On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote: for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch:
DK just posted this food for thought:
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward.
so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it
still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though
Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
I made a post on this before...
On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote: If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front.
If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge.
Have you tried Blinking?
I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink.
The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes.
These are just facts.
Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape.
The problem with your logic is that your acting as if the only situation to consider is when you have a stationary army, an unexpected infestor, and the player with the standing army sees the infestor and then you calculate whether or not he can move his army out of the fungal.
In many real-game situations, with instant cast fungal you still saw people attempting to mitigate fungal by spreading their units as or before infestors approached. Now you have an additional 0.5 seconds to spread your units when compared to WoL, where if you didn't pre-spread, they got insta-fungalled and you were screwed. The reaction time calculations are an interesting thought experiment, and certainly enlightening about some in-game situations, but I don't think your argument ends the debate at all.
So now, we're in the exact same situation as in WoL, 'pre-spread your units'. That extra 0.5 seconds is also mitigated by the extra 1 range. In effect, we have the exact same fungal as before. Can't be dodged, can only be mitigated by pre-splitting. Now, you can argue that this is fine, but you can't argue that this is in any way different from exactly what it was before.
I'm not sure how it is exactly the same. The Terran has more time to split in HotS than in WoL. So fungal has been nerfed (to what degree I'm not sure), and further tweaking of the speed/range of the projectile may be necessary, but I don't see how you can possibly say it is exactly what it was before.
Edit: I liked your in depth analysis of reaction time, but saying "1 range 100% cancels out the 0.5 second projectile travel time" is dishonest.
On December 20 2012 03:21 Gimmeurladderpoints wrote:
On December 20 2012 03:17 Ramiz1989 wrote:
On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:
On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:
On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote: for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch:
DK just posted this food for thought:
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward.
so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it
still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though
Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
Well, there are still a tons of people that won't be satisfied until the Fungal is removed or changed to slow, no matter how good/bad it is.
Yeah. Because a lot of people think it's a boring mess of a spell and zerg should not be based around that fucking mess. It maybe balanced but it still is awful.
Well Blizzard has said that they do not want the infestor to be massable. They also said they don't want to nerf it to the point where it is useless. I feel safe in saying that if this change makes infestors massable again, Blizzard will nerf it again. Welcome to the world of testing, where you try stuff until it works.
That still doesnt skips the issue of the spells effect being awful and making it harder to apply doesnt really "fix it", because it only nerfs it until Zerg players learn to use it under the new conditions ... i.e. shoot ahead of a moving group of targets. Fungals effect hasnt been changed and that is the terrible thing.
They just need to make it harder to use and the ability will likely be fine. There were plenty of abilities in BW that stunned units or locked them in place. The reason they were not massed was that they were hard to use. As long as long as fungle does not work well agaisnt everything due it being difficult to hit with, it should be ok.
I predict a speed of around 11-13 for the ability and range 8 or 9.
On December 20 2012 03:42 DemigodcelpH wrote: I'm laughing at the feeble kind of logic Zerg players tend to come up with to justify terrible changes to the game.
"You can dodge it" (hint: 15 speed is undodgable) "Longer range gives it more chances to be dodged, so the buff is okay" (LOL)
What's sad is that this was DK's actual thought process.
On December 20 2012 03:42 DemigodcelpH wrote: I'm laughing at the feeble kind of logic Zerg players tend to come up with to justify terrible changes to the game.
"You can dodge it" (hint: 15 speed is undodgable) "Longer range gives it more chances to be dodged, so the buff is okay" (LOL)
What's sad is that this was DK's actual thought process.
I think it was more along the lines of "I think they might be able to dodge it, but I can't be 100% sure. We need some really good players to mess around with this for a week or two."
On December 20 2012 03:33 Hyperionnn wrote: Great changes but fungal seems a bit weak, its cast range should be around 20
I think 25 range is more appropriate. A Zerg player in this thread said "a longer range gives it more chances to be dodged", so it's justifiable.
LOL.
THey can make fungal 100 range but then they need to slow down the speed to 0.005, and makes it so if it connects with enemy unit before it reaches its destination then it also trigger the effect.
On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote: for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch:
DK just posted this food for thought:
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward.
so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it
still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though
Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
I made a post on this before...
On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote: If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front.
If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge.
