Why can't he just stop units from popping out in my base and pop them out in his own? (can he not do this?) | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: only allowing you to build it on creep sounds reasonable. yep | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27149 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: only allowing you to build it on creep sounds reasonable. Not only reasonable, but natural too. I simply assumed it would have to be this way (a la nydus in BW) | ||
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zealing
Canada806 Posts
 shows how logical it would be to have it that way | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:53 Manifesto7 wrote: Not only reasonable, but natural too. I simply assumed it would have to be this way (a la nydus in BW) Actually not so much as the nydus worm is like a unit as you build one off the nydus network also why would something that in theory drigs a huge ass hole underground to connect 2 places need creep, seeing as the nydus worm cost 100 gas and mins i would say it's fine as is, although i haven't tried map abusing cliffs near the natural or something with nydus worm. | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:21 bendez wrote: Make couple of vikings and have them kill any overlords flying by. Also you can hear the nydus screech even if it isn't on your screen, so that gives you some time to pull your troops back. Nydus tunnels are very gas heavy (200 for the nydus network and 100 for the tunnel), so if you defend it few times, they'll be out of gas. hope this helps. Vikings will have a hard time preventing speed upgraded overlords from coming in at any angle and getting a few squares of sight on your base. You'd need a lot of Vikings to stop them | ||
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Kimera757
Canada129 Posts
If it turns out too powerful, I'd rather they not force a creep requirement, but instead increase the construction time. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
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DN2perfectionGM
United States233 Posts
it's when you go for second and third expansions that nydus becomes pain to deal with. it's much harder to monitor the new expo. 10 seconds and zerg can spawn unlimited amount of units to distant expansions. so even 2-3 bunkers wont do jack if your main army is off somewhere else. And the worst part is zerg army might make it back to his base on time that you can't even counter. | ||
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 09 2010 12:04 Ballistixz wrote: simple way for blizz to solve this is increase build time to like 30 seconds or have it require creep to be planted. You want solve something without first proving a problem even exists. | ||
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
Keep in mind that the siege tank will pay for itself as long as it stops one nydus worm. | ||
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tertle
Australia328 Posts
Did this once, was amusing | ||
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: only allowing you to build it on creep sounds reasonable. that's what I've thought ever since I heard it didn't need creep :-/ Ovie would need to get above base instead of just in sight, would need to be there for a sec to spread creep, and the creep would be possibly more noticable. Given how many cliff hopping units there are, it may be balanced as it is, but I like needing creep better and would prefer the other races be adjusted to match  | ||
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Kurdran
36 Posts
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Mindrust
United States33 Posts
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emikochan
United Kingdom232 Posts
On March 09 2010 12:35 tertle wrote: Have a dropship near his base, leave rest of units in your base. Wait for nydus sound, run in kill the nydus in his base then kill nydus in your base = his whole army insta dead! Did this once, was amusing Heh, cute  I've seen 4 marines on patrol take the worm down if they catch it early, I'm sticking with the *build supplies around base edge* idea. Yeah it's tough, but then, it costs the same as a nuke (same calldown time?) it should be as devastating as a nuke. | ||
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Sephy90
United States1785 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
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OverShield
Canada41 Posts
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MostDifferent
Norway124 Posts
Try building a sensor tower in your base, and have a little group of 3-4 marines ready to kill it. It's so easy. Also as an added bonus you will often see 1-2 overlords/overseer just outside your base ready to be killed by vikings. Vikings alone isnt a counter though since with speed upgrade I'm sure they'll be able to cast a nydus down, before dying. I've been accused of maphacking twice by zerg players due to this. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On March 09 2010 12:04 Ballistixz wrote: simple way for blizz to solve this is increase build time to like 30 seconds or have it require creep to be planted. lol then it would be useless only used to connect bases late game like the old nydus canal in sc1 | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
