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I wanna know what you guys think about the hellion model and the thor in SC2. First off we have the hellion, a flame-shooting dune buggy with an aoe attack. I simply think this unit does not fit in with the rest of the Terran army. This might be slightly biased because I thought the vulture model was so terrific...
Thors are, imo, unnecessary. Their slow, they have a ridiculous turning speed for some reason, and they just don't look visually appealing to me at all. I think marines with medivacs are better at countering air than a thor -_-. I have seen very few top notch terran players actually get a thor. If they need anti air they simply go marines and vikings. Overall, I think thors just flat out need to be replaced.
Poll: Should the hellion model be changed?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Do you like the thor?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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The Thor needs to be smaller.
It's slow turning speed is it's weakness. The fact that having any more than Two Thors cause them to spazz out when trying to move anywhere is frustrating as fuck, also you have to pull of jeesus simcity to stop them getting stuck in your base
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tank should be more powerful
thor should be cheaper and smaller
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I've NEVER liked the Hellion. It looks like a little kids RC car. Just totally plain and uncreative.
As far as the Thor goes, this unit HAD merit when it was more of a super unit, but since then has become tacky and its large size is of no merit.
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On March 08 2010 23:06 iko wrote:
The Thor needs to be smaller.
It's slow turning speed is it's weakness. The fact that having any more than Two Thors cause them to spazz out when trying to move anywhere is frustrating as fuck, also you have to pull of jeesus simcity to stop them getting stuck in your base
slow turning speed? They turn just as fast as anything else, the movement is slow though.
I agree about them getting stuck easily though. In fact tanks get stuck easily too, lot of shit walls when it doesn't seem like it's walling for terran (bunkers/turrets etc).
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Which doesn't make sense to me at all. I mean, I understand that it's a game and none of this has to be purely based in the world of physics, but how could such a large slow unit turn so quickly? lol, just being a little picky, but the thor has many many flaws and I believe that terrans just deserve better antiair.
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I refuse to build Thors. They're a bad joke. Ugly shit.
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I've never liked the idea of the thor. I feel they step on toes with tanks and there is just better anti-air. Either make them more like the goliath (which i dont particularly like) or remove them.
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People (who are in the beta) should comment on Blizzards forum, those two units could use a serious make-over. Also the Collossus looks weird as shit when theres so many of them standing next to each other, or when they're standing over the rest of your army.
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I think a lot of the units could use a tune up or a whole makeover, but I think the thor and hellion deserve special focus right now.
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Whoops, i voted no instead of yes on thors  Thors are cool as hell, moving meatshields that can deal the punishment!
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My biggest problem with the Thor is, why does a unit with a name based on Norse mythology speak in a german accent? ;(
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Hellion rapes workers. Thor is a good 'easy button' when you're way ahead.
I see no reason to change this.
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I WANT MY GOLIATH!!!!!! D:
Damnit goliath, you were so good in starcraft 1, everyone loved you but you just let yourself go.... and now look at you. All you're good for is reminding us in socal we still have arnold as a governor.
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To me the highlight Thor ability that I haven't seen much of is the 250 mm strike cannons.
The fact is the thor can counter any ground unit 1v1 with that special ability. Immortals...no problems. Ultras....can almost kill one in a single barrage. Collossus...toasted.
The fact that it attacks air is great, but to me this ability is what makes it useful. I would never build an army of thors, they are a support unit, not a mainstay.
As for the hellion, people are finding uses for them, but I'm still not that fan of the concept. But hey, I still remember the days of early SC1 where the vulture was considered a newb unit...no "good" player would dare touch them.
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Blizzard added too many Marine models in the increasing power scale.
What I mean is:
Marine < Marauder < Viking < Thor
Thor isn't unique at all, unit just feels like a forced attempt to add another "semi-boss" unit, like mothership or new monstrous ultralisk..
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Sweden33719 Posts
The Thor is fine -_- And it's a fine mainstay unit too.
The Hellion model doesn't bother me, though I wouldn't mind it getting some kind of ability/upgrade.
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But where do thors fit into the terran army? Need anti-air? Why not go marines and medivacs or vikings, they have more mobility and they are easily replaced. Need to defend the ground? Go tanks with hellions or tanks with MMM. Where does the thor fit in?
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On March 08 2010 23:32 Kaniol wrote:Whoops, i voted no instead of yes on thors Thors are cool as hell, moving meatshields that can deal the punishment!
me too. OP is evil
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Yeah Thors are way to big. Blizzard should smoller them.