Have you tried Blinking?
I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink.
The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes.
These are just facts.
Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape.
The problem with your logic is that your acting as if the only situation to consider is when you have a stationary army, an unexpected infestor, and the player with the standing army sees the infestor and then you calculate whether or not he can move his army out of the fungal.
In many real-game situations, with instant cast fungal you still saw people attempting to mitigate fungal by spreading their units as or before infestors approached. Now you have an additional 0.5 seconds to spread your units when compared to WoL, where if you didn't pre-spread, they got insta-fungalled and you were screwed. The reaction time calculations are an interesting thought experiment, and certainly enlightening about some in-game situations, but I don't think your argument ends the debate at all.
So now, we're in the exact same situation as in WoL, 'pre-spread your units'. That extra 0.5 seconds is also mitigated by the extra 1 range. In effect, we have the exact same fungal as before. Can't be dodged, can only be mitigated by pre-splitting. Now, you can argue that this is fine, but you can't argue that this is in any way different from exactly what it was before.
I'm not sure how it is exactly the same. The Terran has more time to split in HotS than in WoL. So fungal has been nerfed (to what degree I'm not sure), and further tweaking of the speed/range of the projectile may be necessary, but I don't see how you can possibly say it is exactly what it was before.
Edit: I liked your in depth analysis of reaction time, but saying "1 range 100% cancels out the 0.5 second projectile travel time" is dishonest.
You're right, sorry about that. Although to be fair, i did say 'mitigated'.
It takes an infestor ~0.3 seconds to cross that 1 range, so terran and protoss players get ~0.2 seconds more. 0.2 seconds means that if you get caught while you're in the process of pre-splitting your units, a few more might escape. But really, you should be splitting your units before the battle anyway. Microing against the projectile in-battle (so, actually dodging it, which is what it *seems* blizzard wants) is still impossible, so we have a very similar situation to WoL. It could be fine, but the lack of change is what most people are complaining about.
dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( )
On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote: for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch:
DK just posted this food for thought:
Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance.
We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well.
However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final.
so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward.
so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it
still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though
Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
I made a post on this before...
On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:
On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote: If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front.
If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge.
Have you tried Blinking?
I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink.
The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes.
These are just facts.
Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape.
The problem with your logic is that your acting as if the only situation to consider is when you have a stationary army, an unexpected infestor, and the player with the standing army sees the infestor and then you calculate whether or not he can move his army out of the fungal.
In many real-game situations, with instant cast fungal you still saw people attempting to mitigate fungal by spreading their units as or before infestors approached. Now you have an additional 0.5 seconds to spread your units when compared to WoL, where if you didn't pre-spread, they got insta-fungalled and you were screwed. The reaction time calculations are an interesting thought experiment, and certainly enlightening about some in-game situations, but I don't think your argument ends the debate at all.
So now, we're in the exact same situation as in WoL, 'pre-spread your units'. That extra 0.5 seconds is also mitigated by the extra 1 range. In effect, we have the exact same fungal as before. Can't be dodged, can only be mitigated by pre-splitting. Now, you can argue that this is fine, but you can't argue that this is in any way different from exactly what it was before.
I'm not sure how it is exactly the same. The Terran has more time to split in HotS than in WoL. So fungal has been nerfed (to what degree I'm not sure), and further tweaking of the speed/range of the projectile may be necessary, but I don't see how you can possibly say it is exactly what it was before.
Edit: I liked your in depth analysis of reaction time, but saying "1 range 100% cancels out the 0.5 second projectile travel time" is dishonest.
You're right, sorry about that. Although to be fair, i did say 'mitigated'.
It takes an infestor ~0.3 seconds to cross that 1 range, so terran and protoss players get ~0.2 seconds more. 0.2 seconds means that if you get caught while you're in the process of pre-splitting your units, a few more might escape. But really, you should be splitting your units before the battle anyway. Microing against the projectile in-battle (so, actually dodging it, which is what it *seems* blizzard wants) is still impossible, so we have a very similar situation to WoL. It could be fine, but the lack of change is what most people are complaining about.
I think we are then in agreement. I'd be in favor of settling on 9 range and 10-12 projectile speed, or just some numbers in between the two Blizz has tried so far. The problem is, if you make the projectile slow enough that marines can be given a move command .2 (reaction time) seconds after it has been launched and effectively completely dodge it, I think it would become way too weak. The IT nerfs to infestors were pretty huge by themselves.
