EPTOn February 05 2013 13:38 IdrA wrote:
ugh
ugh
I wish I had your eloquence, it would have saved me the time to write my previous post.
David Kim on potential beta changes (Feb 4th,2013) - Page 10
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
I wish I had your eloquence, it would have saved me the time to write my previous post. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful. You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints. This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)? They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV. Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/ EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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Acer1791
Germany182 Posts
On February 05 2013 13:47 Patate wrote: You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints. This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)? They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV. Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/ EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think. "riot should make an rts" you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all  | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:07 RaiKageRyu wrote: If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much. This has an impact on other matchups now.. making them do extra vs bio does not. So it's a good thing. | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:07 RaiKageRyu wrote: If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much. you actually make a very interesting suggestion. I like the idea of it, wouldn't mind seeing it in a patch to see how it would go. If it's dumb they can just remove it later... I feel like Blizzard is missing their chance to test things like this. Such a shame  | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:06 Acer1791 wrote: i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think. "riot should make an rts" you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all Yes I think they would do better. Blizzard has clearly no idea what they are doing right now. It's just that the general crowd gives them so much sympathy because we really wanted the new Starcraft. Just like people were fooled into Diablo 3 because they wanted the new Diablo. (SC2 is nowhere as bad as D3 though) | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
On February 05 2013 13:19 Plansix wrote: I don't even have words....I was mocking people like you....I can't. God damn it. He is right though, the viewership spiked for 3 weeks after HotS beta was opened up and now its at no-man's land. There's nothing left to care about. People got super excited about the kespa koreans coming along and nothing happened. There are still a ton of tournaments to watch but zero reason to watch them. The game has stabilized on shitty 3 base turtle play, 2 base allins are rare, and 1 base allins non-existent outside mirrors. No amount of patches will fix this, it was bound to end up this way from the beginning just from the way the game was designed. Only a completely overhaul of the game will fix this, a less complete solution, and more likely to happen is the map makers will fix the game. Just as they did before when we were forced to play awful blizzard maps like Steppes of War. We will start to see maps with ridiculously choked pathways to emulate broodwar's inefficient pathing, more spread out bases, and less mineral patches and gas at each base. The current kespa maps are already moving in this direction. And if this doesn't happen, its been a fun ride. SC2 will be forced to stay on life support until after Blizzard releases Legacy of the Void. They need to keep the illusion that it has a successful pro-scene until they are done milking the series. The real question is, who will dictate the future of the franchise, Blizzard? or the Community? | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:16 Zombo Joe wrote: He is right though, the viewership spiked for 3 weeks after HotS beta was opened up and now its at no-man's land. There's nothing left to care about. People got super excited about the kespa koreans coming along and nothing happened. There are still a ton of tournaments to watch but zero reason to watch them. The game has stabilized on shitty 3 base turtle play, 2 base allins are rare, and 1 base allins non-existent outside mirrors. No amount of patches will fix this, it was bound to end up this way from the beginning just from the way the game was designed. Only a completely overhaul of the game will fix this, a less complete solution, and more likely to happen is the map makers will fix the game. Just as they did before when we were forced to play awful blizzard maps like Steppes of War. We will start to see maps with ridiculously choked pathways to emulate broodwar's inefficient pathing, more spread out bases, and less mineral patches and gas at each base. The current kespa maps are already moving in this direction. And if this doesn't happen, its been a fun ride. SC2 will be forced to stay on life support until after Blizzard releases Legacy of the Void. They need to keep the illusion that it has a successful pro-scene until they are done milking the series. The real question is, who will dictate the future of the franchise, Blizzard? or the Community? Even though Brood War has had a pretty stagnant metagame in the past years, it is the skill of the player that dictates the winner. SC2 has a lower skill ceiling, therefore the outcomes are way more volatile (no bonjwas, no legacies), and this is one of the problem of the game. Zombo Joe has written a pretty good post, tbh. | ||
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Acer1791
