xOMerikh here and I've been thinking up a unit composition for BIOMECH and I was hoping to get the opinion of others in on the workings and openings for it. I have tested this mainly in TvZ but in theory it could do ok in other matchups. I'd like to dub this something Grim reaper related because of my obsession with that individual entity, but I feel it'd get better received into the sc2 community just by naming it a upgraded version of SKTerran.
Replay of the game I first Tested it in - http://drop.sc/305461 I play very poorly and lose focus on the game, but as a Diamond player vs a High masters (WoL) [Plat vs GM hots] I think i did very well in most of the engagemtns, and if I had expanded would have had a chance to even win the game.
Give or take vikings because of need to counter Corruptors with something other then pure raven.
In my testing it was best to open up with a 13 gas early reaper harass followed by a fast expansion and quick seige (almost a 1/1/1). I had alot of trouble with the new muta in the early stages of testing, and as such I figured out that going marine tank on 2base whal building your third helped negate that with good marine positioning.
As you take your third you want to transition into heavier marauder production, to deal with ultralisks or Roach Hydra compositions. You also want to throw down some star ports with techlabs and the raven energy upgrade asap.
Basically from here you wanna gain and retain a higher raven count, whal keeping multiple reactored factories (once the research is finished, you'd remove the factory from the tech lab and give it to a star-port or a barracks unless you need thors for high muta count)
And another key point of any lategame TvZ, is putting up Planetary Fortess' to create and narrow chokepoints for defensive fallback should something go horribly horribly wrong.
I've done some limited testing with this myself, but from my testing it has done very well in competing with the lategame TvZ races without forcing you to go mech [For the Bio-Mech Lovers like me] But I would love the opinion and testing /feedback of others. I personally would love to avoid playing Mech and with this composition i believe it is at least possible in TvZ. I'm also contemplaying a very low tank count to keep single lings from running in and popping mines, but I'm not skilled enough to even craft/handle this composition efficiently, much less start adding things to it before I'm certian its strong and stable by itself. Note- I typed this in kind of a hurry, if you have any questions or concerns please let me know and I'll tidy up the post in that area to clarify what I mean.
On February 18 2013 10:12 Killmouse wrote: beastyqt was doin a similiar strat as far as i know workjs good in tvz
I only saw beasty doing MMM+mine, did he add ravens in aswell? (I took the mine strategy from him tbh, then I wondered how i could make it better late game xD)
On February 18 2013 10:12 Killmouse wrote: beastyqt was doin a similiar strat as far as i know workjs good in tvz
I only saw beasty doing MMM+mine, did he add ravens in aswell? (I took the mine strategy from him tbh, then I wondered how i could make it better late game xD)
lets keep SK out of the name imo, until someone writes a really nice guide for it
edit: OP is suggesting blindly building marauders against zerg on a 3 base econ pre2/2 push. doesn't sound like a well thought out build order when the alternative is widow mines and marauders do pretty badly vs anything besides roaches/ultras
Been Doing this on WoL with MarineKing's style an adding raves, The real deal here is, WHEN to add Ravens, you can play MMM, and add widow mines for counter attacks, but you will have a lot of trouble with infestor viper play, unless you have amazing micro. In HOTS this has a lot more succes rate, with widow mines and less energy for seeker missels, but you limit yourself to amazingly good seeker hits :D, it's a hard composition to achieve, but imo 140% mobility, it rewards a Multitasking player
On February 19 2013 01:49 never_Nal wrote: Been Doing this on WoL with MarineKing's style an adding raves, The real deal here is, WHEN to add Ravens, you can play MMM, and add widow mines for counter attacks, but you will have a lot of trouble with infestor viper play, unless you have amazing micro. In HOTS this has a lot more succes rate, with widow mines and less energy for seeker missels, but you limit yourself to amazingly good seeker hits :D, it's a hard composition to achieve, but imo 140% mobility, it rewards a Multitasking player
I've found that adding ghosts with cloak deals quite well with blinding cloud and FG. However, it can be difficult since it requires more control than usual and one mistake can be very, very costly. On the upside, getting EMPs off can easily turn the tide to the SK style play, especially if the main battle concludes efficiently. The follow up multi pronged drop will annihilate the Z. Also these days, Z favours ultras more than broodlords, especially since they synergise so well with BC and FG, which makes ghosts a far more valuable unit than ravens or vikings to be honest.
It has potential, the problem is medivacs take up starport production time and don't give that barrier that medics gave in BW, to make 2 medivacs it requires 200 gas.. basically a raven and you have to dedicate one starport to it. but I love the style so I'll give it a try.
On February 19 2013 02:26 Tsuycc wrote: It has potential, the problem is medivacs take up starport production time and don't give that barrier that medics gave in BW, to make 2 medivacs it requires 200 gas.. basically a raven and you have to dedicate one starport to it. but I love the style so I'll give it a try.
