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I posted my thread as a reply here ( I love the hellion ), but I think that a new post is better to express my feelings. If it is not allowed, Mod please delete it.
Be cautious: I don't want to bring back the vulture. I like new things, I like stalker the new dragoon, I like banshee the Avatar hellicopter, and I don't mind science vessel which is one of my favorite units is no longer in the game, for Reaven is as interesting and has some strategical depth. I believe EVERYTHING can be changed, for SC2 is not SC1 in 3D space. What I want is just a replacement as cool as the original vulture, if not, a replacement not as boring as the hellion.
I hate the hellion!
I totally disagree with the OP. Compared with their counterpart in SC1, hellion is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I still remember my first win on Platinum League, where my opponent did a fast hellion drop and all his 4 hellions died to my 6 marines. Yes, his hellions were not upgraded, so their damage output was not that much; his micro may be not good enough, so hellions were not fully used.etc. But when I saw the scene, I'd say f**k! Four vultures with similar micro ability will kill all my marines with even 0 lost.
I really don't want to compare vultrue with hellion, for hellion is just sh*t if vulture was out there. Vulture together with its spider mines is an important factor that shape Terran in Starcraft 1, placing vulture amongst his arsenal,Terran
- has a distinct way of mirco
- has a distinct way to push
- has a distinct way of detection
- has a distinct way of turtling
- has a serial of distinct strategies whose key are vulture micro or spider mines.
And Terran gains
- stronger ability of detection
- stronger ability on map control.
- a more rounded and mobile defensive system.
- A tons more strategy choices.
- bigger chance to win if you got behind.
- bigger chance to survive when facing a much larger invading forces.
- bigger chance to survive when facing special tactics like dt rush or reaver drop.
And the most important thing is, that Terran with vulture is much much more fun!
To the whole game of Starcraft, vulture together with its spider mine:
- severe punish casually Attack Move, even in late game.
- encourage micro no matter you are using vulture or countering them.
- encourage more detection no matter you are countering vultures or you are using them.
- further distinguish the player's skill level, especially when you are a terran player.
Yes, hellions are good when you have a mass of them, or maybe when you have some fancy micro skill in manipulating them, but hellions adds very little to gameplay aspect. They are just something that counter something, and when something countering them arrive, they become scrap.
Someone said that "you can not compare vulture with hellions, because they are totally different things". but you should remember that, on the tech tree, the position for vulture is now taken up by hellion !
Someone even said that you cannot compare A of SC2 to B of SC1, but you should note that it is Starcraft 2, the successor of the original starcraft, not CnC5, warcraft 4 or something totally new.
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some firing buggy, but what I say is just something that springs from my heart after 2 years of close follow and a week of beta experience.
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I think the hellion is better thought of as a (cheap, mobile, fragile) lurker than a vulture. Mind you, they're totally not the same but I think the comparison is more apt than that of the vulture. Like straight-line-move-burrow lurkers and attack-moved vultures, I'm pretty sure straight attack-moved hellions are really bad. Because they aren't as responsive as the hit-and-run vultures, positioning might be more important.
Just my two cents.
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On March 04 2010 03:52 skypacer wrote:
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some firing buggy, .
i lol'ed.
But seriously i agree. I think these things are completely useless. If you have 1 cannon, 1 spine crawler, or 1/2 maurauders these things cant even worker harass. Well they could prob kill1 worker but ill lose all 3-4 of my hellions and will have lost WAY more than the people im harassing.
If they didnt have the weakest, most useless attack, id like them more. Personally id rather drop the flamethrower and have a single marine on one of these... at least then my marines wouldn't have to walk across the maps. Not to mention these things are not fast compared to speedlings or upp'ed zealots, granted zealot's only get quick bursts.. id rather have the zealot in their base killing their workers than this PoS.
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Hellons definitely aren't half as good as Vultures but they're not a useless unit, especially for worker harrass (which vulture was better at, I guess  ) but yea they have problems for sure. They need a speed upgrade and their firing animation needs to be instant imo. The line dmg would still be balanced as they don't have mines.
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The vulture is irreplaceable... hopefully blizzard realizes this :[
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hellions also cost 125, which i think is ridiculous.
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Didn't people think that the vulture sucked right when starcraft first came out and it wasn't until someone (iloveoov i think) started using them to great effect that they became popular? Just give it some time, people will figure out how to micro it and what unit combos its good with and it will become as indispensable as the vulture. I mean, the beta is 2 weeks old today for god sakes.
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This is a new game. The vulture won't be coming back. We need to accept this.
With that out of the way, how can the hellion be improved?
-make attack upgrade default attack
-better unit model, maybe better name?
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On March 04 2010 04:14 hey88 wrote:
hellions also cost 125, which i think is ridiculous.
They're 100 minerals.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Personally I feel the reason Terrans don't have spidermines anymore. Is they don't need them.
They're so much more mobile now. The mines only really helped for the lack of mobility allowing you to slow opponents down en route so you could unsiege and roll slowly back into place.
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I agree that the vulture great but I'll be fine with just a model change tbh. So far they look like toy dune buggys.
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God that youtube video made me laugh so hard.
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I hate the stalker!
Compared with their counterpart in SC1, stalker is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I still remember my first loss to protoss in BW, where my opponent made a crapton of dragoons and they rolled over me. No, neither of us were upgrading, so my tank damage output was not that much; our micro may not have been good enough to do anything other than attack-move, so my army was not fully used.etc. But when I saw the scene, I'd say f**k! If I had similar number of tanks I might have still lost.
I really don't want to compare dargoon with stalker, for stalker is just sh*t if dragoon was out there. Dragoon together with zealots is an important factor that shape Terran in Starcraft 1, placing dragoon amongst his arsenal, Protoss
- has a distinct way of mirco
- has a distinct way to push
- has a distinct way of bugging up in pathing
- has a distinct way of sometimes not firing properly
- has a distinct way of turtling
- has a serial of distinct strategies whose key are dragoon micro
And Protoss gains
- stronger ability on map control
- a more rounded and mobile defensive (and offensive) system
- A stons more strategy choices
- bigger chance to win if you got behind
- bigger chance to survive when facing a much larger invading forces.
- bigger chance to survive when facing special tactics like nuke rush or lurker drop.
And the most important thing is, that Protoss with dragoons and crappy AI is much much more fun!
To the whole game of Starcraft, dragoon together with its crappy AI:
- sever punish casually Attack Move, especially in late game.
- encourage micro no matter you are using dragoon or countering them.
- encourage more units no matter you are countering dragoons or you are using them.
- further distinguish the player's skill level, especially when you are a protoss player.
Yes, stalkers might be good because of blink, or maybe when you have some fancy observer to jump cliffs, but stalkers adds very little to gameplay aspect. They are just something that counter something, and when something countering them arrive, they become scrap.
Someone said that "you can not compare dragoon with stalker, because they are totally different things". but you should remember that, on the tech tree, the position for dragoon is now taken up by stalker!
Someone even said that you cannot compare A of SC2 to B of SC1, but you should note that it is Starcraft 2, the successor of the original starcraft, not CnC5, warcraft 4 or something totally new.
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some blinking spider, but what I say is just something that springs from my heart after 2 years of close follow and a week of beta experience.
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On March 04 2010 04:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Didn't people think that the vulture sucked right when starcraft first came out and it wasn't until someone (iloveoov i think) started using them to great effect that they became popular? Just give it some time, people will figure out how to micro it and what unit combos its good with and it will become as indispensable as the vulture. I mean, the beta is 2 weeks old today for god sakes.