On December 19 2012 06:33 StarVe wrote: I'd have liked to see something more like a hydra buff instead of giving fungal 10 range. We'll see. I hope it won't last.
almost everyone (including me) who cares about balance has suggested a straight buff to hydras, but for some reason it's just off the table for blizzard, it seems. all this madness with fungal seems much worse to me, I'd much rather see that ability get relegated to a support role than remain a core piece of zerg play style.
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
That delay works for both the Zerg and the target of the Fungal and thus it doesnt really enable the target to escape the Fungal any better. The only thing that is going to change now is that Zerg will have to adjust their aim slightly, but once that has happened everything is back to square 1 with only a very small chance of missing Fungal and an effect which is still terribly boring to watch and be the target of.
On December 20 2012 03:33 Hyperionnn wrote: Great changes but fungal seems a bit weak, its cast range should be around 20
I think 25 range is more appropriate. A Zerg player in this thread said "a longer range gives it more chances to be dodged", so it's justifiable.
LOL.
THey can make fungal 100 range but then they need to slow down the speed to 0.005, and makes it so if it connects with enemy unit before it reaches its destination then it also trigger the effect.
Now that'll be fun.
That would actually be really worth it ... just fire at the enemys workers who are bound to be massed in a certain space and which your opponent CANT watch all the time and you get an easy victory.
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Interesting, I always figured this was because the connection to blizzard servers was crappy from Australia.
Well, with a 0.4s delay, dodging is literally impossible. So, like I said, same situation as WoL, where you have to pre-split units. Except now if you've already ordered your units to split and get caught in that exact moment, your units have ~0.2 more seconds to follow the move command you already gave them.
For the zerg player... I think, after a while they'll get used to aiming slightly ahead of the moving units. As long as they aim slightly ahead, the other player can't react in time to dodge it, so it depends purely on if they can hit the right spot. Really, this is something that they shouldn't have trouble with after the first few weeks.
On December 20 2012 03:42 DemigodcelpH wrote: I'm laughing at the feeble kind of logic Zerg players tend to come up with to justify terrible changes to the game.
"You can dodge it" (hint: 15 speed is undodgable) "Longer range gives it more chances to be dodged, so the buff is okay" (LOL)
What's sad is that this was DK's actual thought process.
I think it was more along the lines of "I think they might be able to dodge it, but I can't be 100% sure. We need some really good players to mess around with this for a week or two."
Yeah, I think it needs more testing. I actually like the longer range to an extent, because it increases the decision making. Do you cast at the full 10 range where it's easier to dodge, or move your infestors in closer first? The longer the range, the greater the depth of the spell. If it's too powerful, you can nerf the spell in another way.
Obviously there's a limit to how long you can get away with reasonably, though. The part I don't like is being able to fungal stuff that can't see the Infestor or even stuff outside of vision. Maybe 9 is as long as the spell can be.
Hopefully the speed and range can be balanced so that there's a lot of viability in using the fungal at different ranges in different situations, and the players have to make the decision and properly execute. I think, to make the spell as cool as possible, this should be done first and then something like damage output could be adjusted if it is too strong or weak afterwards.
On December 19 2012 06:33 StarVe wrote: I'd have liked to see something more like a hydra buff instead of giving fungal 10 range. We'll see. I hope it won't last.
almost everyone (including me) who cares about balance has suggested a straight buff to hydras, but for some reason it's just off the table for blizzard, it seems. all this madness with fungal seems much worse to me, I'd much rather see that ability get relegated to a support role than remain a core piece of zerg play style.
100% agreed. Previously, I thought they had it in a good place. Still a powerful ability, but dodgable and short range enough that most compositions could deal with them with good micro either by dodging and spreading, or reacting quickly to snipe the Infestor. Turning Fungal from an anti-micro ability into an ability that promoted good micro was very much a good thing. This nerf takes the "react quickly to snipe the Infestor" option off the table since it now outranges nearly all compositions, and it ensures that fungal dodging will be something only certain high speed units can realistically have any chance of doing. And since chain fungalling is still very possible, even one landed fungal ensures your army isn't moving again.