Not sure if it's overpowered but it's definitely on the higher edge of powerful. Requiring creep would simply make it a means of fast re-inforcing ala warpgate, since you don't HAVE to put it up inside the terran base. Sensor tower would work to spot the overlords (although that doesn't actually prevent the nydus, just makes you paranoid everytime you see a red blip on the map =P), but if he just sneaks in a changeling the same problem arises. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
On March 09 2010 13:14 jaybrundage wrote: I really think people are overthinking this its just like a protoss recall but slower and with zerg units. Can't the same strats apply O.o Recall is from the arbitor which is expensive as fuck, can be easily killed, and is at the way tippy point of the tech tree. | ||
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malathion
United States361 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:56 zealing wrote: not much to add cause the other posts already cover it but lol at everyone making creep before putting it down shows how logical it would be to have it that wayIf it had been the other way around in SC1, doubtless people would be saying that is the "natural" way | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
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Raz0r
United States287 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
Once you get 4+ bases running, you CANNOT defend them all without seriously splitting up your army, and if you do that you'll simply die should he attack with his main army somewhere. It's a flaw and something has to be done. You can simply abuse this to keep terran infinitely in their base while you just take the map. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
I think uping the time just a little bit can solve the problem. It's not like it's impossible to counter. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27149 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:12 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I don't see how it requiring creep is "natural". Granted, I had no idea that it didn't need creep until yesterday, but it does make sense that it can emerge anywhere seeing how it's a hole dug through the ground and out onto the surface. Why does creep need to be involved for that? The creep acts as the target for the worm so it doesn't get lost while travelling underground | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On March 09 2010 13:29 MeruFM wrote: Recall is from the arbitor which is expensive as fuck, can be easily killed, and is at the way tippy point of the tech tree. Not to mention you can scout more aptly for a recall (you see it flying into your base from a certain direction and can see it beforehand), and also, recall doesn't endlessly stream unlimited amount of units from just SIGHT of an area. I think its a little overpowered (possibly, haven't seen it too much) - either increasing the build time somewhat (to 15/20 seconds), or requiring creep would be fair. | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On March 09 2010 13:45 Raz0r wrote: it is a different case for drops, because drops are airborne so as long as you have map control you'll have more chances to anticipate it, but nydus worm can be rigged in the sense that the opposing player has to always constantly check his base, even progamers have a hard time doing this, as you sometimes see dts kill drones mercilessly, with no alerts. I'm confused by this, if you have enough map control to anticipate/counter a drop how come you can't anticipate the unit flying in to spot for the nydus worm? Can you please elaborate? By the way I really love the new nydus system, I thought it was a good start in the original SC, although I would be open to some tweaks- I think requiring creep is reasonable since you have overlords to drop creep by then anyway, but I would hope the build time would be reduced because of how squishy overlords are. | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:26 BladeRunner wrote: I'm confused by this, if you have enough map control to anticipate/counter a drop how come you can't anticipate the unit flying in to spot for the nydus worm? Can you please elaborate? By the way I really love the new nydus system, I thought it was a good start in the original SC, although I would be open to some tweaks- I think requiring creep is reasonable since you have overlords to drop creep by then anyway, but I would hope the build time would be reduced because of how squishy overlords are. The build time definitely does not need to be reduced, it's already extremely fast | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:37 Kiante wrote: maybe have a fleet of 3-4 vikings that you initially use for harass, ad late game you use for shutting down nydus's so your army can stay out in the field For example, you don't even need an overlord, you can use burrowed roach to spawn the nydus. Another trick is to use a nydus and "queue up" builds (SHIFT + Click). This allows you to build nydus in locations where you don't have vision (you just need initial vision). When the queue comes up, it'll build the nydus regardless of you still having vision of the target location. These are just possibilities that I came up with in 15 seconds, and I don't even play Zerg. Just wait until someone truly creative comes up with something. It'll be nasty. | ||
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