Germany182 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:14 Patate wrote: Yes I think they would do better. Blizzard has clearly no idea what they are doing right now. It's just that the general crowd gives them so much sympathy because we really wanted the new Starcraft. Just like people were fooled into Diablo 3 because they wanted the new Diablo. (SC2 is nowhere as bad as D3 though) i dont want to start a discussion about lol, but i dont think riot would take the good parts about broodwar (they are pretty all parts of why broodwar is more difficult!) and make a game with these. they didnt do that with lol (dota), so i wonder why you would think they would make the new broodwar?! and maybe MAYBE blizzard will change some more big things even after release, well at least i hope so^^ | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:21 Acer1791 wrote: i dont want to start a discussion about lol, but i dont think riot would take the good parts about brrodwar (they are pretty all parts of why broodwar is more difficult!) and make a game with these. they didnt do that with lol (dota), so i wonder why you would think they would make the new broodwar?! and maybe MAYBE blizzard will change some more big things even after release, well at least i hope so^^ Although I agree that DoTA2 is a more complexe game than LoL, it is laughable to think it is more succesful or "more crowd pleasing". LoL has totally nailed it, for the MoBA genre. And I do think Riot would actually know that they cannot do the same concept with the RTS genre and win the "e-sports" war. Edit: This was totally off-topic though, let's not talk about something else than this useless patch | ||
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Innovation
United States284 Posts
Prediction: Blizzard will nerf or revert the mutalisk (because it's being used too much in all matchups) before it fixes toss and terran sky dominance, not realizing that the mutalisk is the only thing propping up the matchup stats essentially breaking zerg until they realize they needed to fix the other issues a long time ago. | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
On February 05 2013 04:02 nomyx wrote: Okay, so I just did some math. one Mutalisk (9 damage) attacking Spore (1 armor) deals 8 damage every attack. Divide this by the attack cooldown to get your DPS of 5.2 ten mutas attacking one spore crawler deal 52 damage each second, taking it a total of 7.69 seconds to kill one spore in this time, the spore obviously fights back. It will deal 30 damage each attack, with an attack cooldown of .8608. The DPS of the spore will be 34.85. During the 7.69 seconds it takes to kill a spore, it will deal 267.99 damage to the flock of mutalisks. This is enough DPS to have just one spore crawler (with nothing else attacking the mutas) kill two whole mutalisks in the time. Both Mutas and spores have the minor zerg regen but I don't think it changes the outcome. So, one spore (75 minerals + 50 for drone = 125) kills 2 mutas (200/200). This doesn't take into account a spore + queen, a spore + queen and transfusions, or multiple spores. I think a buff to the hydralisk would be a better option to shutting down mass mutas. Well spore crawlers do have a significant range advantage as well, and it is not like if the opponent goes muta you want to only build 1 spore... | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Not even going to comment on mech anymore as it's clear to me they are either unwilling or incapable to do anything about it. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
Also, 37 days until official HotS release! Can't wait myself. Hopefully the game will be decently balanced (I expect a day 1 patch). Here's to another 3 years Um... Yeah... *looks at calendar and then back* 34 days til HOTS release :D | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:47 GorGor wrote: Well spore crawlers do have a significant range advantage as well, and it is not like if the opponent goes muta you want to only build 1 spore... Regen does change the outcome. 30 damage a shot, muta's have 120hp and 1hp/s - you need to do 150 damage to kill one, so 300 damage to kill both, because 4 hits isnt enough. The fifth hit comes far too early for the muta to have regenerated enough to live through it though, so its pretty clean kills | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
On February 05 2013 11:20 MilesTeg wrote: Seriously, this patch is just heart breaking. Looking back at the past few patches, they've made a series of very bad moves, and now they're building on a horrible foundation. Those Muta changes are the best example of that. First they add a ton of "Muta killers" for no reason, then they buff Mutas, they then buff "Muta killers" more... and now they keep adding more stuff to deal with a problem they created for no reason. I see a pretty obvious solution to the Muta problem: back to WoL Mutas, Mines can't shoot up, Phoenix back to WoL stats. The thing they're unwilling to do is say: ok, we made a mistake, let's revert those changes. And Mutas are just an example. The fungal changes were a bad move. The tank buff was a bad move. The oracle change was a bad move (what the hell is that unit supposed to be anyway? a spellcaster? just a normal fighting air to ground unit? why does it even need energy?). And then there are some other issues, like Mines, which don't really work as intended, useless in ZvP where they were supposed to make mech viable, and stupidly strong in ZvT. I can live with a bad patch, like the horrible patch 11. But after a month, they've kept trying to work around the issues they created in that patch, further breaking the game. The first step should be to revert some of the bad moves they made. I really agree with what this guy said. It's one big fault snowballing over and over. The oracle becoming this caster but not really caster unit, the widow mine attacking air (when was the last time Terrans had problem vs air? Look at what this did: muta buff then phoenix range buff then now spore buff ...). | ||
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looken
727 Posts
On February 05 2013 14:13 Patate wrote: This has an impact on other matchups now.. making them do extra vs bio does not. So it's a good thing. make them do splash against bio then...  | ||
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ETisME
12896 Posts
The rest I am not sure. spending 100 gas for overlord speed that early is really expensive. The spore+muta+fungal relationship will be difficult to fix. That spore change especially feels really weird. I am surprised there is no planned change to swarm host, corruptor and overseer. | ||
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