This isn't a valid argument for reasons Waxangel touched on in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301
People are literally 100 times better at RTS games in general than they were when SC was still developing. We're now knowledgable enough about the way things work to take a look at the Hellion, see the way it takes 2 seconds to start firing and the way it can't even outrun speedlings and say "This unit isn't very good", and it's not because we havn't worked out how to use it yet. It's just not a very good unit.
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Download Cowgomoo's replay package AND ALL OF YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND.
Hellions are the key to winning a game. Try retreating from a army of charging zealots... not gonna happen unless you have hellions.
Hellions are the masters of hit and run. An army chasing a hellion is a dead one. They run in single file line as the hellion turns and fires a 10+yard fire stream... hitting every single one of them, without taking a single hit itself.
Although, I do miss spidermines. I feel very uncomfortable not having a few placed as scouts. Opponents laugh when they see 5 scvs scattered around the map lol.
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Before I post let me express that I don't think that because a unit was fun to play in SC it has to be in SC2. Thus I don't think that SC2 needs a vulture, or a lurker, or stacking mutas. I look forward to enjoying new units and new approaches to playing.
To begin with I was sceptical towards the helion, but after having used it in several successive TvZ games I am really beginning to enjoy this unit. With proper micro you can wreak havoc in drone lines and before the Zerg has zergling speed you can maneuver away from the lings and fire upon them in a line of fire. Against limited numbers of hydras they also work quite well.
I have also used the helion to some extent in TvP, where they are good against zealots. My only real beef with them is more of a general concern of mine regarding the way SC2 units take up too little space, which makes battles after a certain period of time has elapsed a clash between two blobs of closely packed units, where control and overview is very difficult to achieve.
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The Hellion IS incredibly lame. I don't agree with all your reasons but I do agree that it's the worst unit in SC2 mainly because it just looks stupid and has a ridiculous attack animation.
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On March 04 2010 04:16 0neder wrote:
This is a new game. The vulture won't be coming back. We need to accept this.
With that out of the way, how can the hellion be improved?
-make attack upgrade default attack
-better unit model, maybe better name?
We don't know that it's not coming back. Blizz could still put it back in during beta (they've said they'd do whatever it took). Vulture/mines could also be added later in either of the expansions.
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I completely agree
Also thx for trying to be funny southlight but no...
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Yeah, interesting to see the hellion. It looks like it is simply a fast moving fighting unit now.
Really, it kills a zergling in 2 hits, right? and it has about 90 hit points?
Sure, you can't micro them. But if you just got 3 of them and ran up to the zerglings and then stood your ground, I bet you would win without taking any significant damage. Hell, I bet one of them could take out a fair few lings. Certainly 4.
Not a vulture, for certain, but that's a powerful attack on a unit with quite a few hit points for it's cost.
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F you dustin browder!
they seriously seem to have needlessly detracted from the game, don't know what their problem is.
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There's one point in your post that I agree with: hellions do not have spider mines, and spider mines were interesting.
Why don't you just compare the hellion to a firebat? All of a sudden the unit becomes a huge improvement over its SC1 counterpart. If you miss mines, fine, but don't blame the poor hellion just because it doesn't seem effective when refuse to use it in any way that doesn't resemble a vulture. If you insist on comparing it to vultures though: They DO tear up zealots and lings and they DO harrass very effectively. The fact that one vulture can't kill an infinite number of zealots/lings is such a moot point^^;. I liked microing my one vulture too but come on.. a single vulture never did enough damage to kill 10 lings in a reasonable amount of time. Hellion micro is like firebat micro. Or marine micro.. unless you want to call marine micro in SC1 crap? The unit is not useless, the unit is fun, and the unit is not a vulture. Live with it.
And in terms of the detection that spider mines used to give us: sensor towers do a phenomenal job of giving you info on the enemy's army. You'll have a harder time keeping track of any expansions he might take, but that'd be the first time someone complains about an aspect of sc2 being harder than sc1. I'd say that's a good thing.
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On March 04 2010 04:27 faction123 wrote:This isn't a valid argument for reasons Waxangel touched on in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301People are literally 100 times better at RTS games in general than they were when SC was still developing. We're now knowledgable enough about the way things work to take a look at the Hellion, see the way it takes 2 seconds to start firing and the way it can't even outrun speedlings and say "This unit isn't very good", and it's not because we havn't worked out how to use it yet. It's just not a very good unit.
While I agree with your first sentence in general, CowGoMoo (best terran atm right?) uses Hellions like every game it seems.
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hellion micro is totally f'ed up and unresponsive compared to vultures, but thats true for sooo many Units, like Mutas, Banshees, Valkyries and so on and the reason is that the units need to stop for a very short duration until they can fire; this basically ruins interesting Micro to a great extent in SC2.
Sm1 totally dropped the ball there and noone seems to care. It's like; Take one of the greatest aspects from SC1, the immaculate controllability of the Units and totally mess it up in SC2 - just for the fun of it!
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Before you give up on SC2, maybe you should waste a few months to work on your hellion micro. I know that Boxer thought that Terran was the weakest of the races when he started to play. That means hellion is more of a challenge to use than a marauder, but there might be something to gain from using the hellion which makes it unique from any other sc2 unit.
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I don't care that the vulture is out, its a new game and blah blah, but the Hellion just looks boring.
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On March 04 2010 04:49 Feefee wrote:
There's one point in your post that I agree with: hellions do not have spider mines, and spider mines were interesting.
Why don't you just compare the hellion to a firebat? All of a sudden the unit becomes a huge improvement over its SC1 counterpart. If you miss mines, fine, but don't blame the poor hellion just because it doesn't seem effective when refuse to use it in any way that doesn't resemble a vulture. If you insist on comparing it to vultures though: They DO tear up zealots and lings and they DO harrass very effectively. The fact that one vulture can't kill an infinite number of zealots/lings is such a moot point^^;. I liked microing my one vulture too but come on.. a single vulture never did enough damage to kill 10 lings in a reasonable amount of time. Hellion micro is like firebat micro. Or marine micro.. unless you want to call marine micro in SC1 crap? The unit is not useless, the unit is fun, and the unit is not a vulture. Live with it.
And in terms of the detection that spider mines used to give us: sensor towers do a phenomenal job of giving you info on the enemy's army. You'll have a harder time keeping track of any expansions he might take, but that'd be the first time someone complains about an aspect of sc2 being harder than sc1. I'd say that's a good thing.
Yea, that's why I made that thread before about adding mines to hellions or reapers. It sounds like the hellion does have micro, but it doesn't contribute the same way that mines did.
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totally agree with OP. best thread in weeks!
vulture was by far the most awesome terran unit. when u see a marine u dont think of starcraft, when u see a tank u can think of many games, but when u see a vulture u say thats starcraft! its futuristic and realistic weapon
hellion is just some shitty bike with flamethrower
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yeah, but honestly compared to a unit which for 75 minerals 2 hits half of the infrantry units and workers, and has the best speed in the game plus can deploy 3 mines for free which are invisible, detectors, and deal 125 splash dmg... what do you expect? you can't create another unit like that.
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On March 04 2010 04:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Didn't people think that the vulture sucked right when starcraft first came out and it wasn't until someone (iloveoov i think) started using them to great effect that they became popular? Just give it some time, people will figure out how to micro it and what unit combos its good with and it will become as indispensable as the vulture. I mean, the beta is 2 weeks old today for god sakes.
+1!
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On March 04 2010 04:45 Zurles wrote:F you dustin browder! they seriously seem to have needlessly detracted from the game, don't know what their problem is.
