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On January 23 2013 00:14 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 11:28 Doc Brawler wrote:
New hellbat replaces warhound. Sort of...
The new Hellbat, with its ridiculous damage is a great "addition" to the traditional SC2 mech army. It's basically a crazy strong pseudo-bio unit that supports tanks. T mech players can now multi-pronged harass with hellbat drops, just like a bio player would, and snipe tech structures or DECIMATE mineral lines. Plus their new damage, makes them great in straight up fights and helps deal with the dreaded immortal. Think about it: hellbats can be REACTORED and do almost their full damage to immortals, with a decently fast fire rate, and they are not considered armored. These things are definitely the missing link to mech TvP IMO.
However, just like any T army vs protoss, a healthy balance in needed. Think of how good mass charge-lot archon does against marauder heavy compositions, or how colo armies will shread bio balls without vikings.
Ravens can be slowly accrued over the corse of a game to deal with literally any protoss unit composition, especially sky toss. The Hellbat with it's pathetic range and slow moving speed is only useful against melee units anything else should never get hit by a Hellbat. They're incredibly easy to just outmaneuver.
Even if they can not do damage they prevent the enemy from getting into your ball. They are meat shields at worst trade worthy or more at best.
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I know this is going pretty far back in the thread but the discussion of a different special ability for the warhound or other factory unit to help terran early-midgame vs toss in particular gave me a neat idea
give the warhound (or hellbat, whatever) a special aoe attack that's quite weak, but which pushes units out of its area of effect (e.g. pushing chargelots back away from sieged tanks). like a big ass flamethrower with near-negligible aoe damage but a transient forcefield-like mechanic.
would help reduce the punishment a terran takes for being sieged / unsieged in the wrong place in early/midgame tvp maybe tvz, but requires decent micro and is interesting. maybe require research
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I'm one of those Terran that kinda misses the warhound. Although it was a little bit to strong while also to easy to get to as Terran, some things it brought to an early game battlefield was very nice. Especially the microability because of it's high HP-high DPS combination.
I would love to see something done to the non-sieged Siegetank. I feel Terran has a very hard time applying pressure to a Zerg early when using tanks. It seems there never is a siegetank count, coupled with some other units, when an early tank pressure is effective or isn't either absolutely crushed by the opponent or a game ender. Also, all these pushes heavily focus on getting the tanks sieged up within an eventually effective range of the Zerg forces. The non-sieged tank addition to the effectiveness of the push is close to nihil.
What if the siege tank was a bit more versatile in its normal form? I would especially like to see it be faster and have higher amount of HP. Or like the Phoenix/Diamondback, being able to shoot while moving.
The coolest thing, imho, would be if the tank is really split in two parts, like the Hellion now is. The tank would be a (Warhound-ish) unit, until you gain the ability to siege, which might come a bit later (like on Armory). I feel this will add a lot of early versatility and might remove the passive play which seem to dominate the game recently. Also, I feel this would make a somewhat nicer stepping stone to reach a more Factory-based army versus a Protoss.
I'd love to hear what you all think about the non-sieged tank. 
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The non-sieged tank doesn't even need a gun. The unsieged mode is for driving to the next position to siege up. If you're shooting with an unsieged tank, you are doing it wrong (or are so far ahead it doesn't matter what you do). Take away the unsieged tank weapon entirely for all I care, and buff the sieged tank's weapon immensely.
Terran mech players want to siege their bloody tanks and control space. Siege tanks now are a complete waste of resources. End of story.
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i think they will end buffing the unsiege-tank, so we have another a-move unit
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On January 24 2013 04:33 ledarsi wrote:
The non-sieged tank doesn't even need a gun. The unsieged mode is for driving to the next position to siege up. If you're shooting with an unsieged tank, you are doing it wrong (or are so far ahead it doesn't matter what you do). Take away the unsieged tank weapon entirely for all I care, and buff the sieged tank's weapon immensely.
Terran mech players want to siege their bloody tanks and control space. Siege tanks now are a complete waste of resources. End of story.
The DPS in tank mode is higher than the DPS in siege mode, not including splash. The disparity is slightly bigger against armored units as well. There's certainly uses for it, whether it's mopping up after a midgame engagement (vs stalkers and zealots, especially the latter). There's Boxer's old drop harass but I haven't seen that one used in my games yet.
And no way in hell are we buffing the siege weapon again. The reduced damage for increased attack speed (BW vs SC2) was a nice touch, but it's definitely good where it is right now.
Anyways, warhounds. I like that whole push-the-units-out-of-the-way idea because honestly it's straddling the gap between the marauder, tank and thor right now and it can't go anywhere else. Although finding a balanced use for it is a different story. Or strictly anti-air attacks to make midgame less vulnerable to mutalisks and oracles until thors come out? And then somehow finding different purposes for warhound and thor.
I don't think WH removal will kill Terran, but should certainly make playing (and playing against) Terran more fun if they find something to do with it.