Helion model is OK with me
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Thor's size is a perk when it comes to repairing them in a fight. You can easily fit a few dozen SCVs around a Thor to keep him up against ridiculous odds.
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But where do thors fit into the terran army? Need anti-air? Why not go marines and medivacs or vikings, they have more mobility and they are easily replaced. Need to defend the ground? Go tanks with hellions or tanks with MMM. Where does the thor fit in?
I am not in beta so these are just guesses. Feel free to dismiss these ideas.
After watching CowGoMoo vs. Oversky, I was thinking about how to deal with that early roach build that Oversky had clearly prepared to deal with CGM's hellion harass. The easy solution is to go heavier maurader since marines do almost nothing to roaches. If the opponent switches back to zerglings, then you should have hellions ready to go.
The natural transition to deal with a maurader/hellion army is to go mutas. This is where the Thor comes in. If you scout the switch even a tiny bit late, then you won't have time to get enough marines out to deal with the mutas. One or two thor's in combination with turrets should be able to protect your main and natural, and also give you an option to push out if you mix a few in with your army.
Just an idea.
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Im really getting tired of having people asking for old sc units back. Its been said a bunch of times and ill say it again this is SC II not SC plus graphics. On a different note though the Thor IS NOT a counter to air. It is just a more versatile tank. As it can shoot both ground and air. But if a unit is going mostly ground with a couple of air units the Thor is the way to go. As appossed to bio which would require different upgrades.
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a shitty dune buggy fits the terrans more than a futuristic hoverbike imo
thor is a cool unit but it's not different enough from other options, i liked it more when it had a super slow turning speed and you made it with an scv. at least that uniqueness made it cooler
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The helion model is fine, the thor is also fine, though i think it looks like shit.
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The Helion is fine, but the model is so terrible and not really starcraftish. It looks like something you'd expect in Dune or C&C.
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On March 08 2010 23:37 MasterZilla wrote:
My biggest problem with the Thor is, why does a unit with a name based on Norse mythology speak in a german accent? ;(
Terrans named their giant robot battle suit thingy after the god of thunder, which makes sense, and the thing happens to be controlled by an Austrian (!) guy. No problem there. (When you ask him if he really is a god, he says yes, but that's a lie :D) You could only ask how it's possible that Austrian guys, no, the same Austrian guy, sits in all of them, but that question would apply to all units/drivers/pilots.
I have to agree though that the Thor as a unit isn't very convincing - big, expensive, slow, a little silly. But in Broodwar there also were a couple of units one wouldn't regularly use, which can be nice too, because these units can be used in surprise tactics, as the opponent doesn't expect them, and for humiliation.
I miss the destructive power of the BW siege tanks btw. Maybe they could give the Thor just a little of that to make it more appealing.
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My only complaint with Thor is the startup time for the special ability that does 500 damage + stuns. Since it's already a "channeled" ability, why not have it start faster? In so many cases, it's more efficient for him to just keep firing normally.
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From the few games I've played, Thors are not very useful. I play Z and a few hydras took down a thor easily. I don't remember what upgrades each person had.
Hellions seems hard to use, micro-wise. T is supposed to have lots of micro oppurtunities right? The stop and shoot thing just completely destroys that and is a let down from BW.
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On March 09 2010 00:49 jaybrundage wrote:
Im really getting tired of having people asking for old sc units back. Its been said a bunch of times and ill say it again this is SC II not SC plus graphics. On a different note though the Thor IS NOT a counter to air. It is just a more versatile tank. As it can shoot both ground and air. But if a unit is going mostly ground with a couple of air units the Thor is the way to go. As appossed to bio which would require different upgrades.
The problem with Thor is that it's very unimaginative and just feels forced into the game as a terran new "ultimate" unit, like mothership or ultralisk.
For example, we can say that Goliath is higher tier version of Goliath in BW.
But in SC2, Thor is like yet another tier of that "robot suit" guy in terran army.
The tiers go like this now : Marine -> Marauder -> Viking -> Thor.
At least Thors were more unique when they needed to be built by SCVs or had that interesting slow turning mechanic, requiring extra micro to counter them with faster units.
Now they are just a wannabe goliath, only with that whole "Boss" unit feel to it.
Maybe I'm just biased against these "boss" units in general, but Thor really feels forced in by Blizzard, just because a lot of casual players love to use these Big/Boss/Hero-like units from other games (Warhammer, C&C, even Warcraft 3)
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yes, replace the thor with the terratron
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helion would be better with firebat sitting on some modified version of old vulture ;D and yea thor blows i didn`t make single one so far :D
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Aesthetically, neither the Thor nor the Hellion really do it for me - although I do like the incinerating corpses of drones and stuff courtesy of the Hellion
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On March 09 2010 01:15 FrogOfWar wrote:
...controlled by an Austrian (!) guy...