... yeah useless.. that 1 hellion only killed 10 lings before it went down what a peace of crap unit...
*Sarcasm of course*
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Everyone is trying to micro the units like they were SC1 units, why would you compare hellion with vulture, the game is completely different when it comes to units and abilities, just try to find a way to micro it, or just don´t... i´m sure that if u could kill infinite amounts of a unit with only 1 unit (vultures vs lings) like in SC1 everyone would be complaining about imba this, imba that.. play the game and relax...
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On March 04 2010 05:12 Dr.Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 04:45 Zurles wrote:On March 04 2010 04:18 dustdust wrote:
F you dustin browder! they seriously seem to have needlessly detracted from the game, don't know what their problem is. ... yeah useless.. that 1 hellion only killed 10 lings before it went down what a peace of crap unit...
+Bajillion
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United States47024 Posts
lol that video is a joke. The guy isn't even using any commands other than attack-move. No patrol? No hold position?
You don't even do that with Vultures in SC1. Next time if someone is trying to show how there's no micro to be had with the Hellion, at least try harder.
EDIT: I realize the author says he's going to try patrol in his next video, but don't treat it like this is the end-all-be-all. Look at mutas in SC1: you need to use a combination of patrol, hold position, and attack for them to be effective. trying them one at a time isn't exactly exhaustive.
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United States12235 Posts
The thing about the Hellion is it seems like you need a certain number of them before they become effective, unlike Vultures. You need to counterbalance the target-and-fire delay and relative lack of micro with additional numbers, which just makes you invest more and more into them. They're fairly useless against anything that's not light and their range (initial target, not splash) isn't great either, but in groups of 4 or 5 I can see them doing pretty well against charge zeals or speedlings, particularly in conjunction with marauders to absorb hits.
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United States12235 Posts
On March 04 2010 05:18 TheYango wrote:lol that video is a joke. The guy isn't even using any commands other than attack-move. No patrol? No hold position? You don't even do that with Vultures in SC1. Next time if someone is trying to show how there's no micro to be had with the Hellion, at least try harder.
I always used attack-move when microing Vults in SC1, and so did many pros before Patrol was discovered to be superior. Attack-moving works quite well for Vults, but the problem with the Hellion's micro capabilities is shown quite plainly in that video.
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If the Hellion becomes faster and more micro-friendly, I'm afraid most match-ups will be horribly imbalanced. They're already too good vs Z.
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its a fast firebat which kills probes much faster and with upgrade, you can mass and it will be AWESOME. I've watched enough youtube vods and streams to know that the hellion is awesome. Just because you don't have very good micro and/or don't know how to micro a unit does not mean that a unit sucks. The reason that the vulture and its mines are gone is because then the terran would be able to have a marauder which means that mines+marauders=pawning team which would be used with mines in front and marauders stopping zealots from being able to mine drag. This would mean that terran would be imbalanced. The game would be imbalanced. If you REALLY want to use the vulture in SCII then you can just buy it in the campaign. Just don't call something as bad as it can be just because your not thinking the way you must to be able to use a unit to the best of its ability. GL and HF in SCII.
I do not have the beta since I didn't opt-in or anything but I have watched many a game of SCII and probably know what I'm talking about.
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As mentioned above Vultures were not intended to be used how they are today. Patrol move was not an intended feature of the game but like many of the games glitches they chose to continue to balance around the glitch instead of fixing it. They were considered shit for the longest time before this glitch was discovered.
Mines being gone does not phase me. I loved them and still do, but I also love the (idea behind, maybe not the actual stats yet) baneling and how it works in comparison to the mine when it comes to map control and detection.
Excalibur_Z made a very good point that you need a few before they become effective. This is a very important point. You have to decide when the best time to retreat with your remaining Hellions, because unlike with Vultures the less of them their are the less chance you have of each hellions death being ecconomically justified.
I am glad Blizz has steered away from units which are overly cost effective, and I love the Hellion.
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On March 04 2010 05:32 DeCoup wrote:
As mentioned above Vultures were not intended to be used how they are today. Patrol move was not an intended feature of the game but like many of the games glitches they chose to continue to balance around the glitch instead of fixing it. They were considered shit for the longest time before this glitch was discovered.
Mines being gone does not phase me. I loved them and still do, but I also love the (idea behind, maybe not the actual stats yet) baneling and how it works in comparison to the mine when it comes to map control and detection.
Excalibur_Z made a very good point that you need a few before they become effective. This is a very important point. You have to decide when the best time to retreat with your remaining Hellions, because unlike with Vultures the less of them their are the less chance you have of each hellions death being ecconomically justified.
I am glad Blizz has steered away from units which are overly cost effective, and I love the Hellion.
LOL, it wasn't a glitch, it just simply a feature in the game engine, or rather, a lack of turning animation and no actual firing time. So, no, using vulture/muta micro is not abusing game glitches, it's using how the game is designed to your advantage. Stacking hydras was a glitch, kiting isn't. Sc2 kinda killed kiting with its unnecessary attack delay and long uncancellable attack animation.
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Really bad example.
First of all, half of the battle takes place on creep where the zerglings run faster and can easily catch up.
Second, zerglings in general are near impossible to run from, let alone kite, because they attack while moving now.
Basically, as someone mentioned earlier, I remember people saying the same thing about vultures years ago. On top of that, if you try to put it in the niche left by the vulture you will be dissapointed. This is not meant to be a replacement for the vulture but rather a mobile unit with a positional attack (like a cheap/fast lurker). It will have its place in games.
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cough*Cowgomoos replays*cough
they are in the official replay thread
Complain and whine all you want about what YOU think of their graphics and animations. I suppose that matters if you are 12 years old or something.
Complain and whine all you want that YOU can't micro them. Sorry that doesn't make them a terrible unit.
The Hellion is cheap (NO GAS!) and can be made 2 at a time with a reactor... They are super fast and can be put 4 at a time into a drop ship. How can you not love this unit? Drop, FLAMES, OH GOD ALL MY WORKERS ARE DEAD, pick them up take them to an expansion, OH GOD MORE WORKERS ARE DEAD! Opponent GGs.
The price of 1 command center = the destruction of the saturated workers of your opponents...
Only you can prevent hellion fires =)
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hellions own everything that is light. especially workers!!
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Predy's replays are good too =)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 04 2010 04:17 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 04:14 hey88 wrote:
hellions also cost 125, which i think is ridiculous. They're 100 minerals.
Which is still hilariously overpriced when compared to what you got for 75 minerals from a vulture 
Honestly, mech in SC2 has only gotten nerfed. Tank? More expensive, higher supply, many more counters.
Vulture/Hellion? More expensive, slower, not as good at harassing, no spider mines.
On March 04 2010 05:32 DeCoup wrote:
As mentioned above Vultures were not intended to be used how they are today. Patrol move was not an intended feature of the game but like many of the games glitches they chose to continue to balance around the glitch instead of fixing it. They were considered shit for the longest time before this glitch was discovered.
Mines being gone does not phase me. I loved them and still do, but I also love the (idea behind, maybe not the actual stats yet) baneling and how it works in comparison to the mine when it comes to map control and detection.
Excalibur_Z made a very good point that you need a few before they become effective. This is a very important point. You have to decide when the best time to retreat with your remaining Hellions, because unlike with Vultures the less of them their are the less chance you have of each hellions death being ecconomically justified.
I am glad Blizz has steered away from units which are overly cost effective, and I love the Hellion.