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On January 24 2013 04:33 ledarsi wrote:
The non-sieged tank doesn't even need a gun. The unsieged mode is for driving to the next position to siege up. If you're shooting with an unsieged tank, you are doing it wrong (or are so far ahead it doesn't matter what you do). Take away the unsieged tank weapon entirely for all I care, and buff the sieged tank's weapon immensely.
Terran mech players want to siege their bloody tanks and control space. Siege tanks now are a complete waste of resources. End of story.
TvZ Thorazine disagrees. On his stream I have seen both both advise people to and play unsieged himself vs Zerg until all swarm clouds have been planted. A lot of the time this takes place in Roach/Hydra/Viper builds where even unsieged tanks are thining out the roach count a fair bit during this time. Some Zerg don't even use the vipers just to force tanks to stay unsieged, so the fact that the tanks damage output is still have decent in this form is vital.
TvT Dragon disagrees. You can kite enemy hellbats with unsieged tanks. This is going to become a very important part of TvT over the next year. I have seen dragon do it multiple times. It makes the battle look a little like a PvP with zealot/stalker.
TvP may be the only matchup where unsieged mode is not used.
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On January 23 2013 00:14 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 11:28 Doc Brawler wrote:
New hellbat replaces warhound. Sort of...
The new Hellbat, with its ridiculous damage is a great "addition" to the traditional SC2 mech army. It's basically a crazy strong pseudo-bio unit that supports tanks. T mech players can now multi-pronged harass with hellbat drops, just like a bio player would, and snipe tech structures or DECIMATE mineral lines. Plus their new damage, makes them great in straight up fights and helps deal with the dreaded immortal. Think about it: hellbats can be REACTORED and do almost their full damage to immortals, with a decently fast fire rate, and they are not considered armored. These things are definitely the missing link to mech TvP IMO.
However, just like any T army vs protoss, a healthy balance in needed. Think of how good mass charge-lot archon does against marauder heavy compositions, or how colo armies will shread bio balls without vikings.
Ravens can be slowly accrued over the corse of a game to deal with literally any protoss unit composition, especially sky toss. The Hellbat with it's pathetic range and slow moving speed is only useful against melee units anything else should never get hit by a Hellbat. They're incredibly easy to just outmaneuver.
Basically a Zealot.
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On January 24 2013 06:45 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:14 s3rp wrote:On January 22 2013 11:28 Doc Brawler wrote:
New hellbat replaces warhound. Sort of...
The new Hellbat, with its ridiculous damage is a great "addition" to the traditional SC2 mech army. It's basically a crazy strong pseudo-bio unit that supports tanks. T mech players can now multi-pronged harass with hellbat drops, just like a bio player would, and snipe tech structures or DECIMATE mineral lines. Plus their new damage, makes them great in straight up fights and helps deal with the dreaded immortal. Think about it: hellbats can be REACTORED and do almost their full damage to immortals, with a decently fast fire rate, and they are not considered armored. These things are definitely the missing link to mech TvP IMO.
However, just like any T army vs protoss, a healthy balance in needed. Think of how good mass charge-lot archon does against marauder heavy compositions, or how colo armies will shread bio balls without vikings.
Ravens can be slowly accrued over the corse of a game to deal with literally any protoss unit composition, especially sky toss. The Hellbat with it's pathetic range and slow moving speed is only useful against melee units anything else should never get hit by a Hellbat. They're incredibly easy to just outmaneuver. Basically a Zealot.
It's exactly like a zealot, except for:
1. Effective HP lower.
2. Can not be spawned anywhere on the map.
3. Doesn't have charge.
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On January 24 2013 06:49 Sigil2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 06:45 Cloak wrote:On January 23 2013 00:14 s3rp wrote:On January 22 2013 11:28 Doc Brawler wrote:
New hellbat replaces warhound. Sort of...
The new Hellbat, with its ridiculous damage is a great "addition" to the traditional SC2 mech army. It's basically a crazy strong pseudo-bio unit that supports tanks. T mech players can now multi-pronged harass with hellbat drops, just like a bio player would, and snipe tech structures or DECIMATE mineral lines. Plus their new damage, makes them great in straight up fights and helps deal with the dreaded immortal. Think about it: hellbats can be REACTORED and do almost their full damage to immortals, with a decently fast fire rate, and they are not considered armored. These things are definitely the missing link to mech TvP IMO.
However, just like any T army vs protoss, a healthy balance in needed. Think of how good mass charge-lot archon does against marauder heavy compositions, or how colo armies will shread bio balls without vikings.
Ravens can be slowly accrued over the corse of a game to deal with literally any protoss unit composition, especially sky toss. The Hellbat with it's pathetic range and slow moving speed is only useful against melee units anything else should never get hit by a Hellbat. They're incredibly easy to just outmaneuver. Basically a Zealot. It's exactly like a zealot, except for: 1. Effective HP lower. 2. Can not be spawned anywhere on the map. 3. Doesn't have charge.