Alright, sorry about that  Still bugs me though!
On a serious note, I don't quite get all the hating on the Hellion model.. I think it looks nice.
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I'm slowly warming up to hellions. I just wish the model unit was a tad bit smaller. As for Thors - I feel like they're just teir 2.5 Battlecruisers, with half the tanking ability and half the mobility. =/ They try to incorporate so much of every unit and just flop when going toe to toe with either protoss siege or zerg mass.
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I like how Thors don"t get loaded into Medivacs, but the hang on them. Looks great to see a small Medivac with a Thors dangling on it fly across the map.
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I think the Thor is a great unit and a great concept. Perhaps its role could be slightly more pronounced, but I think it's one of the better SC2 units, concept-wise.
The Hellion's model is pretty stupid, but the unit itself is great.
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I hate Hellions with a passion, they own zerglings/drones so quickly...
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Personally, I always thought that vultures were the worst looking units in SC1(and had by far the most annoying responses). Hellions are a large improvement in my eyes, I don't think they look anything like RC cars... They fit the SC world excellently, as I see it. Think about it, terran worlds have all sorts of backwater colonies and such with zerg problems, right? Well, what deals with zerglings? Firebats. So the next idea; "lets make some faster firebats to deal with rouge zerglings." They also seem like a very useful unit for harassing and anti-ling, with some nice mirco opportunities with their speed and line attack. An extra ability for them could be nice, but not just stamping on spider mines like a lot of people want I don't think.
The thor...I've gone back and forth on... I found it kind of surprising at first, because I didn't think Terrans really had the technology to make a giant mech thing, but it is ten years later and they do have battlecrusiers so...I guess. I think they look pretty awesome alone, but I haven't gotten used to them within the terran army, they are just soooo big.
My biggest issue with the thor is that it is built at the factory. This is pretty ridiculous to me as the thor is bigger than a factory..it makes no sense.. I really think it should be decently smaller, or be built by a scv.(preferred option). I also found it pretty ridiculous seeing a medivac pick up a thor...The thor seemed to shrink, but even so..how does a bitty ship pick up a massive robot..Oh well.
In terms of gameplay I like them both, but hope that the barrage either gets more usable, or people figure out how to use it better, I don't have beta so I can't say which it is, but its a fun concept I think.
PS. To the guy with the "I miss tanks power" thing...Did I miss something?? Why have people decided tanks are terrible or just plain forgotten about them?? I know I don't have beta and all, but I've watched a lot of streams and read the specs and such. I know they are a bit more costly but they actually do more damage(They used to do 60 explosive, so they got half damage against light armor, meaning marines could take a tank shot. Now they do straight 60 damage, which means they one shot a lot of things they used to not, as well as do double the damage they used to vs zealot hp). I also realize that there are more counters to them(immortal shields, good blinks, vikings landing around them maybe) but why has this cause people to ignore them? I think people are going to remember tanks soon enough and realize they are still extremely strong, just needed protection. Exactly like they needed in SC1
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On March 09 2010 04:17 Tin_Foil wrote:
Personally, I always thought that vultures were the worst looking units in SC1(and had by far the most annoying responses). Hellions are a large improvement in my eyes, I don't think they look anything like RC cars... They fit the SC world excellently, as I see it. Think about it, terran worlds have all sorts of backwater colonies and such with zerg problems, right? Well, what deals with zerglings? Firebats. So the next idea; "lets make some faster firebats to deal with rouge zerglings." They also seem like a very useful unit for harassing and anti-ling, with some nice mirco opportunities with their speed and line attack. An extra ability for them could be nice, but not just stamping on spider mines like a lot of people want I don't think.
The thor...I've gone back and forth on... I found it kind of surprising at first, because I didn't think Terrans really had the technology to make a giant mech thing, but it is ten years later and they do have battlecrusiers so...I guess. I think they look pretty awesome alone, but I haven't gotten used to them within the terran army, they are just soooo big.
My biggest issue with the thor is that it is built at the factory. This is pretty ridiculous to me as the thor is bigger than a factory..it makes no sense.. I really think it should be decently smaller, or be built by a scv.(preferred option). I also found it pretty ridiculous seeing a medivac pick up a thor...The thor seemed to shrink, but even so..how does a bitty ship pick up a massive robot..Oh well.
In terms of gameplay I like them both, but hope that the barrage either gets more usable, or people figure out how to use it better, I don't have beta so I can't say which it is, but its a fun concept I think.