The patrol glitch is WAAAAAAAAAAY more newschool than vulture usage ;p They were considered evil little bastards years before that was discovered.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 04 2010 05:53 buhhy wrote:
LOL, it wasn't a glitch, it just simply a feature in the game engine, or rather, a lack of turning animation and no actual firing time. So, no, using vulture/muta micro is not abusing game glitches, it's using how the game is designed to your advantage. Stacking hydras was a glitch, kiting isn't. Sc2 kinda killed kiting with its unnecessary attack delay and long uncancellable attack animation.
It's funny that people keep saying this, given that I find that microing marines vs. zealots in SC2 is actually easier than in SC1.
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On March 04 2010 06:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 05:53 buhhy wrote:
LOL, it wasn't a glitch, it just simply a feature in the game engine, or rather, a lack of turning animation and no actual firing time. So, no, using vulture/muta micro is not abusing game glitches, it's using how the game is designed to your advantage. Stacking hydras was a glitch, kiting isn't. Sc2 kinda killed kiting with its unnecessary attack delay and long uncancellable attack animation. It's funny that people keep saying this, given that I find that microing marines vs. zealots in SC2 is actually easier than in SC1.
Well, I was trying out doing patrol micro with the Mutalisk, the Phoenix and Hellion and the units just kinda stop moving, attack, and can't move until the attack animation is over.
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On March 04 2010 04:23 SCC-Faust wrote:
God that youtube video made me laugh so hard.
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I personally dont like the hellion just because it looks like a cute toy car, but all this arguing about how the vulture does this and that is irrelevant. Maybe some people need to realize that not every unit in sc2 has to be played in the exact same way a bw unit was.
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the hellion shouldn't be used alone, that's not where it shines. However, is you pair it with the reaper and go harassing then I think you'll have one hell of a time.
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Hellions are not vultures, they are firebats.
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On March 04 2010 06:30 def0 wrote:
Hellions are not vultures, they are firebats.
And this my friends is true. Firebats are missing, but you dont see a single thread about that. Reason? Hellions replaced them and people dont feel the loss.
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On March 04 2010 06:42 RAZROK wrote:
And this my friends is true. Firebats are missing, but you dont see a single thread about that. Reason? Hellions replaced them and people dont feel the loss.
Firebat's weren't used often in SC1, while vulture were one of the best terran units that could have been used during any match up. I don't miss the firebats but i hell sure miss the vulture. Also i could remember all those time i played UMS maps with vulture micro.
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The hellion makes no logical sense... replacing a hovercraft throwing grenades with a firebat on an ATV = fail
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BTW, has anybody tried the ctrl + move to micro? I mean
Here's enemy
You are here
Click here/Ctrl Click/Click/Ctrl click
It suppose to move when you only click mouse, but suppose to attack when you ctrl+click, so you don't need to move mouse.
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I think the people who are trying to micro hellions against zerglings like they would with vultures are doing it wrong. It seems to me that micro of the wraith versus scourge would be more effective, meaning that it can't be showcased with one vulture (retreat three hellions, split them, the two not being chased fry the zerglings and back off if the zerglings switch targets; I can see control groups of zerglings getting slagged this way.)
Like wraiths and scourge, simply turning around and trying to get a shot off on the scourge totally isn't going to work, but that doesn't mean that they can't be microed.
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People are just going to whine, whine, whine, whine. Then play sc:bw and dont whine. There is a purpose for everything and its all to be discovered. Why are u using sc:bw techniques in sc2 and think that they should work? Its two sepperate games.
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Norway28600 Posts
the vulture was a balanced unit when starcraft was released
at the end of bw, it was absolutely ridiculously overpowered.
if it was to rearrive in sc2, it'd have to cost 125 minerals or something.
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I love the hellion. I think it represents a lot of what's lacking in SC2: A pure fighter unit, that has no spells, and is actually pretty weak, but when you micro it well it does absolutely insane damage. Someone compared it to the lurker... well I can agree with that, but then it's an easy-mode lurker.
My first impression when the unit was announced was: Great! They keep on giving retarded spells to units, finally a unit that actually requires pure micro, and not just half-assed spell usage, to be effcient.
And the Hellion delivers, it can wreak havoc in any melee units if you use it well, and it'll even own some light ranged units like marines if the numbers are right (6-8 hellions that rush in on a huge ball of marines that are focusing elsewhere... believe me it feels great).
I don't think the hellion needs a buff, and I just can't wait to see some top-players use them in pimp plays. I expect to see some great plays out of these buggies.
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It seems to me like the hellion might work very well in a terran mech opening. It really sounds to me like it has usefulness throughout the game.
you can build them for early defense, because they should be great at fighting zerglings/zealots, put early pressure on and force your opponent to defend, because they should be great versus workers. Then, you can scout for expansions because they are super fast, and hold down watch towers, because they are cheap enough to be disposable, and are also good enough that your opponent won't be able to just send a couple zerglings to take one out. Next, you can protect your siege tanks and thors as you move out, because they should be really good at cleaning zerglings and broodlings off of your other mech units, and protecting building from ling snipes.
Plus, they should be highly droppable, simply because while they do equivalent damage to a vulture, they are now AOE to make up for the lack of microing ability.
And if you do break into an opponent's base frontally, they can rush ahead and take out the worker line super fast, or block the ramp with the aoe.
It may not be the vulture at all, but it sounds to me like it might be a new unit that fits with the rest of the terran gameplan well.
I find it strange to hear that everyone expects them to be a vulture. Tons of units were already removed from the game. Even if the hellion can't do the job of the vulture, it sounds like it can do it's own job.
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On March 04 2010 07:14 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I think the people who are trying to micro hellions against zerglings like they would with vultures are doing it wrong. It seems to me that micro of the wraith versus scourge would be more effective, meaning that it can't be showcased with one vulture (retreat three hellions, split them, the two not being chased fry the zerglings and back off if the zerglings switch targets; I can see control groups of zerglings getting slagged this way.)
Like wraiths and scourge, simply turning around and trying to get a shot off on the scourge totally isn't going to work, but that doesn't mean that they can't be microed.
Emerald sparks with a new idea and answers the calling to discover how to micro a unit of SCII Well done emerald. Thread finished.
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On March 04 2010 07:21 RAZROK wrote:
People are just going to whine, whine, whine, whine. Then play sc:bw and dont whine. There is a purpose for everything and its all to be discovered. Why are u using sc:bw techniques in sc2 and think that they should work? Its two sepperate games.
Or it's a terrible unit. SCII should have mechanics extremely similar to BW.
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It doesn't and it shouldn't. You just want it to, so that all the tricks you've learned in BW immediately translate, letting you pwn noobs in a familiar setting. Build more than 2 hellions in 4 games, give the unit an honest shot, and I'll bet you won't call it crap. Model and animation aside
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United States47024 Posts
On March 04 2010 07:35 synapse wrote:
SCII should have mechanics extremely similar to BW.
I'm not saying that I disagree, but is there any possible objective argument to support this? Because I can't think of any reasonable one.
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Units in SC:BW were way more interesting than the ones in Sc2; however, Blizz has two expansions to add way more interesting units.
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On March 04 2010 07:35 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2010 07:21 RAZROK wrote:
People are just going to whine, whine, whine, whine. Then play sc:bw and dont whine. There is a purpose for everything and its all to be discovered. Why are u using sc:bw techniques in sc2 and think that they should work? Its two sepperate games. Or it's a terrible unit. SCII should have mechanics extremely similar to BW.
So would you rather have a repackaged broodwar, in shiny and sparkly 3D?
I for one would pass on that. I want to have to figure the game out, find new ways to use units and new situations where those units are effective. What is the point of calling the game Starcraft II (TWO, 2) if it works exactly the same as starcraft 1.5? I welcome the challenge and opportunity the new game and units bring.