I play mech so I don't personally have a problem with the starport time, but recently it seems one of the best things to do even with bio tvz late game is to have starports ready for vikings. Admittedly you could go for 2 reactors, but it's pretty beneficial to go for a few techlabbed starports as although you're getting 1 at a time, it gives you the options of ravens and MMM doesn't use much gas late game atleast.
On February 18 2013 09:50 Sammael wrote: Replay of the game I first Tested it in - http://drop.sc/305461 I play very poorly and lose focus on the game, but as a Diamond player vs a High masters (WoL) [Plat vs GM hots]
I checked the replay, purely based on that, this Zerg is not high masters, if masters at all. I could clearly tell from:
- Over saturation on the main, while under saturating his natural. - Going behond the 24 worker limit on his main, while having a third he could transfer them to. - He gets late Muta's and trades them cost inefficient in open places, no need to engage. - Edit: Look at 17:30 for example, 24 drones in his main while there are only 3 patches left. 18 drones in his natural, while he has 5 bases, 1 of them doesn't even have drones.
Well, maybe he is high masters, in WoL, 1 game says very little. But in this game he was playing like a diamond at best.
You can cut out the Siege Tanks if you don't see him going for Roach pressure and go for Widow Mines to defend Zergling/Baneling pressure and get more bio upgrades with the extra gas- even double engineering bays if you want to be greedy.
I recommend more Widow Mine usage (actually, I recommend to get them and phase out Tanks unless the Zerg is going Roach/Hydra) because they make a small MMM force twice as strong or stronger against packs of Zerglings due to their huge splash damage, letting you split up your army more and really make him multitask etc to try and deal with it.
I don't like getting Ravens before the late-game because they're bad earlier on. Every Zerg unit with a speed upgrade can run away from HSM, and the only thing PDD is useful for is against Hydralisks and to a lesser extent vs Queens.
Instead, Medivacs are a good gas dump before the late-game when the Zerg starts to get Infestors, Ultralisks, and or Broodlords which you actually can hit with HSM's since Ultralisks want to be taking and doing damage and almost never retreat, Infestors are slow, and Broodlords are extremely slow. The new afterburners do wonders for it's usefulness mid to late-game, letting you do large drops without fear of losing them for nothing, and the ability to run the Medivacs away if you know your force is going to be taken out shortly.
Here are some things I only lose to in a blue moon and why:
-Ultralisks + X. Widow Mines do huge amounts of damage to the Ultralisks themselves, plus a bunch of AoE to any nearby Ling/Bane, letting me kite them to the end of the earth and back with Marauder/Medivac without getting chewed apart by Zerglings or blasted into oblivion by Banelings.
-Ling/Bane or Muta + X. Widow Mines do too much AoE to the Ling/Bane and do moderately good AoE to the Mutalisks while instantly killing one. This lets the MMM clean up everything else with ease.
A couple of tips for Widow Mine usage:
-Don't clump up your Widow Mines whenever possible. It's possible for them to overkill on clumps of units by them shooting at slightly different targets- for example, five mines target five banes that are clumped up, they all shoot, and all the banes die. The exception is against Roaches where it takes several shots to kill them, but if there are any Zerglings or Banelings you really don't want to clump them up. It takes a lot of APM but it's better than wasting shots.
-When spreading out your Widow Mines, have the front line be where a number of them are focused, then have a bunch more spread out behind them like a cone. Kite your bio back when the enemy engages it, letting as many mines shoot as possible.
MMM + mines is standard, but I don't think this strat is comparable to SK terran as ravens are more situational than vessels. They really are only good against zergs going air, possibly roach/hydra but horrible against any ling/bane/muta/ultra armies.
I personally feel just more comfortable using ravens with mech, as they are much less mobile than science vessels were. Bio in SC2 means being all over the place at once with drops and multi-pronged attacks, and the raven doesn't really work that way.
You can cut out the Siege Tanks if you don't see him going for Roach pressure and go for Widow Mines to defend Zergling/Baneling pressure and get more bio upgrades with the extra gas- even double engineering bays if you want to be greedy.
I recommend more Widow Mine usage (actually, I recommend to get them and phase out Tanks unless the Zerg is going Roach/Hydra) because they make a small MMM force twice as strong or stronger against packs of Zerglings due to their huge splash damage, letting you split up your army more and really make him multitask etc to try and deal with it.
I don't like getting Ravens before the late-game because they're bad earlier on. Every Zerg unit with a speed upgrade can run away from HSM, and the only thing PDD is useful for is against Hydralisks and to a lesser extent vs Queens.