If you're going to play that game:
1. Conal AoE, counters Zealots.
2. Can morph into amazing harass unit that can destroy mineral lines in seconds, regardless of static defense.
3. Better dance moves.
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On January 24 2013 06:21 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 04:33 ledarsi wrote:
The non-sieged tank doesn't even need a gun. The unsieged mode is for driving to the next position to siege up. If you're shooting with an unsieged tank, you are doing it wrong (or are so far ahead it doesn't matter what you do). Take away the unsieged tank weapon entirely for all I care, and buff the sieged tank's weapon immensely.
Terran mech players want to siege their bloody tanks and control space. Siege tanks now are a complete waste of resources. End of story. TvZ Thorazine disagrees. On his stream I have seen both both advise people to and play unsieged himself vs Zerg until all swarm clouds have been planted. A lot of the time this takes place in Roach/Hydra/Viper builds where even unsieged tanks are thining out the roach count a fair bit during this time. Some Zerg don't even use the vipers just to force tanks to stay unsieged, so the fact that the tanks damage output is still have decent in this form is vital. TvT Dragon disagrees. You can kite enemy hellbats with unsieged tanks. This is going to become a very important part of TvT over the next year. I have seen dragon do it multiple times. It makes the battle look a little like a PvP with zealot/stalker. TvP may be the only matchup where unsieged mode is not used.
Agreed. Tank mode is incredibly useful in almost every situation alongside helbats in TvP and TvZ. Despite tanks doing more DPS when splash is considered, the high normal dps is incredibly good in chipping immortal shields so that half of the sieged tanks can deal the finishing blow from the back line. I found that having a half unsieged with half sieged tank army made a significant difference in determining army outcome. With more unsieged tanks, they're far more useful against a zealot/archon/immortal composition and trade much better even without the use of EMPs. On the otherhand, all my game experiences have found that full sieging tanks do minimal damage since 1) Immortals take 10 damage regardless with a 2.5 CD on attack. 2) Siege splash only does 35 flat when targeted on an archon regardless of how clumped the army is. Also with TvT, helbats are becoming the straight up counter to mech with focus on siege tanks. As DeCoup pointed out, having unsieged tanks are CRITICAL in overcoming mass helbat attacks since they can be kited.
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On January 24 2013 06:45 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 00:14 s3rp wrote:On January 22 2013 11:28 Doc Brawler wrote:
New hellbat replaces warhound. Sort of...
The new Hellbat, with its ridiculous damage is a great "addition" to the traditional SC2 mech army. It's basically a crazy strong pseudo-bio unit that supports tanks. T mech players can now multi-pronged harass with hellbat drops, just like a bio player would, and snipe tech structures or DECIMATE mineral lines. Plus their new damage, makes them great in straight up fights and helps deal with the dreaded immortal. Think about it: hellbats can be REACTORED and do almost their full damage to immortals, with a decently fast fire rate, and they are not considered armored. These things are definitely the missing link to mech TvP IMO.
However, just like any T army vs protoss, a healthy balance in needed. Think of how good mass charge-lot archon does against marauder heavy compositions, or how colo armies will shread bio balls without vikings.
Ravens can be slowly accrued over the corse of a game to deal with literally any protoss unit composition, especially sky toss. The Hellbat with it's pathetic range and slow moving speed is only useful against melee units anything else should never get hit by a Hellbat. They're incredibly easy to just outmaneuver. Basically a Zealot.
As useful as a Zealot before charge. And unlike Zealots there's nothing special to upgrade to make them more useful . A meelee/short range unit that is pretty slow and has no special ability to counteract that is not that useful. Hellbats stink against anything but Zerg .
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On January 25 2013 05:22 papalion wrote:
Who is "we"?
We are the TeamLiquid community. We created a thread in protest to the Warhound that (arguably) led to the Warhound being removed within ten days of the thread's creation.
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On January 25 2013 06:27 Sigil2 wrote:
We created a thread in protest to the Warhound that (arguably) led to the Warhound being removed within ten days of the thread's creation.
And now we have switched to LoL and couldn't care less if HotS is an abysmal failure?
As sad as that knee-jerk reaction was collective responsibility never works for anonymous masses.
The real problem of the community is that we couldn't work after warhound removal to make it unnecessary.
There was plenty of time to pressure Blizzard so that mech TvP would work without it.
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Since we're talking about the past, my primary reason was ...
COMMAND AND CONQUER IN SPAAAAACCCCEEEE doooo pweeee yuuuuu
I mean seriously... The thing is an exact replica of the C&C GDI unit with a Terran coloring scheme!
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As a meching terran, ,I would much prefer an agile single-target ground-to-air unit as opposed to another marauder.
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Here is what I would like to see introduce a unit that is the foil to the siege tank this unit does ok AA for mech vs single targets Thor is re-purposed for Siege Breaking and when sieged does long range AA with splash
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Whattttt... A knee jerk reaction with a lot of complaining and crying was wrong??? Weird.
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Terran already has more units and composition choices by far than either of the other races. Remove the Reaper (it's a joke unit anyway) and nerf the Widow Mine, then we'll talk.
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EPT