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all u terrans just want to siege, mind and turret up for another 10 years. ... .
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come on blizzard listen to fan!! change design and name....
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wooow some people love hellions and some don't.
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Starcraft II doesn't need to be mechanically similar to Starcraft I. But it should retain the exciting, dynamic, and suspenseful elements of gameplay that made Starcraft I great. It's pretty clear that the possibilities of Hellions is less than that of Vultures (which basically were the unit with the most uses in the entire game) but I'm not convinced that the Hellion is as microless or stupid as people are trying to make out.
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I think it's too early to really call the hellion overpriced; as-is it's one of only two mineral-only combat units for T.
Marines are 50 minerals for 6 (+1 per upgrade) damage vs ground or air; 55 hp after combat shields; and have stim. 20 second build time and of course they use 1 supply.
Hellions are 100 minerals for 8 (+1 per upgrade) + 16 (+1 per upgrade) to light damage vs ground with line splash (after preigniter); they have 90 HP. 30 second build time, and they use 2 supply.
Just from looking at the numbers it looks to me like hellions are better against ground units for their cost. The durability is generally similar (hellions are better vs stuff like storm or colossi, but have less HP per mineral), and while marines deal better single-target damage to non-light units, hellions en masse have splash to most likely come out even (this will probably take lots of play time to really figure out) and they just incinerate light units.
Of course, marines are better vs air, and have stim and get healed by medevacs. They're also built from barracks, a nice plus since you can build those with only minerals while you need gas for factories. Hellions move a lot faster and build faster for their cost (though again this is probably negated by the fact they're from factories instead of barracks). And I don't know the relative attack cooldowns--my guess is Hellions have longer cooldown, but it's not a huge cooldown.
I mean, from looking at the stats I can't say for sure which unit is better to pour excess minerals into. Neither is going to be the backbone of your army, but with how fast you mine minerals compared to gas that's fine--they're there just so you have a way to spend those minerals on your army.
My first impression is that hellions are a bit expensive for what they do--maybe they should cost 75 minerals; certainly not less than that though--but maybe as people try more things they'll turn out to be more effective than I think.
Infernal preigniter's price does strike me as a bit high also, but then again ... all the mineral-only units in the game are light units except for overlords and warp prisms which hellions won't be attacking anyway; and queens which aren't exactly a great combat unit.
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Personally I like the unit and I'm planning to mess around with them a lot once I can. They seem really fun.
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To me the hellions just a ground only Valkyrie, it's mainly unused except in certain situations =\ leave the worker harass to reapers
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My biggest gripe with it is how it looks. Looks like a remote controlled car. Im sure the artists can do a better job.
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I ..love the hellion. Come on guys it's a fast unit with freaking lurker like splash damage. Of course one sucks against 12 zerglings on creep(lol) but when you get to the 3+ numbers in early game in my opinion with decent micro you would be able to do mine-like damage.
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everyone hates the hellion, ppl who say they like it just wanna be smartasses or want attention. seriously i love all new sc2 units really much and all about the game but the hellion is just a big joke. its not a joke because the vulture was cooler or because its a new unit that didnt come from bw. its a joke because its a non-futuristic unit. they could just replace it with a chariot with bowmen in and i couldnt see the difference, maybe im overexadurating a bit but u get my point xd
banshee and reapers r better at harassing than this go cart
i just dont see mech play being possible without vultures who can shoot out of their asses and mines and that makes me sad to be forced to play bio vs both p and z :/
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Hellions are terrible.
As I said in the other thread, they need to give hellions a speed upgrade, and they need to increase the attack speed animation so you can shoot-move-shoot without having to stop for 1second and get surrounded or killed.
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On March 04 2010 08:52 MorroW wrote:
everyone hates the hellion, ppl who say they like it just wanna be smartasses or want attention. seriously i love all new sc2 units really much and all about the game but the hellion is just a big joke. its not a joke because the vulture was cooler or because its a new unit that didnt come from bw. its a joke because its a non-futuristic unit. they could just replace it with a chariot with bowmen in and i couldnt see the difference, maybe im overexadurating a bit but u get my point xd
banshee and reapers r better at harassing than this go cart
i just dont see mech play being possible without vultures who can shoot out of their asses and mines and that makes me sad to be forced to play bio vs both p and z :/
I agree that the RC car look has to go. But come on, the Banshee costs 150/100 and the Reaper is horrible in anything that isn't harass, which isn't true for the Hellion.
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seriously if blizzard listens to TL people wanting lurkers, mines, and reavers back. we will end up with almost the same game as sc1 unit by unit.
so what if everyone got the unit they wanted back? you will have sc2 with like one or 2 new units only.. it will be sc1 in 3d.
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On March 04 2010 09:10 zimz wrote:
seriously if blizzard listens to TL people wanting lurkers, mines, and reavers back. we will end up with almost the same game as sc1 unit by unit.
so what if everyone got the unit they wanted back? you will have sc2 with like one or 2 new units only.. it will be sc1 in 3d.
and who wants that? 3d sucks.
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hellion sucks big time. this unit looking so cheap and boring gameplay
bring back the vulture
thanks blizzard.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 04 2010 09:10 zimz wrote:
so what if everyone got the unit they wanted back? you will have sc2 with like one or 2 new units only.. it will be sc1 in 3d.
Actually, I'd prefer high-resolution 2D to 3D.
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I'd prefer it if we could separate people who hate the look of the hellion (i.e. the so-called "buggy" model) from people who hate it gameplay-wise. Because it seems like most people who dislike it start off hating the model and then go from there to spouting out a bunch of stuff about how it sucks gameplay-wise and advocate. I can't help but think that many of these people would have no problem with the Hellion if it looked different.
The reason I'm asking is that, from I'm standing, the Hellion looks great gameplay-wise; it's an anti-light unit with an interesting attack mechanic and a good niche in the Terran army. And I'd hate to see it go just because a bunch of people have an irrational hatred of wheels.
So let's figure this out: who hates the unit, who just hates the model, who hates both, and which did you hate first? And please note: if you like the unit but simply think the Vulture would be more interesting, that's fine, but it's not what the poll is asking.
Poll: Which best describes you?
(Vote): I hate the Hellion model, AND I hate it gameplay wise.
(Vote): I hate the Hellion model, but I don't hate it gameplay-wise.
(Vote): I don't hate the Hellion model, but I do hate it gameplay wise.
(Vote): I don't hate the Hellion. Period.
Poll: Which did you hate first?
(Vote): I saw the model, and I wanted to puke. Then I saw how much it sucked in game.
(Vote): I played around with it in-game for a while, and it really sucked. The model's lame, too.
(Vote): I don't remember either way. I've hated it as long as I've been alive.
(Vote): Um...I already said I didn't hate it.
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I personally think the hellion just needs to get insta-fire such that it can kite the way the vulture used to be able to do. That would make it so much better. But then again, anything would make it better as it is right now x]
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Helions can take out groups of zeals and unspeeded zerglings by kiting, even zeals with charge/speed. The toss has to micro way harder than you to avoid that issue (even then, they don't get much off it).
If zerg is massing speedlings, you can cost effectively tear them apart with Helions. No, you can't kite them - but you don't have to. Helions are also cost effective against Hydras. The trick here is that you can't just let your helions engage their hydras at range 5 - you have to run your helions up next to them and then let them fire to get the most out of their line-attack. Hydras are light, and Helions do 24 in a line against Light. One shot could easily hit 3 or 4 of them if you do it right. That's huge damage for a minerals-only unit.
