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On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it  still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though 
Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
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On December 20 2012 02:39 Seraphic wrote:
All I got to say is...
Stop BUFFING the Infestors Blizzard. The hell is wrong with you? Can you seriously just take a look at yourself in the mirror for once and ask why most everyone hates the damn unit? You have nerfed Ghost to the ground, HT only works in certain situations and yet Infestors are all over the place in every single match-up.
So why don't you tell us why you are doing this? Doesn't the latest Blizzard Cup show enough that you NEED to kill the Infestors or are you even caring at this point? I have switched to Terran after my frustrations with Toss after playing Toss for so long in BW. This is so maddeningly frustrating to see them toy with Terran and Toss and keep buffing Zerg w/o even a reason for it.
How to make low logic people mad: 1)nerf a unit to the point it is unusable 2)buff said unit so that it's still weaker than before the nerf.
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On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix.
0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
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On December 20 2012 03:08 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 02:39 Seraphic wrote:
All I got to say is...
Stop BUFFING the Infestors Blizzard. The hell is wrong with you? Can you seriously just take a look at yourself in the mirror for once and ask why most everyone hates the damn unit? You have nerfed Ghost to the ground, HT only works in certain situations and yet Infestors are all over the place in every single match-up.
So why don't you tell us why you are doing this? Doesn't the latest Blizzard Cup show enough that you NEED to kill the Infestors or are you even caring at this point? I have switched to Terran after my frustrations with Toss after playing Toss for so long in BW. This is so maddeningly frustrating to see them toy with Terran and Toss and keep buffing Zerg w/o even a reason for it. How to make low logic people mad: 1)nerf a unit to the point it is unusable 2)buff said unit so that it's still weaker than before the nerf.
Infestor is weaker than it was before because of weakened infested terrans, but fungal growth is just as powerful as it was before.
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On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
I made a post on this before...
On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote:
If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front. If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge. Have you tried Blinking? I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink. The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes. These are just facts.
Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape.
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On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking?
Well, there are still a tons of people that won't be satisfied until the Fungal is removed or changed to slow, no matter how good/bad it is.
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I welcomely accept all the changes except the infestor buff
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On December 20 2012 03:17 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking? Well, there are still a tons of people that won't be satisfied until the Fungal is removed or changed to slow, no matter how good/bad it is.
Yeah. Because a lot of people think it's a boring mess of a spell and zerg should not be based around that fucking mess. It maybe balanced but it still is awful.
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On December 20 2012 03:21 Gimmeurladderpoints wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:17 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking? Well, there are still a tons of people that won't be satisfied until the Fungal is removed or changed to slow, no matter how good/bad it is. Yeah. Because a lot of people think it's a boring mess of a spell and zerg should not be based around that fucking mess. It maybe balanced but it still is awful.
Well Blizzard has said that they do not want the infestor to be massable. They also said they don't want to nerf it to the point where it is useless. I feel safe in saying that if this change makes infestors massable again, Blizzard will nerf it again. Welcome to the world of testing, where you try stuff until it works.
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People are still complaining about a slight buff to the infestor after a massive nerf?
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On December 20 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:21 Gimmeurladderpoints wrote:On December 20 2012 03:17 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking? Well, there are still a tons of people that won't be satisfied until the Fungal is removed or changed to slow, no matter how good/bad it is. Yeah. Because a lot of people think it's a boring mess of a spell and zerg should not be based around that fucking mess. It maybe balanced but it still is awful. Well Blizzard has said that they do not want the infestor to be massable. They also said they don't want to nerf it to the point where it is useless. I feel safe in saying that if this change makes infestors massable again, Blizzard will nerf it again. Welcome to the world of testing, where you try stuff until it works.
That still doesnt skips the issue of the spells effect being awful and making it harder to apply doesnt really "fix it", because it only nerfs it until Zerg players learn to use it under the new conditions ... i.e. shoot ahead of a moving group of targets. Fungals effect hasnt been changed and that is the terrible thing.
On December 20 2012 03:30 hunts wrote:
People are still complaining about a slight buff to the infestor after a massive nerf?
Yes, because half of the "nerf" was buffed by more than the nerf so it is now better than it started in that aspect. The other half of the "massive" nerf isnt enough so you can actually do anything about it as the defending player and only the Zerg can fail by not readjusting his aim to the new setting. Where is the "massive" nerf in that?
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On December 20 2012 03:16 Wen_Jie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking? I made a post on this before... Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote:
If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front. If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge. Have you tried Blinking? I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink. The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes. These are just facts. Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape.
The problem with your logic is that your acting as if the only situation to consider is when you have a stationary army, an unexpected infestor, and the player with the standing army sees the infestor and then you calculate whether or not he can move his army out of the fungal.
In many real-game situations, with instant cast fungal you still saw people attempting to mitigate fungal by spreading their units as or before infestors approached. Now you have an additional 0.5 seconds to spread your units when compared to WoL, where if you didn't pre-spread, they got insta-fungalled and you were screwed. The reaction time calculations are an interesting thought experiment, and certainly enlightening about some in-game situations, but I don't think your argument ends the debate at all.
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On December 20 2012 03:30 hunts wrote:
People are still complaining about a slight buff to the infestor after a massive nerf?
