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On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways. what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this: Increase HP to 600 Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50% For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade. For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost. A deathball egager and in some cases killer. Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard. You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves.
Exactly. Also dark swarm made your ultras and lings invincible. Jesus rofl.
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On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways. what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this: Increase HP to 600 Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50% For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade. For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost. A deathball egager and in some cases killer. Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard. You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves. quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean  Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units.
Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range?
Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar.
They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed.
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Wow I've been playing around with this patch and they made Terran so strong against Protoss! I'm not the best player in the world but I'm a diamond level toss. I've never played Terran before, but this patch made me try it out. Easily beating high masters protoss with just Hellion drops and mass thor. Can't even touch Terrans in my league when I'm on my A game and expecting the incoming drops. It's pretty intense.
I'm kind of excited though, from my perspective this just makes the game more challenging for me than for the Terran players, which only means that I will get better faster before the changes get brought back in line.
Good changes to zerg and toss overall though, and active abilities are fun.
Although as protoss we kind of need more than 10 control groups now. Is there any way to do that?
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On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways. what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this: Increase HP to 600 Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50% For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade. For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost. A deathball egager and in some cases killer. Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard. You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves. quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed.
The fungal with a slow and not a snare would be the cross of protoss slow spell and storm wouldn't it? Terran would feel awfully left out.
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On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways. what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this: Increase HP to 600 Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50% For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade. For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost. A deathball egager and in some cases killer. Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard. You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves. quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed.
Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now.
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On December 12 2012 04:21 Zergrusher wrote:
Each damage and splash follows like this(per upgrade is included)
Damage(+3 per upgrade) Splash(33%)
no upgrade: 35,12
Level 1: 38,13
Level 2: 41,13
Level 3: 44,14
That is not 100% accurate. In Starcraft 2 damage is calculated with floats from the game engine (they cut of after 2 digits though for the end result). There have been threads in the past doing serious testing on this. A very good example of this is the mutalisk. It deals 9+3+1 and each upgrade gives the muta +1+0.33+0.11 damage (first calculated exactly, then cut of after 2 digits). So with +1 air attack the mutalisk does 9(+1)+3(+0.33)+1(+0.11). If you click the unit ingame it only says 10+3+1 because the result is rounded down. But if you go to the unit tester or create a custom game with your best buddy and test it out you'll see that the mutalisk will hit for 10+3+1 damage for the first hit, then 10+3+1 for the second, 10+4(!!!)+1 for the third (every third hit +1 is exactly 3 times 0.33), 10+3+1 4th time, 10+3+1 5th time, 10+4(again here)+1 for the 6th time, 10+3+1 7th time, 10+3+1 8th time, 10+4(again here)+2(yes, 9th time because 9x0.11 is 1 ... it is exactly 1 because the game engine calculates it with 0.11111111111... or something like this but will cut of at 2 digits usually afterwards). If the other unit/structe has any armor it goes as usual and the armor value is taken into account by subtracting this value from the all 3 damage values.
There is a further special rule in Starcraft 2 concerning damage calculation: If a unit would do 0 damage (because of heavy upgrades from the opponent for instance) the unit will still do 0.5dmg on average per hit (meaning again that the unit will start hitting for 0 dmg, then 1dmg, then 0 dmg, 1 dmg .... etc same principle as above). Since this rule has applied for every SC2 unit so far I'd be really surprised if it was any different here. Maybe you might want to check it out and do some tests if you really intend to create a thread for this. Hope this helped.
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On December 12 2012 05:16 derpface wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways. what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this: Increase HP to 600 Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50% For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade. For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost. A deathball egager and in some cases killer. Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard. You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves. quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed. Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now.
Let me show you What the ultralisks damage would look like if under my suggestions.
40 flat damage, 50% splash, +4 per attack upgrade
Non-upgraded: 40,20
Level 1: 44,22
Level 2:48,24
Level 3: 52,26
If you factor in late game armor upgrades( that are usually 3 armor or 4 armor) and or medivac heal rates the damage and splash change Allows the ultralisk To be a powerful late game unit, while still requiring postioning to make the most out of the damage(Remember put ultralisk in Front!)
Also by Making Chitinus plating increase HP by 100 Along with giving the ultralisks +2 armor like it usually does, really allows for the ultralisk to be the Strong deathball assaulter, and allows it to suit its cost and investment.
oh and BTW Blinding cloud is bugged because it makes your own units range decrease to 1 in blinding cloud's cloud.
Think about what that does to ultralisk combined with its Bad pathing problems.
Ultralisk have alot of problems, the 33% splash damage and upgrade scaling VS enemy armor is a major one.