Go watch CowsGoMoo's replay pack to see this in action - he starts most games against Zerg by rushing Helions, and he's a great player (maybe the best terran right now?) playing in platinum league.
They're still very effective as chafe against Protoss. When a toss ball is attacking, their splash (along with tank splash) makes short work of the opening zeal charge, and they still do a good job of tying up Stalkers after that.
You can also punish Toss for leaving his base to attack by using Helions to kill probes.
No, they aren't Vultures. Still, they have a place.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 04 2010 10:55 RPGabe wrote:
Go watch CowsGoMoo's replay pack to see this in action - he starts most games against Zerg by rushing Helions, and he's a great player (maybe the best terran right now?) playing in platinum league.
This. CGM's Hellion openings are pretty sick. Watching a couple of his games with them should make someone at least reevaluate their opinion on the Hellion (at least in terms of gameplay--I still agree it looks awkward).
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LOL I just got home from work and saw this. Touche.
Apparently you win :O
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On March 04 2010 09:10 zimz wrote:
seriously if blizzard listens to TL people wanting lurkers, mines, and reavers back. we will end up with almost the same game as sc1 unit by unit.
so what if everyone got the unit they wanted back? you will have sc2 with like one or 2 new units only.. it will be sc1 in 3d.
No. I like new units and new mechanics. But hellion is not good enough as a replacement, so Blizzard should at least improve it.
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.. and it's not like they're beyond saving.. just a slightly faster rxn time would make them sexy as hell.. it' just when early zealots get in your base and you can't utilize the hellions speed to deal with the rush.
I will say though.. that if you're in the middle of the map.. you can run away /// like alot more than you would with the vulture.. and you can micro effectively that way.. but in close quarters... against aggressive tear one units.. the helion should be much faster on the draw.
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To be honest, I don't really care about the units at the moment. There will be 2 expansions and I believe each race will get 2-3 new units / each expansion. I'll get rage if the second expansion beta doesnt have good units, but for now, relax man 
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Has anybody actually tried messing with the Hellion to try and get it to attack + move at the same time?
Patrol, Hold Position, Stop, Attack-Move, and Move along with Qeueing all could play a part in "unlocking" the ability to hit and run, much like other micro tactics in SC1.
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i don't care about the vulture, but i hated the hellion as soon as i saw it. it's the worst looking/least cool idea for a new unit in SC2. it's a stupid dune buggy, and a flame throwing vehicle is so.. idk.. cliche unimaginative sci-fi. the idea of a flame throwing vehicle is just so lame. one of the great things about SC is how the visual feel of each race is so unique and so cohesive. the hellion doesn't feel cohesive with the terran or the SC universe as a whole.
also the way that they stop moving to shoot looks really clunky compared to vulture micro.
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On March 04 2010 03:52 skypacer wrote:
Compared with their counterpart in SC1, hellion is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
Couldn't agree more.
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it's going to be a very good unit in a different way then vultures were a really good unit. it's a different unit. like people said it's more similar to a lurker. you can't patrol micro a hellion, so what? it's not a vulture, you can't patrol micro a lurker and no one says lurkers suck?
Lurkers are good? yea. people can agree with that right? then i don't see how hellion can suck that bad and receive so much hate. lurkers cost gas while hellions are mineral only. that's huge. lurkers are pretty fragile and requires zerglings to "tank" for them so they can get into position as damage dealers.
The unit is still too weak though since it's a good vs light only unit. Vultures had spider mines to deal with units that it cannot deal significant dmg to like dragoons. The hellions needs to have some kind of ability that will make it useful against non-light units.
Also with the new shield system, units don't deal full damage to shields which made vultures very useful. they took down dragoons' shields in 4 hits. in SC2 system vultures would take 16 hits just to bring down the shields of dragoons. This is also why hellions suck because 8 dmg to shields of non-light units are pathetic. If hellions were able to do 24 to shields, i can see them being very good damage dealers, with tank marauder marines finishing off the rest of the health of enemy units.
TLDR
hellioins are
1) different units, different usages (don't even compare micro; not the same)
2) good damage dealers in position (not attack move and lose them all)
3) only good against light and needs something against non-light (be creative - no spider mines)
4) not as good damage dealers to non-light because of new shield system
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Spider mines were fun to watch, but even without them, SC2 is complete. It is possible that we'll see more of them in the expansion (we have two expansion worth of units to be added, after all), but I feel right now, that the Hellion is a complete unit and it suits the terran.
The graphic for the hellion does annoy me a bit though, not much - I'll get used to it.
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hellion is basically a combination of the firebat and the vulture. whoever designed the flame thrower dune buggy should be fired, because the answer is obvious.
firebat on a motorcycle. so much more badass. riding around like a badass shooting flames out of his hands saying badass things.
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The only reason everyone hates is because it's replacing the vulture. Vulture's were just way too fucking good, especially for 75 minerals lol. That was like, paying 75 minerals for a reaver which moves faster than anything in the game, and also has a nice secondary attack that can rape workers or zealots.
The hellion seems like a good niche unit, like the firebat. You don't always need firebats, and you very rarely need more than 2, but they're still useful.
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I don't think vultures are coming back, kinda like reavers, their iconic and will never be forgotten but people will sooner or later move on. And to all the people who don't like the Hellion and think you can't micro with it, think about this.
Zerg queen and roach have 3 range, hellion has +att vs them and 5range. It's dare I say imba right now because zerg is screwed if they go for roaches and maybe even hydras (forgot range) people say they suck because you can micro them like vulture patrol, just micro them like rines vs zels. A line of fire that can hit like 10+ units means you can kill 20 lings with 2 hellions in 1 hit basically. And dont even talk about vs zels law. Try it out in different situations and give it a chance before you rage on it and never use it " because it just looks stupid and has a ridiculous attack animation." You might like it more then the vulture in time
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I don't hate the Hellion as a unit. I just hate its model.
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Korea (South)922 Posts
imo hellion should have firebat sc1 characteristics and drain away shields like they do, regardless of armor, so they can be the shield counter to immortal, since hellion dies almost to everything except zealot
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On March 05 2010 13:10 zealing wrote:Zerg queen and roach have 3 range, hellion has +att vs them and 5range. It's dare I saw imba right now because zerg is screwed if they go for roaches and maybe even hydras (forgot range) people say they suck because you can micro them like vulture patrol, just micro them like rines vs zels. A line of fire that can hit like 10+ units means you can kill 20 lings with 2 hellions in 1 hit basically. Try it out in different situations and give it a chance before you rage on it and never use it " because it just looks stupid and has a ridiculous attack animation." You might like it more then the vulture in time
Hellion doesn't deal bonus damage to Roaches, just the normal 8. I don't know if they deal bonus damage to Queen, though. Hydras have 5 range, and their upgrade makes it 6 range, so Hellion can't kite Hydras. You won't ever kill 20 Lings with 2 Hellions in 1 hit because you can't fit that many in to the range :/ Huge exaggeration there.
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If you don't like SC2, you can always play some SC1, seems like that is what you want anyway.
