On May 06 2010 03:04 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 03:02 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 06 2010 02:52 kickinhead wrote:On May 06 2010 02:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 06 2010 02:36 roemy wrote:
look... you can tell the chinese about their oppressive government, americans about their aristoratic-like lobbyism, greeks about their corruption and although true, you'll still hurt whatever pride is left and won't be greeted as a liberator or whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
this is different in that the accusations of censorship aren't even true.
nor does it have "a detrimental effect" on sales. the only occasion this will matter is when another student runs amok in his (former) school and the police find a "killer game" on his HDD which will then be hyped out of proportion by commercial media.
if that's too much for blizzard to handle, by all means.
just don't go around pointing fingers about "censorship going on in germany" You can go on and bury your head in the sand if you like. Fact-is, the game is censored in your country. If you really do have such nationalist pride that you can continue to spout xenophobic nonsense about the rest of the world and claim that there is no such thing as censorship in your own country, you're completely blind to reality. Blizzard didn't self-censor their game without outside encouragement to do so. Censorship IS going on in Germany. Deal with it. Ever thought about the fact that there is real and conclusive evidence that violence in videogames has negative effects on the violent behaviour of ppl, especially children and teenagers? You can't compare freedom of speech and stuff like that to making content age-appropriate, besides, Blizzard CHOSE to tone down the violence to sell more copies of the game in germany, which has absolutely nothing to do with censorship. About totally putting games/movies on the index is another topic and I don't agree with stuff like that at all, but it has nothing to do with SC2 in Germany. Besides, I didn't feel the slightest undertone of "nationalist pride" or "xenophobia" in roemy's post, whilst your own post was basically nothing but exactly that. -.-° Exactly what? I'm saying censorship is becoming a world-wide issue. It's xenophobic to assume the Chinese are the only ones who are heavy-handed in applying limitations on what is suitable for the public. I've worked for years in the communications industry in my own country and abroad and I can tell you that you're absolutely wrong to assume that violent video-games or shows, movies, etc. have any sort of relatable effect on the tendencies of youth or any other sub-strata of society that isn't already pre-disposed to violence. There hasn't been a shred of scientific evidence to back up those claims, dispite the fact that groups have unscrupulously promoted the idea for decades because of the popular morality movements that have come up since the 80s. READ THIS: Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 02:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Listen man... I did extensive research on violence in computer games and the effect on adults, young people and children. The effects themselves does not in ANY way justify censorship in this scale, and the censorship going on in the oriental countries is just plain out of this world. I'm a second year psychology major currently conducting an empirical study on this topic and have read over 50 papers about media violence and the evidence is quite conclusive: Media violence leads to more violent thoughts, which leads to more violent behaviour. With Blood clearly being something that will additionally make violent thoughts more accessible in your memory and therefore also highten the possibility of violent behaviour. Of course it's hard to distinguish how big the effect of this (removal of the Blood in SC2) will be exactly, but you just have to start to draw the line somewhere. Don't get my wrong - I think blaming Videogames on increased violent behaviour in today's youth is quite hypocritical, because most of the negativ effects violent video games have on people are also found in other violent media, but hey - that's how live works unfortunately. Not all to long ago it was rock'n'roll-music that was the scapegoat, then it was the TV and Movies, then it was Marylin Manson, now Videogames are to blame... Nonetheless, empirical evidence supports the general Idea...
I've read those "countless" reports aswell. And most of them are biased as hell, those that objectively conclude that there MIGHT be violent effects from playing video games are probaly right, however, it is abit of a stretch to censor the games, because the amount of violent behaviour displayed by SANE, and NORMAL people have been minimal at best. Also, alot of the effects are INconclusive, because there are simply too many factors effecting the formula, to really say IF in actuality games provoke enough violence to make any difference.. and if so, HOW.
Should we ban all violent games, because SOME, and i'm talking very very few people, have preexisting mental problems, who have nothing to do with gaming or entertainment, but MIGHT, be influnced by violence in games to an extent?
It's Hypocrisy
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On May 06 2010 03:13 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 03:04 kickinhead wrote:On May 06 2010 03:02 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 06 2010 02:52 kickinhead wrote:On May 06 2010 02:41 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 06 2010 02:36 roemy wrote:
look... you can tell the chinese about their oppressive government, americans about their aristoratic-like lobbyism, greeks about their corruption and although true, you'll still hurt whatever pride is left and won't be greeted as a liberator or whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.
this is different in that the accusations of censorship aren't even true.
nor does it have "a detrimental effect" on sales. the only occasion this will matter is when another student runs amok in his (former) school and the police find a "killer game" on his HDD which will then be hyped out of proportion by commercial media.
if that's too much for blizzard to handle, by all means.