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On December 12 2012 05:19 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 04:21 Zergrusher wrote:
Each damage and splash follows like this(per upgrade is included)
Damage(+3 per upgrade) Splash(33%)
no upgrade: 35,12
Level 1: 38,13
Level 2: 41,13
Level 3: 44,14
That is not 100% accurate. In Starcraft 2 damage is calculated with floats from the game engine (they cut of after 2 digits though for the end result). There have been threads in the past doing serious testing on this. A very good example of this is the mutalisk. It deals 9+3+1 and each upgrade gives the muta +1+0.33+0.11 damage (first calculated exactly, then cut of after 2 digits). So with +1 air attack the mutalisk does 9(+1)+3(+0.33)+1(+0.11). If you click the unit ingame it only says 10+3+1 because the result is rounded down. But if you go to the unit tester or create a custom game with your best buddy and test it out you'll see that the mutalisk will hit for 10+3+1 damage for the first hit, then 10+3+1 for the second, 10+4(!!!)+1 for the third (every third hit +1 is exactly 3 times 0.33), 10+3+1 4th time, 10+3+1 5th time, 10+4(again here)+1 for the 6th time, 10+3+1 7th time, 10+3+1 8th time, 10+4(again here)+2(yes, 9th time because 9x0.11 is 1 ... it is exactly 1 because the game engine calculates it with 0.11111111111... or something like this but will cut of at 2 digits usually afterwards). If the other unit/structe has any armor it goes as usual and the armor value is taken into account by subtracting this value from the all 3 damage values. There is a further special rule in Starcraft 2 concerning damage calculation: If a unit would do 0 damage (because of heavy upgrades from the opponent for instance) the unit will still do 0.5dmg on average per hit (meaning again that the unit will start hitting for 0 dmg, then 1dmg, then 0 dmg, 1 dmg .... etc same principle as above). Since this rule has applied for every SC2 unit so far I'd be really surprised if it was any different here. Maybe you might want to check it out and do some tests if you really intend to create a thread for this. Hope this helped.
I did the tests lol
You should see the WOL's ultralisk splash damages( Base and VS armored)
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On December 12 2012 05:24 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 05:16 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 03:20 Zergrusher wrote:
[quote]
Don't worry it was a gimmic anyways.
what blizzard should do for the ultralisk is this:
Increase HP to 600
Increase damage to 40 and make the splash damage 50%
For scaling Give it +4 attack per melee upgrade.
For those of you who think it would be op, well You'll be surprised to know it won't be, because now the ultralisk Suits its role and its cost.
A deathball egager and in some cases killer.
Remember what ultras did in BW? Exactly, they Charged head on into deathballs and when they Hit something, they hit something hard.
You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves. quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed. Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now. Let me show you What the ultralisks damage would look like if under my suggestions. 40 flat damage, 50% splash, +4 per attack upgrade Non-upgraded: 40,20 Level 1: 44,22 Level 2:48,24 Level 3: 52,26 If you factor in late game armor upgrades( that are usually 3 armor or 4 armor) and or medivac heal rates the damage and splash change Allows the ultralisk To be a powerful late game unit, while still requiring postioning to make the most out of the damage(Remember put ultralisk in Front!) Also by Making Chitinus plating increase HP by 100 Along with giving the ultralisks +2 armor like it usually does, really allows for the ultralisk to be the Strong deathball assaulter, and allows it to suit its cost and investment. oh and BTW Blinding cloud is bugged because it makes your own units range decrease to 1 in blinding cloud's cloud. Think about what that does to ultralisk combined with its Bad pathing problems. Ultralisk have alot of problems, the 33% splash damage and upgrade scaling VS enemy armor is a major one.
How does this make the ultralisk a strong deathball breaker as opposed to an all around OP unit?
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On December 12 2012 05:45 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 05:24 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 05:16 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
[quote]
You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves.
quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed. Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now. Let me show you What the ultralisks damage would look like if under my suggestions. 40 flat damage, 50% splash, +4 per attack upgrade Non-upgraded: 40,20 Level 1: 44,22 Level 2:48,24 Level 3: 52,26 If you factor in late game armor upgrades( that are usually 3 armor or 4 armor) and or medivac heal rates the damage and splash change Allows the ultralisk To be a powerful late game unit, while still requiring postioning to make the most out of the damage(Remember put ultralisk in Front!) Also by Making Chitinus plating increase HP by 100 Along with giving the ultralisks +2 armor like it usually does, really allows for the ultralisk to be the Strong deathball assaulter, and allows it to suit its cost and investment. oh and BTW Blinding cloud is bugged because it makes your own units range decrease to 1 in blinding cloud's cloud. Think about what that does to ultralisk combined with its Bad pathing problems. Ultralisk have alot of problems, the 33% splash damage and upgrade scaling VS enemy armor is a major one. How does this make the ultralisk a strong deathball breaker as opposed to an all around OP unit?