Instead, Medivacs are a good gas dump before the late-game when the Zerg starts to get Infestors, Ultralisks, and or Broodlords which you actually can hit with HSM's since Ultralisks want to be taking and doing damage and almost never retreat, Infestors are slow, and Broodlords are extremely slow. The new afterburners do wonders for it's usefulness mid to late-game, letting you do large drops without fear of losing them for nothing, and the ability to run the Medivacs away if you know your force is going to be taken out shortly.
Here are some things I only lose to in a blue moon and why:
-Ultralisks + X. Widow Mines do huge amounts of damage to the Ultralisks themselves, plus a bunch of AoE to any nearby Ling/Bane, letting me kite them to the end of the earth and back with Marauder/Medivac without getting chewed apart by Zerglings or blasted into oblivion by Banelings.
-Ling/Bane or Muta + X. Widow Mines do too much AoE to the Ling/Bane and do moderately good AoE to the Mutalisks while instantly killing one. This lets the MMM clean up everything else with ease.
A couple of tips for Widow Mine usage:
-Don't clump up your Widow Mines whenever possible. It's possible for them to overkill on clumps of units by them shooting at slightly different targets- for example, five mines target five banes that are clumped up, they all shoot, and all the banes die. The exception is against Roaches where it takes several shots to kill them, but if there are any Zerglings or Banelings you really don't want to clump them up. It takes a lot of APM but it's better than wasting shots.
-When spreading out your Widow Mines, have the front line be where a number of them are focused, then have a bunch more spread out behind them like a cone. Kite your bio back when the enemy engages it, letting as many mines shoot as possible.
Well This is just a loose idea, and up for suggestions and editing. I've been doing marine tank pushes as I transition, and it free's up alot of gas after the transition, gets rid of otherwise useless pushes around 10-12 to try and eliminate a third in the best case.
It allows you to afford continual double ups after the transition and even raven upgrade if you havn't gotten/ afforded it yet. But again, im only diamond, its very possible the reason I was able to afford the first stage of upgrades and such before pushing was just bad macro.
But this style allows an extremely safe early third with the tank presence. (Even blind countered a 7rr, i scouted it at normal time but was planning to get tanks early anyway, and just completely shut it down. Today alone I've stopped a bane bust, a roach bane, and a 7rr with fast tanks). But as you said it does tie up alot of gas, I just don't have too much faith in small widow mine numbers defending early pressure because of their long reload time.
lets keep SK out of the name imo, until someone writes a really nice guide for it
edit: OP is suggesting blindly building marauders against zerg on a 3 base econ pre2/2 push. doesn't sound like a well thought out build order when the alternative is widow mines and marauders do pretty badly vs anything besides roaches/ultras
When focusing on bio marauder heavy does well tanking lings, they don't do as much dps as marines now, but when you're not focusing on a composition with alot of reliable AoE to kill banelings (no tanks, relies a bit on zerg walking over mines and seekermissile) marauders absorb banelings, tank lings, allow you to snipe infestors and do well vs roaches. The only unit they themselves aren't good against when in this composition are Hydras, and broodlords.
I even mentioned the 'guide' was more of a general Idea, hence why this is a discussion thread as opposed to an idea and guide in itself. Just a summary of how I did it a few games, and discussion on the strategy in general.
You can cut out the Siege Tanks if you don't see him going for Roach pressure and go for Widow Mines to defend Zergling/Baneling pressure and get more bio upgrades with the extra gas- even double engineering bays if you want to be greedy.
I recommend more Widow Mine usage (actually, I recommend to get them and phase out Tanks unless the Zerg is going Roach/Hydra) because they make a small MMM force twice as strong or stronger against packs of Zerglings due to their huge splash damage, letting you split up your army more and really make him multitask etc to try and deal with it.
I don't like getting Ravens before the late-game because they're bad earlier on. Every Zerg unit with a speed upgrade can run away from HSM, and the only thing PDD is useful for is against Hydralisks and to a lesser extent vs Queens.
Instead, Medivacs are a good gas dump before the late-game when the Zerg starts to get Infestors, Ultralisks, and or Broodlords which you actually can hit with HSM's since Ultralisks want to be taking and doing damage and almost never retreat, Infestors are slow, and Broodlords are extremely slow. The new afterburners do wonders for it's usefulness mid to late-game, letting you do large drops without fear of losing them for nothing, and the ability to run the Medivacs away if you know your force is going to be taken out shortly.
Here are some things I only lose to in a blue moon and why:
-Ultralisks + X. Widow Mines do huge amounts of damage to the Ultralisks themselves, plus a bunch of AoE to any nearby Ling/Bane, letting me kite them to the end of the earth and back with Marauder/Medivac without getting chewed apart by Zerglings or blasted into oblivion by Banelings.