just don't go around pointing fingers about "censorship going on in germany" You can go on and bury your head in the sand if you like. Fact-is, the game is censored in your country. If you really do have such nationalist pride that you can continue to spout xenophobic nonsense about the rest of the world and claim that there is no such thing as censorship in your own country, you're completely blind to reality. Blizzard didn't self-censor their game without outside encouragement to do so. Censorship IS going on in Germany. Deal with it. Ever thought about the fact that there is real and conclusive evidence that violence in videogames has negative effects on the violent behaviour of ppl, especially children and teenagers? You can't compare freedom of speech and stuff like that to making content age-appropriate, besides, Blizzard CHOSE to tone down the violence to sell more copies of the game in germany, which has absolutely nothing to do with censorship. About totally putting games/movies on the index is another topic and I don't agree with stuff like that at all, but it has nothing to do with SC2 in Germany. Besides, I didn't feel the slightest undertone of "nationalist pride" or "xenophobia" in roemy's post, whilst your own post was basically nothing but exactly that. -.-° Exactly what? I'm saying censorship is becoming a world-wide issue. It's xenophobic to assume the Chinese are the only ones who are heavy-handed in applying limitations on what is suitable for the public. I've worked for years in the communications industry in my own country and abroad and I can tell you that you're absolutely wrong to assume that violent video-games or shows, movies, etc. have any sort of relatable effect on the tendencies of youth or any other sub-strata of society that isn't already pre-disposed to violence. There hasn't been a shred of scientific evidence to back up those claims, dispite the fact that groups have unscrupulously promoted the idea for decades because of the popular morality movements that have come up since the 80s. READ THIS: On May 06 2010 02:53 MasterFischer wrote:
Listen man... I did extensive research on violence in computer games and the effect on adults, young people and children. The effects themselves does not in ANY way justify censorship in this scale, and the censorship going on in the oriental countries is just plain out of this world. I'm a second year psychology major currently conducting an empirical study on this topic and have read over 50 papers about media violence and the evidence is quite conclusive: Media violence leads to more violent thoughts, which leads to more violent behaviour. With Blood clearly being something that will additionally make violent thoughts more accessible in your memory and therefore also highten the possibility of violent behaviour. Of course it's hard to distinguish how big the effect of this (removal of the Blood in SC2) will be exactly, but you just have to start to draw the line somewhere. Don't get my wrong - I think blaming Videogames on increased violent behaviour in today's youth is quite hypocritical, because most of the negativ effects violent video games have on people are also found in other violent media, but hey - that's how live works unfortunately. Not all to long ago it was rock'n'roll-music that was the scapegoat, then it was the TV and Movies, then it was Marylin Manson, now Videogames are to blame... Nonetheless, empirical evidence supports the general Idea... I've read those "countless" reports aswell. And most of them are biased as hell, those that objectively conclude that there MIGHT be violent effects from playing video games are probaly right, however, it is abit of a stretch to censor the games, because the amount of violent behaviour displayed by SANE, and NORMAL people have been minimal at best. Also, alot of the effects are INconclusive, because there are simply too many factors effecting the formula, to really say IF in actuality games provoke enough violence to make any difference.. and if so, HOW. Should we ban all violent games, because SOME, and i'm talking very very few people, have preexisting mental problems, who have nothing to do with gaming or entertainment, but MIGHT, be influnced by violence in games to an extent? It's Hypocrisy
I'm not talking about reports, I'm talking about scientific studies which are by definition objective and therefore unbiased. Also, the effects aren't inconclusive but clearly tested and those many other factors that could be involved carefully ruled out by a good design of the study.
I highly recommend searching those Papers and reading them, if you are interested in real scientific evidence and not only media-hyped make-believe and poorly designed convenience-studies.
Susan Villani (2001), Impact of Media on Children and Adolescents: A 10-year Review of the Research. Research Update Review, April, 392-401
L. Rowell Huesmann, (2007). The Impact of Electronic Media Violence: Scientific Theory and Research. Journal of Adolescent Health, 41, 6-13
C.A. Anderson, A.J. Benjamin Jr., B.D. Bartholow, (1998), Does the Gun pull the Trugger? Automatic Priming Effects of Weapon Pictures and Weapon Names, Psychological Science, Vol. 9, NO. 4 JULY, 308-314
Anderson, A., Berkowitz, L., Donnerstein, E., Huesmann, L., Johnson, J., Linz, D., Malamuth, N., Wartella, E. (2003). The Influence Of Media Violence On Youth. Psychological Science In The Public Interest 4 (3). S. 81-110
Anderson, C., Shibuya, A., Ihori, N., Swing, E., Bushman, B., Sakamoto, A., Rothstein, H., Saleem, M. (2010) Violent Video Game Effects on Aggression, Empathy, and Prosocial Behavior in Eastern and Western Countries: A Meta-Analytic Review. Psychological Bulletin, 136 (2). S. 151–173
I have lot's more, but those are the main ones cited in the study conducted by my colleagues and me.
So here is the evidence - take it or leave it. ^^'
But as said before - I DO think it's hypocritical as well and that ppl tend to make it easy for themselves...
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In most of Europe including the UK, where the PEGI rating system is used, SC2 got a 16 rating, and as it stands now, it will remain unchanged and get a 12 rating in Germany (see Opossum's post above). I have no idea why Blizz has to sell to 12 year olds in Germany while settling for a 16 rating all over the rest of Europe, but it's funny how this situation gives us a discussion about censorship in Germany. (I don't even want to mention the 18 rating in Korea ... ooops.)
I've been pissed off about games being cut in my country many times. I buy imports or use uncut patches. As an adult, I don't want nor need the government to tell me what games I can play. But this is about children. Do you want it to be legal to sell hardcore porn and horror movies to children? If not, you have to draw the line somewhere. True censorship, i.e. not letting the public get access to certain content, has never been at issue with SC2, because this is just about an age requirement (every adult can freely buy it, talk about it, write about it, sell it etc.), plus the content in question were some death animations, and therefore nothing political. Using the term censorship here is therefore a little bit of a stretch. And whoever seriously makes nazi analogies when talking about changing some death animations in a strategy game to make it more suitable to 12 year olds should just humbly apologize to all nazi victims and those of dictatorship violence and oppression everywhere, get some history lessons and until then shut the fuck up. You are about as wrong and off as you can get.
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EPT