PS. To the guy with the "I miss tanks power" thing...Did I miss something?? Why have people decided tanks are terrible or just plain forgotten about them?? I know I don't have beta and all, but I've watched a lot of streams and read the specs and such. I know they are a bit more costly but they actually do more damage(They used to do 60 explosive, so they got half damage against light armor, meaning marines could take a tank shot. Now they do straight 60 damage, which means they one shot a lot of things they used to not, as well as do double the damage they used to vs zealot hp). I also realize that there are more counters to them(immortal shields, good blinks, vikings landing around them maybe) but why has this cause people to ignore them? I think people are going to remember tanks soon enough and realize they are still extremely strong, just needed protection. Exactly like they needed in SC1
Welcome to TL! I like this post, good work!
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(They used to do 60 explosive, so they got half damage against light armor, meaning marines could take a tank shot. Now they do straight 60 damage, which means they one shot a lot of things they used to not, as well as do double the damage they used to vs zealot hp)
It was actually 70 explosive before ... but I think the splash radius is bigger in SC2 anyway. Even if it's not, units clump up more so the same splash radius leads to a lot more damage.
They still get +5 damage per upgrade too.
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At least Thors were more unique when they needed to be built by SCVs or had that interesting slow turning mechanic, requiring extra micro to counter them with faster units.
Now they are just a wannabe goliath, only with that whole "Boss" unit feel to it.
agree with this, was way more interesting when it was built by a scv and had slow turning.
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yah, scvs building them was prettty bad ass
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thors are great as an accessory unit. being a litle smaller could help, but them being so gigantic makes it kinda cool. That being said, mass thor does not work, it's like rushing for bcs, happens too slow. still, it's good to have 1-2 to make sure their air pisses off during your tank/mnm/whatever you're doing push
hellion is fine and has a very necessary role of harass/ling killer.
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SCV building thor was cool idea :/
Just make buildtime long enough so youll get rolled if youd invest to too many at the same time.
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i have only used thors to hold ultras in place. the unit is not cost effective for any other reason in my experience. i dont see size changing anything about its purpose really, it seems pretty irrelevant.
i really like hellions, i dont think this unit gets enough credit. its + dmg vs light is stupid, my only complaint is its attack animation and how when you get more than 5, they get stuck on each other and 2 of them end up not attacking half the time.
i like that my factory doesn't lose purpose late game tvz and i can produce thors rather than losing an scv to build thors.
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*push*
The Thor is atm (with archon) one of the most useless units in the game. You cant use the ability on COlossi cuz the range is not long enough, hes fine against ultras/roaches, but marauder do the job aswell, hes not that great against mutas (well not that bad either but come on :/) in TvT he sucks balls, cuz marauder and tanks crush them easy. Against P hes COMPLETELY useless. I hope blizzard buff Thor or change him in any way, its just boring how it is.
some ideas would be:
a) smaller the size of thor, he clumbs too often and cant fight well with his megasize (imo hes too big for Starcraft its disgusting)
b) give him new ability or increase the range at least to 8~ so he can possible counter colossi at least
c) more attack speed maybe
there are many possibilites just give the Trashmech a fucking role in the game
thx!
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Don't you think it's a bit early in your tl life to be starting polls saying things need to be changed and removed? You give no reasons why the Hellion doesn't fit in with the Terran army or why it's a problem. Your major argument against the Thor is that you think it's ugly, and you claim that M&M is better at countering air but that makes me think you've never tried to fight off well-microed banshees using M&M. If he brings a Viking as well to shoot at your Medivacs what you gonna do brother? Lose your whole ground army and your medivacs or what?
I know Thors don't have a linear place in early or mid game build orders but they definitely have their niche, especially with Strike Cannons which stun and proceed to kill whatever they target. This ability will 1-shot an Immortal or Colossus, and with a couple Thors you can attack a Command Center and kill it while it's stunned before the enemy can lift it off. Thors have two places they're very useful: defending small harass and air attacks in your bases, and attacking valuable targets away from your enemy's main force. Isn't it great that a medivac can carry Thors? If you set up siege tanks on someone's cliff, the main danger you face is a counter-drop to kill the tanks or a close range warp-in, or a small anti-armor air attack. If you place a Thor on the cliff as well, it can murder defenders as they arrive and protect the tanks from small numbers of dropped units or air attacks.
Extremely specialized and vulnerable to large armies of tier 1 units, but highly powerful when properly applied, just like many other units in the game.
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Why don't they just use the Cobra tank model for the Hellion? That thing is awesome looking.