-Ling/Bane or Muta + X. Widow Mines do too much AoE to the Ling/Bane and do moderately good AoE to the Mutalisks while instantly killing one. This lets the MMM clean up everything else with ease.
A couple of tips for Widow Mine usage:
-Don't clump up your Widow Mines whenever possible. It's possible for them to overkill on clumps of units by them shooting at slightly different targets- for example, five mines target five banes that are clumped up, they all shoot, and all the banes die. The exception is against Roaches where it takes several shots to kill them, but if there are any Zerglings or Banelings you really don't want to clump them up. It takes a lot of APM but it's better than wasting shots.
-When spreading out your Widow Mines, have the front line be where a number of them are focused, then have a bunch more spread out behind them like a cone. Kite your bio back when the enemy engages it, letting as many mines shoot as possible.
Well This is just a loose idea, and up for suggestions and editing. I've been doing marine tank pushes as I transition, and it free's up alot of gas after the transition, gets rid of otherwise useless pushes aroudn 10-12 to try and eliminate a third in the best case.
It allows you to afford continual double ups after the transition and even raven upgrade if you havn't gotten/ afforded it yet. But again, im only diamond, its very possible the reason I was able to affoird the first stage of upgrades and such before pushing was just bad macro.
But this style allows an extremely safe early third with the tank presence. (Even blidcountered a 7rr, i scouted it at normal time but was planning to get tanks early anyway, and just completely shut it down. Today alone I've stopped a bane bust, a roach bane, and a 7rr with fast tanks). But as you said it does tie up alot of gas, I just don't have too much faith in small widow mine numbers defending early pressure because of their long reload time.
Fast Tanks are better for defending Baneling or Roach pressure early on since you get free siege mode, so just a fast Factory in general is good. Still, Widow Mines are cheap and do a lot of burst damage letting you hold all-in's or early rushes that involve a lot of Zerglings much more easily and you can still do something like get two Widow Mines and then switch to Tanks, or vice versa.
I'd transition out of Tanks after you get 2 or so to hold off all-in's as Widow Mines just have crazy good burst damage for their cost and supply despite having less range and DPS as opposed to burst damage. Of course that's up to you, but one-shotting dozens of Zerglings and Banelings is hard to pass up.
I suppose the bottom line is that both have advantages and disadvantages; personally I prefer Widow Mines as I open with a 3 Reaper rush and transition out of Reapers, giving me two Barracks to build a bunch of Marines with, letting me hold early pressure fairly easily at the cost of economy and a slightly delayed Factory.
I dont prefer ravens vZ, the missiles are really bad unless they are going broodlords, otherwise its better to just build units and kill the zerg. I've lost quite a few games because I went ravens against ling bling ultra infestor. Mines and medivacs are minerals and gas more well spent late game if they arent going broodlord
On February 19 2013 08:39 intense555 wrote: I dont prefer ravens vZ, the missiles are really bad unless they are going broodlords, otherwise its better to just build units and kill the zerg. I've lost quite a few games because I went ravens against ling bling ultra infestor. Mines and medivacs are minerals and gas more well spent late game if they arent going broodlord
What do you spend gas on once hive tech is out and you have 4 / 5 bases? Do you really build a proleague-style medivac fleet or something?
I mean, I've also had some kind-of-awful experiences with ravens vs ultralisks, but I dunno what else to do with my gas, and tanks are a waste past lair.
I've seen whatshisface the extraordinary korean terran who streams HotS roll around the map with a ungodly-massive capital deathfleet, but I completely missed what happened in that game up till hive tech.
When I watch Thorzain play, he just gets rolled by completely-arbitrary unit compositions from shitty b-team zergs who are guaranteed the entire map and unlimited funds, regardless of whether or not they can multitask at all. How do you spoon someone who comes at you with a chainsaw?
On February 19 2013 08:39 intense555 wrote: I dont prefer ravens vZ, the missiles are really bad unless they are going broodlords, otherwise its better to just build units and kill the zerg. I've lost quite a few games because I went ravens against ling bling ultra infestor. Mines and medivacs are minerals and gas more well spent late game if they arent going broodlord
In that scenario i just try to find the zerg army before they engage me. I spread my raven and depending on the scenario (count of ultras vs infestors) I normally drop one seekr on the banes, then the rest focused on the ultralisks to soften them up.
And just because I enjoy outplaying my opponent, if i see them staying on a mild infestor count. I'll get 3-4 ghosts (mild as in less then 10 infestors) and cloak before I engage and seeker everything. I'll cast seekers, snipe infestors, then pull back and let the damage be done before I engage. If the zerg engages into me I kite my army back whal hold position cloaking ghosts, and emp when able, and just drop seekers on anything that is a threat, baneslings or ultras depending on numbers.
EPT
