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I posted my thread as a reply here ( I love the hellion ), but I think that a new post is better to express my feelings. If it is not allowed, Mod please delete it.
Be cautious: I don't want to bring back the vulture. I like new things, I like stalker the new dragoon, I like banshee the Avatar hellicopter, and I don't mind science vessel which is one of my favorite units is no longer in the game, for Reaven is as interesting and has some strategical depth. I believe EVERYTHING can be changed, for SC2 is not SC1 in 3D space. What I want is just a replacement as cool as the original vulture, if not, a replacement not as boring as the hellion.
I hate the hellion!
I totally disagree with the OP. Compared with their counterpart in SC1, hellion is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I still remember my first win on Platinum League, where my opponent did a fast hellion drop and all his 4 hellions died to my 6 marines. Yes, his hellions were not upgraded, so their damage output was not that much; his micro may be not good enough, so hellions were not fully used.etc. But when I saw the scene, I'd say f**k! Four vultures with similar micro ability will kill all my marines with even 0 lost.
I really don't want to compare vultrue with hellion, for hellion is just sh*t if vulture was out there. Vulture together with its spider mines is an important factor that shape Terran in Starcraft 1, placing vulture amongst his arsenal,Terran
- has a distinct way of mirco
- has a distinct way to push
- has a distinct way of detection
- has a distinct way of turtling
- has a serial of distinct strategies whose key are vulture micro or spider mines.
And Terran gains
- stronger ability of detection
- stronger ability on map control.
- a more rounded and mobile defensive system.
- A tons more strategy choices.
- bigger chance to win if you got behind.
- bigger chance to survive when facing a much larger invading forces.
- bigger chance to survive when facing special tactics like dt rush or reaver drop.
And the most important thing is, that Terran with vulture is much much more fun!
To the whole game of Starcraft, vulture together with its spider mine:
- severe punish casually Attack Move, even in late game.
- encourage micro no matter you are using vulture or countering them.
- encourage more detection no matter you are countering vultures or you are using them.
- further distinguish the player's skill level, especially when you are a terran player.
Yes, hellions are good when you have a mass of them, or maybe when you have some fancy micro skill in manipulating them, but hellions adds very little to gameplay aspect. They are just something that counter something, and when something countering them arrive, they become scrap.
Someone said that "you can not compare vulture with hellions, because they are totally different things". but you should remember that, on the tech tree, the position for vulture is now taken up by hellion !
Someone even said that you cannot compare A of SC2 to B of SC1, but you should note that it is Starcraft 2, the successor of the original starcraft, not CnC5, warcraft 4 or something totally new.
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some firing buggy, but what I say is just something that springs from my heart after 2 years of close follow and a week of beta experience.
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I think the hellion is better thought of as a (cheap, mobile, fragile) lurker than a vulture. Mind you, they're totally not the same but I think the comparison is more apt than that of the vulture. Like straight-line-move-burrow lurkers and attack-moved vultures, I'm pretty sure straight attack-moved hellions are really bad. Because they aren't as responsive as the hit-and-run vultures, positioning might be more important.
Just my two cents.
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On March 04 2010 03:52 skypacer wrote:
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some firing buggy, .
i lol'ed.
But seriously i agree. I think these things are completely useless. If you have 1 cannon, 1 spine crawler, or 1/2 maurauders these things cant even worker harass. Well they could prob kill1 worker but ill lose all 3-4 of my hellions and will have lost WAY more than the people im harassing.
If they didnt have the weakest, most useless attack, id like them more. Personally id rather drop the flamethrower and have a single marine on one of these... at least then my marines wouldn't have to walk across the maps. Not to mention these things are not fast compared to speedlings or upp'ed zealots, granted zealot's only get quick bursts.. id rather have the zealot in their base killing their workers than this PoS.
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Hellons definitely aren't half as good as Vultures but they're not a useless unit, especially for worker harrass (which vulture was better at, I guess  ) but yea they have problems for sure. They need a speed upgrade and their firing animation needs to be instant imo. The line dmg would still be balanced as they don't have mines.
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The vulture is irreplaceable... hopefully blizzard realizes this :[
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hellions also cost 125, which i think is ridiculous.
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Didn't people think that the vulture sucked right when starcraft first came out and it wasn't until someone (iloveoov i think) started using them to great effect that they became popular? Just give it some time, people will figure out how to micro it and what unit combos its good with and it will become as indispensable as the vulture. I mean, the beta is 2 weeks old today for god sakes.
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This is a new game. The vulture won't be coming back. We need to accept this.
With that out of the way, how can the hellion be improved?
-make attack upgrade default attack
-better unit model, maybe better name?
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On March 04 2010 04:14 hey88 wrote:
hellions also cost 125, which i think is ridiculous.
They're 100 minerals.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
Personally I feel the reason Terrans don't have spidermines anymore. Is they don't need them.
They're so much more mobile now. The mines only really helped for the lack of mobility allowing you to slow opponents down en route so you could unsiege and roll slowly back into place.