Hm? It's actually almost better now.
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Great changes but fungal seems a bit weak, its cast range should be around 20
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On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though
They should have published something like this immediately along with the patch notes. Posting these changes in the current situation without any comment is just terrible, terrible communication.
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On December 20 2012 03:33 Hyperionnn wrote:
Great changes but fungal seems a bit weak, its cast range should be around 20
I think 25 range is more appropriate. A Zerg player in this thread said "a longer range gives it more chances to be dodged", so it's justifiable.
LOL.
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On December 20 2012 03:31 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:16 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 20 2012 03:14 blarkh wrote:On December 20 2012 03:06 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 22:04 Decendos wrote:for the people that are too stubborn to understand that the infestor was completely crap and unusable before this patch: DK just posted this food for thought: Just to clarify, 15 speed for missiles is not fast at all. We're not reverting the fungal nerfs. And the 10 range is nowhere near as good as the instant fungal at 9 range. There's obviously a higher chance to miss with this current fungal if you shoot it from a longer distance. We really liked playing with this version of Fungal Growth internally because the tradeoff between getting in closer for more accurate fungals vs. shooting from a safer distance for less accurate fungals is working out decently well. However, we can only test so much internally is why we'd like to try the change in the beta. This, just like everything else in the HotS beta, is not final. source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416262980?page=3so the thought process is: close fungal = high risk, high reward, far away fungal = low risk, low reward. so basically fungal is still worse than before and IT got 3 huge nerfs. so yes infestor is WAY worse than in WoL so dont cry about it still waiting for the other lairtech units to get buffs to compensate for the huge infestor nerfs though Fungal only takes slightly less than 0.5 real world seconds to hit it's maximum range. Given human reaction time, and that the player reacts instantly when they see the fungal, they can't move anything meaningful out of the range of the fungal in the <0.3 seconds they have to box half their units, move them out of the radius, and then do the same to the other half on the other side. At this point if your fungals are missing, it's because you can't aim rather than the other player is magically dodging. This could be a problem *right now*, but it's nothing a few days of practice won't fix. 0.5 realt world seconds is a lot of time outside of bronze. If boxing your units takes too long, there's something called control groups. and if you can't move everything out of the fungal but only something, that makes fungal that much worse and micro that much better. Everybody complained about Fungal being an anti-micro spell. Now that it's a microable spell, people complain that it's still useful so we will still see Infestors. Oh no Blizzard, what were you thinking? I made a post on this before... On December 19 2012 15:46 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 15:14 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote:
If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front. If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge. Have you tried Blinking? I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink. The projectile moves at speed 15, so it takes 0.67 ingame seconds to cross range 10. That translates to about 0.48 real world seconds. The average human reaction speed is about 0.2-0.3 seconds. Let us assume, for the sake of this example, that the Protoss and Terran ubermensch have a reaction speed of 0.15 seconds (unrealistic, because they also have to box their units and click outside). That gives their units 0.33 seconds, or 0.46 ingame seconds, once ordered, to move their units out of the radius, assuming they know where it is centered. Assuming they have units spread across the radius, the units at the center have to move 2 range to get out of the area of effect. Therefore, only units with a speed of 4.35 or higher can escape the fungal growth from the center (i.e. nothing). This would also mean that for example, marines can only escape if they're a distance of 1 away from the edge. Of course, this is assuming that the units are only on one side of the circle. If there are units on the other side, the player has to make a second box and move those units in the other direction, or else they would have to move up to 4 range to get out of the area. Assuming the action of boxing and moving the second half of units takes them another 0.15 seconds, this gives them 0.18 seconds, or 0.25 ingame seconds to move out. Nothing moves that fast. Effectively, half of your units are screwed no matter what, and half of the rest are also screwed unless they're phoenixes. These are just facts. Also, I think i made a post further down apologising that i forgot to mention that interceptors can in fact escape. The problem with your logic is that your acting as if the only situation to consider is when you have a stationary army, an unexpected infestor, and the player with the standing army sees the infestor and then you calculate whether or not he can move his army out of the fungal. In many real-game situations, with instant cast fungal you still saw people attempting to mitigate fungal by spreading their units as or before infestors approached. Now you have an additional 0.5 seconds to spread your units when compared to WoL, where if you didn't pre-spread, they got insta-fungalled and you were screwed. The reaction time calculations are an interesting thought experiment, and certainly enlightening about some in-game situations, but I don't think your argument ends the debate at all.
So now, we're in the exact same situation as in WoL, 'pre-spread your units'. That extra 0.5 seconds is also mitigated by the extra 1 range. In effect, we have the exact same fungal as before. Can't be dodged, can only be mitigated by pre-splitting. Now, you can argue that this is fine, but you can't argue that this is in any way different from exactly what it was before.
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On December 20 2012 03:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 03:33 Hyperionnn wrote:
Great changes but fungal seems a bit weak, its cast range should be around 20 I think 25 range is more appropriate. A Zerg player in this thread said "a longer range gives it more chances to be dodged", so it's justifiable. LOL.
Laughing at your own bad joke. Thats pretty sad.
I'm glad they're still changing a lot, can't wait to try them out when i get free time.
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EPT