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On March 16 2010 07:49 Gedrah wrote:
Don't you think it's a bit early in your tl life to be starting polls saying things need to be changed and removed? You give no reasons why the Hellion doesn't fit in with the Terran army or why it's a problem. Your major argument against the Thor is that you think it's ugly, and you claim that M&M is better at countering air but that makes me think you've never tried to fight off well-microed banshees using M&M. If he brings a Viking as well to shoot at your Medivacs what you gonna do brother? Lose your whole ground army and your medivacs or what?
I know Thors don't have a linear place in early or mid game build orders but they definitely have their niche, especially with Strike Cannons which stun and proceed to kill whatever they target. This ability will 1-shot an Immortal or Colossus, and with a couple Thors you can attack a Command Center and kill it while it's stunned before the enemy can lift it off. Thors have two places they're very useful: defending small harass and air attacks in your bases, and attacking valuable targets away from your enemy's main force. Isn't it great that a medivac can carry Thors? If you set up siege tanks on someone's cliff, the main danger you face is a counter-drop to kill the tanks or a close range warp-in, or a small anti-armor air attack. If you place a Thor on the cliff as well, it can murder defenders as they arrive and protect the tanks from small numbers of dropped units or air attacks.
Extremely specialized and vulnerable to large armies of tier 1 units, but highly powerful when properly applied, just like many other units in the game.
I didn't know that new members were discouraged from making polls about things, I apologize. If you refer to my first post, you should see why I do not think the Hellion fit in with the rest of the Terran army.
[Esli]a flame-shooting dune buggy
Unless you think a flame-shooting dune buggy sounds like it fits in with the Terran ground forces, than I think that was a pretty valid objection to the Hellion's model.
My major complaint with the Thor was that they were too slow and they didn't accomplish their role well enough. They are simply too easy to focus fire on because of their size so if one was to bring in a large pack of mutas, you could probably focus fire the thor down before it did any serious damage. Of course the solution to this would be to keep the thor with the rest of your army, but shouldn't the thor be able to fend for itself relatively well? In SC, a small pack of Goliaths were very effective against air, whereas the thor can't really defend itself against incoming air forces. I think if Blizzard removed the thor and gave terrans a stronger anti-air mech, the heavy metal build would once again become viable in SC2.
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If you play a 2v2 on twilight fortress you will probably see thors used very strategically. Also, I've seen some terrans in 1v1 do macro wars and try to out expand with turret/thor/tanks. Doesn't happen a lot but it is a viable strategy when you mix in their MMM harrass drops and vikings running around sniping overlords.
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As many other said: Make thor smaller. Make hellion more like vulture please
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A Thor can be made to stand near Missile Turrets inside the mineral line to deter Muta harass. All the SCVs can be set to auto-repair, the instant the Thor or anything else takes damage they will football tackle it with their repair tools. You have to place the turrets so as not to trap any SCVs but they otherwise won't hurt you much at all in terms of total resource gathering. Losing SCVs or tech to Muta harass would hurt more. For 6 supply and 300\200 you get a unit that can kill more than 3 Mutas (which cost 2 supply and 100\100 each) by itself, to say nothing of its power with Turret and SCV support. Thors are available soon after Mutas are available. Cost for cost, Thors demolish Mutas, which means you don't necessarily need to keep your bio ball on patrol at your main to prevent Muta harass, since a sufficient mineral investment (Turrets) and a handful of Thors will ablate the attack while you can harass or kill expansions.
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i hate helion it's ugly as fuck, it moves like a little car...bleah :r
Thor is okay, maybe a little smaller and plz change that accent german + heavy metal combo = fail
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I hate the hellion model
it looks like a retarded go-kart with helium cans stuck onto it
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Thors are conceptually awesome. I don't really see them working too well at the moment though. I'm assuming they'll be reworked a little bit over the next month or so. =)
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I actually like the hellions, reminds me a lot of the Flame ATV from KKnD back in the day. Though I still don't think they are as cool as the vultures (or as useful).
Thors are a strange beast... I really WANT to like them, but I just can't justify using them (slow, expensive, supply). That said, with bnet 2.0 and all, blizzard can observe their usage and statistics. If enough people integrate them (successfully) into builds, then right on I guess.
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Yea I like it how the hellion got a downgrade from an awesome hoverbike to a hotwheels car with an orange super soaker.
it was a damn hoverbike, how much cooler can you get? only a cooler looking hoverbike would suffice.
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the thor model is kind of cool--i have no issue with it. the hellion should be a little more rugged or sleek or something, it looks like a toy. i wont even comment on balance though.
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EPT