Previous patches had made it more of a support spell rather than the core of Zerg T3 gameplay. if Zerg lategame became too weak as a result, the answer isn't to re-enshrine fungal as the backbone of Zerg T3, but rather to buff other elements--some kind of Hydra buff, for example, could go a long way towards helping Zerg while being much more fun to play with or against than fungal.
I just feel like this is taking 2 steps forward, 1 step back for Zerg design.
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Interesting, I always figured this was because the connection to blizzard servers was crappy from Australia.
Well, with a 0.4s delay, dodging is literally impossible. So, like I said, same situation as WoL, where you have to pre-split units. Except now if you've already ordered your units to split and get caught in that exact moment, your units have ~0.2 more seconds to follow the move command you already gave them.
For the zerg player... I think, after a while they'll get used to aiming slightly ahead of the moving units. As long as they aim slightly ahead, the other player can't react in time to dodge it, so it depends purely on if they can hit the right spot. Really, this is something that they shouldn't have trouble with after the first few weeks.
So if the Zerg aims ahead, what prevents you from changing your movement preemtively as well when you see an infestor so that the projectile will miss, if the Zerg really fires it that blindly?
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Amazing video. Very ilustrative of the issue being discussed. Bravo!
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Interesting, I always figured this was because the connection to blizzard servers was crappy from Australia.
Well, with a 0.4s delay, dodging is literally impossible. So, like I said, same situation as WoL, where you have to pre-split units. Except now if you've already ordered your units to split and get caught in that exact moment, your units have ~0.2 more seconds to follow the move command you already gave them.
For the zerg player... I think, after a while they'll get used to aiming slightly ahead of the moving units. As long as they aim slightly ahead, the other player can't react in time to dodge it, so it depends purely on if they can hit the right spot. Really, this is something that they shouldn't have trouble with after the first few weeks.
So if the Zerg aims ahead, what prevents you from changing your movement preemtively as well when you see an infestor so that the projectile will miss, if the Zerg really fires it that blindly?
at best this is just a random crapshoot rather than an actual test of skill against skill though. one player fires blindly, the other dodges blindly is not good game design.
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Interesting, I always figured this was because the connection to blizzard servers was crappy from Australia.
Well, with a 0.4s delay, dodging is literally impossible. So, like I said, same situation as WoL, where you have to pre-split units. Except now if you've already ordered your units to split and get caught in that exact moment, your units have ~0.2 more seconds to follow the move command you already gave them.
For the zerg player... I think, after a while they'll get used to aiming slightly ahead of the moving units. As long as they aim slightly ahead, the other player can't react in time to dodge it, so it depends purely on if they can hit the right spot. Really, this is something that they shouldn't have trouble with after the first few weeks.
So if the Zerg aims ahead, what prevents you from changing your movement preemtively as well when you see an infestor so that the projectile will miss, if the Zerg really fires it that blindly?
Because now you're just guessing, rather than actually dodging. And if you don't guess the exact moment (0.2s window) when they're firing the projectile, they can easily fire the projectile to follow your new path.
On December 20 2012 03:57 Arakash wrote: dont forget that the Zerg player also has to aim and that starcraft 2 commands aren't as instant as in other games, so I think the pure mathematical approach with 0.5s traveling time is screwed, since there is also a standard 0.4s input delay from battle.net which makes hitting projectile fungal harder. ( http://youtu.be/ByD29uiJYjc )
Interesting, I always figured this was because the connection to blizzard servers was crappy from Australia.
Well, with a 0.4s delay, dodging is literally impossible. So, like I said, same situation as WoL, where you have to pre-split units. Except now if you've already ordered your units to split and get caught in that exact moment, your units have ~0.2 more seconds to follow the move command you already gave them.
For the zerg player... I think, after a while they'll get used to aiming slightly ahead of the moving units. As long as they aim slightly ahead, the other player can't react in time to dodge it, so it depends purely on if they can hit the right spot. Really, this is something that they shouldn't have trouble with after the first few weeks.
So if the Zerg aims ahead, what prevents you from changing your movement preemtively as well when you see an infestor so that the projectile will miss, if the Zerg really fires it that blindly?
at best this is just a random crapshoot rather than an actual test of skill against skill though. one player fires blindly, the other dodges blindly is not good game design.
Which is still way better than a onesided dodge, which only one player can influence.
EPT