(im terran) | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:47 GG.Win wrote: For example, you don't even need an overlord, you can use burrowed roach to spawn the nydus. Another trick is to use a nydus and "queue up" builds (SHIFT + Click). This allows you to build nydus in locations where you don't have vision (you just need initial vision). When the queue comes up, it'll build the nydus regardless of you still having vision of the target location. These are just possibilities that I came up with in 15 seconds, and I don't even play Zerg. Just wait until someone truly creative comes up with something. It'll be nasty. Hmm I'm surprised that works but I don't really see how it's a big advantage, to get the initial sight you're going to be hinting that a nydus is inc regardless. I think using a changeling to spot for nydus would much more sinister | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:50 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: it's just the new arbiter ffs... (im terran) Except it's no longer late-game tech and can warp in as many unit as the Zerg wants, wherever he has vision. The thing I find hardest to deal with is multiple worms. If they do one in your main and you pull your army to defend, they could be making another one at your nat or other expos and run their army back into the nydus to teleport again. | ||
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Acies
Australia196 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:12 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I don't see how it requiring creep is "natural". Granted, I had no idea that it didn't need creep until yesterday, but it does make sense that it can emerge anywhere seeing how it's a hole dug through the ground and out onto the surface. Why does creep need to be involved for that? I think uping the time just a little bit can solve the problem. It's not like it's impossible to counter. Why does it make sense that it can burrow between floating islands in space with no ground between them? Requiring creep make sense as a gameplay mechanic and that's the only reason it needs. On March 09 2010 14:26 BladeRunner wrote: I'm confused by this, if you have enough map control to anticipate/counter a drop how come you can't anticipate the unit flying in to spot for the nydus worm? Can you please elaborate? By the way I really love the new nydus system, I thought it was a good start in the original SC, although I would be open to some tweaks- I think requiring creep is reasonable since you have overlords to drop creep by then anyway, but I would hope the build time would be reduced because of how squishy overlords are. That is the difference between an ICBM and a wing of bombers. With nydus, only one ovie has to get through to destroy a base, it is harder to spot and it doesn't have to get as close to the drop zone. | ||
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Vedic
United States582 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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Champi
1422 Posts
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Nafaltar
Germany302 Posts
However a 10 sec warning is often enough to deal with it. Still increasing build time slightly say to 12 seconds might be a reasonable "nerf". | ||
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McCrank
204 Posts
On March 09 2010 14:50 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: it's just the new arbiter ffs... (im terran) While the arbiter could fly around and recall everywhere to harrass. Units didn't do as much damage to buildings as they do in SC2. Get 10 hydras in terran's base and it's gone before you can get any units there to defend. It's like every unit is a 3-3 adrenaling. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10702 Posts
Fly an overlord into someones base, spawn creep and then have it take 10 seconds to build? Yeah right, it may also should automatically display a chat message and ping on the minimap where it's built... | ||
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hns
Germany609 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
anyway i think it's also a mix of expecting what units are coming out of the nydus, hydras in general are as tough as dragoons vs marines in sc1. i think most terrans, myself included don't produce as much when they scan mass hydra production for the fact they still think the ratio's of damage to hp are the same. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Terran has reapers and medivacs, also CCs for SCVs and Vikings which partly are ground units. Protoss has warp-in, recall, stalkers and collossi. SC2 is a lot about mobility and maintaining full vision of your half of the map. If it weren't for nydus, zerg would have a hard time keeping that same pressure of random units coming from everywhere up. If you aren't currently pressuring the zerg so hard that he might be able to nydus you, then why don't you just keep a few units at home? You don't need too many because nyduses are so very fragile anyways. If you consider a nerf, look at values similar to what Nafaltair suggests, 12 seconds or so. Suggestions like creep + 30 seconds are just plain ridiculous. About securing islands... This sounds more like an issue to me. It really depends on the map though. And neither longer build time nor creep requirement stop a zerg from taking a free island. If the nydus "build" time is long enough to kill it with 5-10 SCVs and maybe a banshee or viking if you react quickly then defense of your own island should be ok though. Protoss might be able to cover the island with a few cannons and warp in a few zealots to help kill it in time. | ||