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On March 05 2010 13:10 zealing wrote:I don't think vultures are coming back, kinda like reavers, their iconic and will never be forgotten but people will sooner or later move on. And to all the people who don't like the Hellion and think you can't micro with it, think about this. Zerg queen and roach have 3 range, hellion has +att vs them and 5range. It's dare I say imba right now because zerg is screwed if they go for roaches and maybe even hydras (forgot range) people say they suck because you can micro them like vulture patrol, just micro them like rines vs zels. A line of fire that can hit like 10+ units means you can kill 20 lings with 2 hellions in 1 hit basically. And dont even talk about vs zels law. Try it out in different situations and give it a chance before you rage on it and never use it " because it just looks stupid and has a ridiculous attack animation." You might like it more then the vulture in time
i dont know about queens, but roaches dont take extra damage from hellions, they basically do zero damage to roaches. IF you manage to micro and keep zerglings in a line, you can kill 20 zerglings with 2 eventually but most certainly not in one hit.
hellion is a nice harass unit, it's fast and relatively cheap so you can build enough to try run-bys or do drops and quickly do damage to the worker line. they die fast though, so within your army you either need a whole bunch of them to soak damage/do some splash, or keep a few of them positioned so they do maximum damage to the right type of unit (light armored).
it still feels like there's something missing with the hellion, but that might change as people use them more and more.
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As a few others have mentioned, no one liked the vulture when it first came out either. In fact, for a long time it was one of the most underused units in the game. People would call a newb any player who made them.
It wasn't until metal terran that people suddenly figured out what to do with them, and now they are godly.
I'm not saying I love the hellion, but I promise you most units aren't as bad as you think, people always find a way to use their strengths to make them shine.
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i dont like the sc2 unit names as much as sc1 units... stalker is alright... mothership..... i wish they came up with a more epic name than that, collosus... seems unoriginal since its just big and yeah, phoenix is actually a cool name for protoss, phase prism i guess is alright, immortals... this name actually kind of grew on me, i was like wth is immortals,( imagining what commentators would say for ex.. the immortals are now soaking up so much heavy fire from those siege tanks and are pushing up that ramp...) but now i think immortals sounds like a fearsome name, sentry just sounds lame but i guess the name sort of fits...and wth banshees just sounds ridiculous...
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ya. Hellion is fully POS.
No way just a couple simple tweaks could make it sweet.
Ill take the vulture, even with the same graphic as before!
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On March 04 2010 04:03 EmeraldSparks wrote:
I think the hellion is better thought of as a (cheap, mobile, fragile) lurker than a vulture. Mind you, they're totally not the same but I think the comparison is more apt than that of the vulture. Like straight-line-move-burrow lurkers and attack-moved vultures, I'm pretty sure straight attack-moved hellions are really bad. Because they aren't as responsive as the hit-and-run vultures, positioning might be more important.
Just my two cents.
Tru dat. I'd have to disagree with OP. At least it still costs no gas, still serves as a meat shield for the rest of the T army, melts away any ling there may be, etc etc.
In terms of the usefulness in the harass department, P don't really always get cannons that early. You can still dick around with the hellions vs the zealots no problem. Also, upgraded helions kill workerS (note plural) in two hits, 3 hits unupgraded. A well placed shot in a drilling worker line = no more workers.
I think the hellion earned its place in the army unit mix IMO and is worth having as a meat shield just like its sc1 counterpart.
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On March 05 2010 13:42 Deviation wrote:
I don't hate the Hellion as a unit. I just hate its model.
Agree x10. Looks like a little childs RC car. It's one of the more pathetic models in game.
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The Reaper is really the new early harass unit... but god blizzard.. if you would have asked any terran... which unit they couldn't live without from sc1... vulture
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On March 05 2010 15:42 Iris7 wrote:
The Reaper is really the new early harass unit... but god blizzard.. if you would have asked any terran... which unit they couldn't live without from sc1... vulture
Did you not see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y84ysX4gyY8&feature=player_embedded#
On March 05 2010 08:17 Iris7 wrote:
.. and it's not like they're beyond saving.. just a slightly faster rxn time would make them sexy as hell.. it' just when early zealots get in your base and you can't utilize the hellions speed to deal with the rush.
I will say though.. that if you're in the middle of the map.. you can run away /// like alot more than you would with the vulture.. and you can micro effectively that way.. but in close quarters... against aggressive tear one units.. the helion should be much faster on the draw.
you don't NEED helion speed to deal with zealots. you can micro them vs zealots just fine without losing them. I don't know what kind of micro you're pulling off but zealots shouldn't be able to win vs helions in a micro battle.
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I tried mixing Hellions in against a protoss army today. Old school style. EMP/Tanks/Hellion (Supposed to be the meat shield, joke of a game, wanted to get out of the bio, support build playstyle), but uh, between Zealot Charge and one Colossus pulse, you could potentially lose all of the hellions before your tanks get their 3rd rounds off. Vultures could body block at least, now zealots just swipe them aside.
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On March 05 2010 17:24 Railz wrote:
I tried mixing Hellions in against a protoss army today. Old school style. EMP/Tanks/Hellion (Supposed to be the meat shield, joke of a game, wanted to get out of the bio, support build playstyle), but uh, between Zealot Charge and one Colossus pulse, you could potentially lose all of the hellions before your tanks get their 3rd rounds off. Vultures could body block at least, now zealots just swipe them aside.
Yeah, I personally don't think they work so well for blocking. They're mainly supposed to get the hell out of the way of anything. They're a serious micro unit. I like them, still.
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Hellion is awesome and anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong.
It requires certain circumstances to be used or timed attacks which most people have still not developed in Beta and is not suprising they didnt.
I really like the hellion, in fact its my 2nd fav terran unit after Raven.
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Since T already has reapers for harass, how about changing the role of the hellion a bit?
Make it an option on par with the siege tanks but with a different purpose. Make it so that a player can choose to actually replace the backbone of their army usually reserved for tanks with hellions. Right now, most people only pump tanks from the factory with the occasional thors here and there. How about making the player choose whether they want tanks or hellions out of their factories as part of their mid-game army?
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It's not a Vulture and it's a very useful unit.
End of story.
EDIT:
I guess you guys dont play mech vs Z much. (in SC2 yes)
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it's not a starcraft universe unit and it's a very sucks unit.
story is just starting
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On March 05 2010 18:31 Gliche wrote:
Since T already has reapers for harass, how about changing the role of the hellion a bit?
Make it an option on par with the siege tanks but with a different purpose. Make it so that a player can choose to actually replace the backbone of their army usually reserved for tanks with hellions. Right now, most people only pump tanks from the factory with the occasional thors here and there. How about making the player choose whether they want tanks or hellions out of their factories as part of their mid-game army?
A lot of people are talking about just reapers for harass but the fact of the matter is reapers don't always work. Not only if the opponent is prepared for it but also if the map simply doesn't allow it.
On March 05 2010 17:24 Railz wrote:
I tried mixing Hellions in against a protoss army today. Old school style. EMP/Tanks/Hellion (Supposed to be the meat shield, joke of a game, wanted to get out of the bio, support build playstyle), but uh, between Zealot Charge and one Colossus pulse, you could potentially lose all of the hellions before your tanks get their 3rd rounds off. Vultures could body block at least, now zealots just swipe them aside.
As for tank/hellion/ghost vs toss, I think thor/maurader/medvac + hellion meat is a better way to go. Obviously try not to take too much of a beating from that colossus. The thors with their special ability are great for sniping the colossii. By no means advocating this as the best way to go, just what I've noticed works.
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After watching a lot of Cowgomoo's terran reps, I have been very satisfied with helion play lately. Building 2 at a time for 100 minerals each is great, with upgrade they are really a powerful backstabbing threat. Great for scouting and giving terran some map control, and they can decimate equal number hydras with good micro (seriously).
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I think hellions are an okay unit, its not like theyre completely useless atm.