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I agree that the vulture great but I'll be fine with just a model change tbh. So far they look like toy dune buggys.
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God that youtube video made me laugh so hard.
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I hate the stalker!
Compared with their counterpart in SC1, stalker is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I still remember my first loss to protoss in BW, where my opponent made a crapton of dragoons and they rolled over me. No, neither of us were upgrading, so my tank damage output was not that much; our micro may not have been good enough to do anything other than attack-move, so my army was not fully used.etc. But when I saw the scene, I'd say f**k! If I had similar number of tanks I might have still lost.
I really don't want to compare dargoon with stalker, for stalker is just sh*t if dragoon was out there. Dragoon together with zealots is an important factor that shape Terran in Starcraft 1, placing dragoon amongst his arsenal, Protoss
- has a distinct way of mirco
- has a distinct way to push
- has a distinct way of bugging up in pathing
- has a distinct way of sometimes not firing properly
- has a distinct way of turtling
- has a serial of distinct strategies whose key are dragoon micro
And Protoss gains
- stronger ability on map control
- a more rounded and mobile defensive (and offensive) system
- A stons more strategy choices
- bigger chance to win if you got behind
- bigger chance to survive when facing a much larger invading forces.
- bigger chance to survive when facing special tactics like nuke rush or lurker drop.
And the most important thing is, that Protoss with dragoons and crappy AI is much much more fun!
To the whole game of Starcraft, dragoon together with its crappy AI:
- sever punish casually Attack Move, especially in late game.
- encourage micro no matter you are using dragoon or countering them.
- encourage more units no matter you are countering dragoons or you are using them.
- further distinguish the player's skill level, especially when you are a protoss player.
Yes, stalkers might be good because of blink, or maybe when you have some fancy observer to jump cliffs, but stalkers adds very little to gameplay aspect. They are just something that counter something, and when something countering them arrive, they become scrap.
Someone said that "you can not compare dragoon with stalker, because they are totally different things". but you should remember that, on the tech tree, the position for dragoon is now taken up by stalker!
Someone even said that you cannot compare A of SC2 to B of SC1, but you should note that it is Starcraft 2, the successor of the original starcraft, not CnC5, warcraft 4 or something totally new.
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some blinking spider, but what I say is just something that springs from my heart after 2 years of close follow and a week of beta experience.
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On March 04 2010 04:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Didn't people think that the vulture sucked right when starcraft first came out and it wasn't until someone (iloveoov i think) started using them to great effect that they became popular? Just give it some time, people will figure out how to micro it and what unit combos its good with and it will become as indispensable as the vulture. I mean, the beta is 2 weeks old today for god sakes.
This isn't a valid argument for reasons Waxangel touched on in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301
People are literally 100 times better at RTS games in general than they were when SC was still developing. We're now knowledgable enough about the way things work to take a look at the Hellion, see the way it takes 2 seconds to start firing and the way it can't even outrun speedlings and say "This unit isn't very good", and it's not because we havn't worked out how to use it yet. It's just not a very good unit.
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Download Cowgomoo's replay package AND ALL OF YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND.
Hellions are the key to winning a game. Try retreating from a army of charging zealots... not gonna happen unless you have hellions.
Hellions are the masters of hit and run. An army chasing a hellion is a dead one. They run in single file line as the hellion turns and fires a 10+yard fire stream... hitting every single one of them, without taking a single hit itself.
Although, I do miss spidermines. I feel very uncomfortable not having a few placed as scouts. Opponents laugh when they see 5 scvs scattered around the map lol.
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Before I post let me express that I don't think that because a unit was fun to play in SC it has to be in SC2. Thus I don't think that SC2 needs a vulture, or a lurker, or stacking mutas. I look forward to enjoying new units and new approaches to playing.
To begin with I was sceptical towards the helion, but after having used it in several successive TvZ games I am really beginning to enjoy this unit. With proper micro you can wreak havoc in drone lines and before the Zerg has zergling speed you can maneuver away from the lings and fire upon them in a line of fire. Against limited numbers of hydras they also work quite well.
I have also used the helion to some extent in TvP, where they are good against zealots. My only real beef with them is more of a general concern of mine regarding the way SC2 units take up too little space, which makes battles after a certain period of time has elapsed a clash between two blobs of closely packed units, where control and overview is very difficult to achieve.
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The Hellion IS incredibly lame. I don't agree with all your reasons but I do agree that it's the worst unit in SC2 mainly because it just looks stupid and has a ridiculous attack animation.
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On March 04 2010 04:16 0neder wrote:
This is a new game. The vulture won't be coming back. We need to accept this.
With that out of the way, how can the hellion be improved?
-make attack upgrade default attack
-better unit model, maybe better name?
We don't know that it's not coming back. Blizz could still put it back in during beta (they've said they'd do whatever it took). Vulture/mines could also be added later in either of the expansions.
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EPT