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
Short: In Broodwar you are able to see when shuttle or arbiter are attacking, so you have time to react to one unit. Nydus worms pop extremly fast, its like every 10 seconds hits another arbiter into your base from different locations and trys to recall -> overpowered. | ||
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WolfStar
United Kingdom155 Posts
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zee
201 Posts
On March 09 2010 21:05 HTX wrote: Iam using it to great success recently without any trouble. Right now its to strong because you can take the island expansions, harass your opponent and spawn worms all over the map. You you do it properly your emeny want be able to attack you because you can spawn worms every 10 seconds new in any cormer of his base. If he is attacking then pull your attack army back, defend, produce and hit him again. Short: In Broodwar you are able to see when shuttle or arbiter are attacking, so you have time to react to one unit. Nydus worms pop extremly fast, its like every 10 seconds hits another arbiter into your base from different locations and trys to recall -> overpowered. well you do hear the summoning sound of it even if u dont have sight of it. and if you got units close by u can destroy it rather easily as it doesnt have much health at all. | ||
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
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done
Germany70 Posts
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
I think its not OP but extremely strong! Without it zerg had no real options to harrass or be mobile at all, while warpgates and medivacs would give the other races a huge mobile advantage What about ovi drop? Right now ovi drop is pretty useless, like the 3 different functions to spread creep when you dont need it to spawn the worm. | ||
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Rickilicious
United States220 Posts
But I use it to expo a lot too, and if I scout that my opponent is teching I build it right away and expo with it. While doing so, he'll have scouted it with an obs or detection and be waiting for a drop, if it's nerfed into oblivion there is no sense of threat involved anymore. | ||
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Greth
Belgium318 Posts
I think one of the buildings that is overlooked here is the sensor tower. It can do the spotting of the potential overlords for you over a much wider range than sight range. Then you place one or two siege tanks inside your base to kill any incoming worms in the 10 seconds they need to spawn. It's the same as getting rid of a reaver; a potentially much dangerous reaver - so two tanks are a worthy investment. (Or you could also use a single thor to barrage it to death, and maybe even kill the ovie if it comes too close). | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
Heck, just nerf it to hell. I miss Doom Drops. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
On March 09 2010 23:15 Xyik wrote: I found that the best solution vs. nydus is to keep stray overlords away. With terran, it's also helpful to have a couple siege tanks around with complete vision of your base so that the nydus are taken out before anything gets into your base. I do see nydus being quite difficult to deal with however and am thinking that it probably could be nerfed a little .. Nerf medivac speed as well in that case. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On March 09 2010 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: only allowing you to build it on creep sounds reasonable. I agree. It'd also make for a really cool strategy. load up an ovie with a couple hydras, drop the creep, crop the hydras, attack his expo with a decent force while doing this, and that forces your opponent to be really really careful without it being ridiculously easy to pull off. Now it's just as easy as shooting an overseer to the corner, getting a changeling and popping the nydus in a dark corner somewhere | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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Pupsilein
Germany17 Posts
I also second to NOT change it. There are no other ground unit that can walk up cliffs or jump over to islands in the zerg race. Needing creep will almost make it useless for offensive strategies and makes the zerg rely on air to much. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
It can still be used offensively or to take islands etc but right now buildings die so fast that its just not fair to be able to send your whole army into someones base once they move out. It's not like it can't just be done with overlords. Though your units risk death and it requires more than a few clicks to do it and they cant just be like lol back to base if the opponent tries to counter It takes too much of the calculated risk out of big drops | ||
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