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I completely retract what I said before... you can back the hellion up and then right click towards what you're attacking then hit hold and get pritty much the same effect as the vulture... its a lot like wraith micro... this is like the first micro trick I've discovered... god I hope there are more
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I <3 Helions. Sure, they're not very useful when the protoss decides to stop shitting zealots, but against a zergling, unless he's going roaches or hydra, they're solid ground units against zerglings, if backed by marines to handle Mutas.
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It's funny.. everyone talks about how overpowered vultures are, and yet I've never seen anyone seriously argue that BW is imbalanced because of it. I mean, they see by far the most use in TvP, and yet TvP is by no means favored on the Terran side.
Yeah, Hellions have a (very) niche use. That doesn't make them a solid unit. People seem to easily forget that the uses for Vultures in SC were multifaceted. They could harass, they could protect tanks from close range threats, and they laid spider mines which had amazing utility. The Hellion just doesn't have what it takes to be that type of reliable, load-carrying unit in your average terran army. In fact, this problem is seen in other Terran units now as well, and has a lot to do with bio being preferred as the safe and steady route in pretty much all matchups. And in reality, that's what it will come down to - what strategies will win you the most games.
On March 07 2010 15:09 Zhek wrote:
I <3 Helions. Sure, they're not very useful when the protoss decides to stop shitting zealots, but against a zergling, unless he's going roaches or hydra, they're solid ground units against zerglings, if backed by marines to handle Mutas.
See, it's just responses like this that eat at me. 'Unless a zerg is going roaches or hydra'? When is that not happening? It's like saying that Hellions are great unless the Terran you're against mixes in marauders with his marines.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 07 2010 15:34 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 15:09 Zhek wrote:
I <3 Helions. Sure, they're not very useful when the protoss decides to stop shitting zealots, but against a zergling, unless he's going roaches or hydra, they're solid ground units against zerglings, if backed by marines to handle Mutas. See, it's just responses like this that eat at me. 'Unless a zerg is going roaches or hydra'? When is that not happening? It's like saying that Hellions are great unless the Terran you're against mixes in marauders with his marines.
Actually, Hellions are extremely powerful against Roach builds, because while Hellions can't fight the Roaches, they prevent the opponent from pushing out. The opponent is stuck keeping 2 Roaches on his ramp, and can't risk sending drones to mine at his natural until he has enough units to kill Hellions before they can get off 2 shots on drones. If he tries to push, he risks a Hellion backstab that will empty his main before he even gets to your base. The CowGoMoo vs. CauthonLuck game shown on Day[9]'s stream a couple days ago is a good example of this.
Also, with good positioning, Hellions shit on Hydras.
The majority of Hellion damage being bonus damage limits its use in TvP, but there are plenty of units in both SC1 and SC2 that are used exclusively in one or two matchups. As far as I've seen, it's solid enough throughout the game in TvZ to be a worthy unit.
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dustin says:" I do not care about .. I'm C&C designer uhuhuhu.."
User was temp banned for this post.
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So you basically expected vulture mk II?
Sorry to disappoint you, it is a new unit
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I would've liked hellions, had they been able to move while attacking. Yes, you do kill lots of lings in their fire, but speedlings can just catch the hellion due to same speed and thus speedlings have a decent chance to negate the effect of hellions earlygame. In good masses though, hellions looks like a very good unit vs most ground.
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do Hellions do full damage whether they spray the full animation time? or is it like.. the longer they spray the more damage they do??? is it the same damage to every unit in the flame no matter what part of the flame they're exposed to?
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Personally I didn't use the hellion for my first thirty some-odd matches but recently I've won entire games with them hands down. against a toss player I destroyed an entire early/mid game force and put an abrupt halt on his eco, the main point behind getting the most out of your hellions is just as simple as placement vs timings.
In the attack I talked about recently I think it was 8 hellions vs 7 zeals and 5 or 6 stalkers, I had the damage output upgraded and micro'd so his units would rush one hellion then i would move the side hellions to crosshatch the zeals, they were toast in 2 flames, with a loss of one and one slightly damaged, then i moved past the stalkers to stop his eco. after his eco died (lost 2 hellions due to stalkers learning blink) I trailed the stalkers into a wall off in his base and before they could get blink off I simply surrounded them.
IMO Vultures needed love and care to earn appreciation in Broodwar, so tell me why hellions dont deserve it aswell?
I however dont agree with the model of the unit, it's pretty boring and toylike, put the game on lowest and watch them bounce when they move, they do a full wheelie...
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am i the only freak who thinks a toy car with a god damn flame thrower on top is awesome
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Although i really hate the hellion, i can't deny it's usefulness when properly used. I just wish it could be microed better...
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am i the only freak who thinks a toy car with a god damn flame thrower on top is awesome
No, I think they are pretty cool and a lot of fun to watch. I am thinking sexy micro is in the near future for the hellion.
Don't get me wrong, the vulture was sweet, but the hellion is pretty awesome too.
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On March 08 2010 16:32 lol.Froste wrote:
am i the only freak who thinks a toy car with a god damn flame thrower on top is awesome
its awesome when you are 10years old and are a fan of robot arena stuff.
as a terran unit? no please seriously not.
also copy pasting a c&c unit is the lamest thing ever in the history of sc development.
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On March 08 2010 16:54 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 16:32 lol.Froste wrote:
am i the only freak who thinks a toy car with a god damn flame thrower on top is awesome its awesome when you are 10years old and are a fan of robot arena stuff. as a terran unit? no please seriously not. also copy pasting a c&c unit is the lamest thing ever in the history of sc development.
well im not ten and i dont like robot arenas either
your point is invalid!
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I'm not a fan of the hellion, though I recognize that I need to experiment more with them. I find them to be too much of a critical mass unit, a single unupgraded hellion is a decent scout and nothing else, takes forever to kill a ling because of its awful cooldown and inability to shoot while moving. The upgrade is a little annoying to get too, because I don't want to get a tech-addon for a fact to get the upgrade when I want to make hellions, and I'd rather have the reactor for my port also at that stage in the game.
And there is the uncool factor too Firebat was cool, vulture was cool, hellion not so much.
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I haven't enjoyed using the Helion, but mostly I don't like how incredibly lame it looks. Change the look and put in lasers instead of flames and we can talk.
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I just think the Unit looks retarded (I also don't like the look of the Roach).
Everyone that had the joy of letting 3-5 of them pass into his Droneline only finding a lot of burned Drone corpses 2-3 seconds later will probably stop calling them stupid  .... I didn't knew the map and it happened 3-4 times in one game... Boy, I was pissed :p.
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I agree that the RC-car look has to go, but I must vehemently object to replacing the flames with lasers. I don't see how so many people can object to the concept of a bloody napalm truck.
Seriously, you can just imagine the first colonial backwater to fill a firefighting rig with napalm instead of water and literally just drowning zerglings in fire, probably laughing like hell while doing so.
(Of course, presumably there would be a driver and a gunner and the gunner could fire while the driver was driving, because a stationary truck with a gigantic fuel tank on it isn't exactly zergling proof making constant movement and strafing necessary to not get instantly killed, and this happens to be one of the major hellion complaints, but still...)
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I personally think that the hellion should stay, not because i like it, (it sucks atm), but because i think it has potential, so if it gets some changes to its stats, and most deffinitely to its appearance than i think we'll all get around to liking it
but to just take it out and put the vulture back in would be a silly move, change is a good thing, as long as its done well.
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I've watched the reply pack from CowGoMoo , and he tends to open with hellions in both TvZ and TvP a lot the time , but that was before the patches kicked in .
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I've won every TvP that i went hellions, everyone realizes that you can one shot a line of probes with bonus upgrades right? it's disgusting
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