Besides its really easy to stop if you prevent it.. it will have very few hp at start.. something that isnt the case when you fly over with a couple medivacs. It can still be used offensively or to take islands etc but right now buildings die so fast that its just not fair to be able to send your whole army into someones base once they move out. It's not like it can't just be done with overlords. Though your units risk death and it requires more than a few clicks to do it and they cant just be like lol back to base if the opponent tries to counter The very same thing applies for medivacs. You can easily just move your army away when the Zs units come along and go get the next expansion. And I dont really see Z putting up turrets all over the place like T, also.. they dont even have detection like turrets do :/ | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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PizzaHash
Netherlands76 Posts
Not only reasonable, but natural too. I simply assumed it would have to be this way (a la nydus in BW) Its not a building, its a worm... It should be able to come above ground almost anywhere Edit: logically speaking it should be able to emerge beneath buildings, and even attack them! | ||
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Anzat
United States90 Posts
One siege tank can stop any nydus in its range. It will only take one or two tanks to guard your main. One tank for each expansion. This. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
If you make the nydus only buildable on creep again, it makes it a hell of a lot harder to lay one down, and it fits better strategically (can I get an overlord in to lay creep before it dies?). Honestly, all I really have to say is "wtf blizzard?" I'm tempted to switch to zerg just because they're so unreal imbalanced due to nydus. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On March 10 2010 05:59 Floophead_III wrote: On some maps you're going to need a lot more. Also that forces you to leave 3+ tanks behind every time you move out. That's just wrong. Is there a reason why its wrong? | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
It's your fault if you don't keep at least ONE combat unit in your base. People have to learn that keeping a back-up plan is just dandy. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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TheGreatWhiteHope
Brazil2 Posts
On the other side it is the worm´s anus. You load things in there. This changes everything. | ||
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On March 10 2010 06:20 FabledIntegral wrote: Slow the exit rate in which units exit? Make it as slow as normal units drop out of a medivac, etc. Units would still in essence "pour out" if it was unaccounted for but I think it's retarded that you can have in essence an infinite recall, no matter how underpowered Zerg might be otherwise. +1 | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
Not having 3 tanks in your main attacking force, and forcing the terran to NOT have that while zerg will be fine not having anything in their base is a HUGE loss. Of course, if you have a couple more seconds to go back to save your base (a la recall), its fine. But the zerg's nydus just seems a little too strong. Tough to say whether this is due to playing styles or balance though. | ||
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sythax
Scotland57 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
A single tank (non siege mode) will prevent a nydus worm from finishing. If they decided to doom drop you have < 10 seconds to respond before their units are on the ground and they don't come out 1 at a time. I've been playing Terran mostly and with the pressure I keep on my opponents they really don't have the 300 (i think?) gas to spend on the network and worm unless they already had a clear advantage. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On March 10 2010 06:32 Comeh wrote: Not having 3 tanks in your main attacking force, and forcing the terran to NOT have that while zerg will be fine not having anything in their base is a HUGE loss. Of course, if you have a couple more seconds to go back to save your base (a la recall), its fine. But the zerg's nydus just seems a little too strong. Tough to say whether this is due to playing styles or balance though. What happens when you drop them as a Terran? OH, RIGHT, THE SAME THING. The only argument that remains is that you "only" need sight for a Nydus, and that a Nydus has infinite capacity. Well, setting an Overlord on top of the land isn't going to be revolutionary. A Nydus takes time to "build," and that time basically makes up for the fact that you can't see the Overlord sometimes. As for the infinite capacity, that might be a problem. However, Medivacs can heal, and Warp Prisms can emit Pylon power for Warp Gates/Proxy Cannons. I don't know if those factors completely balance out the infinite capacity, but it definitely isn't "lol imba" Stop complaining about being dropped by a Zerg via Nydus; you've been dropping them for ages. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
This isn't a bad idea, I think it's analogous to leaving hts, reavers, and defilers at expansions in bw. While yes it sucks to be a few tanks short, it should be a manageable lack I'd think, not having tried this myself yet. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I've seen some vods of players creeping the area (unnecessarily) before building a nydus and they still pull it off rather well if the Terran doesn't spot it in time. TBH, I think it's really just a less risky version of the Zerg doom drop with speed ovies. | ||
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