I fail to understand how a list of numbers is proof that ultras are not strong in HOTS, whereas actually playing the game and seeing how strong ultras are (and watching pros like Idra use ultras to great effect) doesn't mean anything to Zergrusher. "But, but, the splash doesn't scale well with upgrades!!" -- It doesn't have to. Ultras are already really strong, they don't need multiple buffs on every front to make them stronger right now.
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On December 12 2012 06:10 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 05:45 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On December 12 2012 05:24 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 05:16 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:
[quote]
quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^
But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed. Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now. Let me show you What the ultralisks damage would look like if under my suggestions. 40 flat damage, 50% splash, +4 per attack upgrade Non-upgraded: 40,20 Level 1: 44,22 Level 2:48,24 Level 3: 52,26 If you factor in late game armor upgrades( that are usually 3 armor or 4 armor) and or medivac heal rates the damage and splash change Allows the ultralisk To be a powerful late game unit, while still requiring postioning to make the most out of the damage(Remember put ultralisk in Front!) Also by Making Chitinus plating increase HP by 100 Along with giving the ultralisks +2 armor like it usually does, really allows for the ultralisk to be the Strong deathball assaulter, and allows it to suit its cost and investment. oh and BTW Blinding cloud is bugged because it makes your own units range decrease to 1 in blinding cloud's cloud. Think about what that does to ultralisk combined with its Bad pathing problems. Ultralisk have alot of problems, the 33% splash damage and upgrade scaling VS enemy armor is a major one. How does this make the ultralisk a strong deathball breaker as opposed to an all around OP unit? I fail to understand how a list of numbers is proof that ultras are not strong in HOTS, whereas actually playing the game and seeing how strong ultras are (and watching pros like Idra use ultras to great effect) doesn't mean anything to Zergrusher. "But, but, the splash doesn't scale well with upgrades!!" -- It doesn't have to. Ultras are already really strong, they don't need multiple buffs on every front to make them stronger right now.
my changes seem strong only because fungul was never addressed. See We all know fungul simply does to much.
its good for AA, its good for AOE, its good against deathballs.
but 2 zerg units are currently underpar, the hydralisk and the ultralisk.
See I have a final solution to the fungul problem and how to make any negative effects of the change non-existant.
if theres 1 person that knows these 2 units(ultralisk and hydralisk) inside and out its me.
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Fungal projectile is great. if youre skilled and practice a lot you will still have this very strong spell, but it's so much harder for it to be effective. Had fun playing with it, definitely
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On December 12 2012 05:45 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 05:24 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 05:16 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 04:23 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 04:15 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:56 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:54 derpface wrote:On December 12 2012 03:48 Zergrusher wrote:On December 12 2012 03:41 Cele wrote:On December 12 2012 03:28 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
[quote]
You are thinking of zerglings. Ultras in bw were support units that soaked damage while dealing much less damage themselves.
quite right. Essentially in lategame pvz/zvt in ultras just tanked the damage in order to let the cracklings connect. Cracklings themselves were the big damage dealers. In zvt you had to add defilers to break the terran "deathball". good positioned tanks+ MMF ball is to my opinion the closest thing to deathball in bw. Though its not a deathball in sc2 sense ^^ But for the sake of how sc2 Deathballs work you know what i mean Deathball clumping means the clumped units have higher damage output per area Also If you understand upgrade scaling in relation to enemy armor you'll understand why 33% splash is very bad for the ultralisk especailly factoring in medivacs You forgot Fungal what do you mean? You can always combine ultras with Fungal, even now when Infestors actually are what they was meant to be, support units. Do you truely think infestors are "fixed" just because fungul is a projectile and has 1 less cast range? Yet they never address the rooting, the 2.0 radius the 2 supply(low supply means they still will be massed) and the fact that Ultras and hydralisk as still subpar. They did handle IT's I'll give them that, but fungul will still be a problem child that was never directly adressed. Thats true. What I meant though was that Ultras can be fat and I am fine with that, but you need to keep in mind that combined with fungal they are really good already. I can agree that they are somewhat clumsy and so on, but they can deal good dmg combined with fungal. We need to wait and see how the patch will work with people playing it and test the new changes to see if Ultras are imba now. Let me show you What the ultralisks damage would look like if under my suggestions. 40 flat damage, 50% splash, +4 per attack upgrade Non-upgraded: 40,20 Level 1: 44,22 Level 2:48,24 Level 3: 52,26 If you factor in late game armor upgrades( that are usually 3 armor or 4 armor) and or medivac heal rates the damage and splash change Allows the ultralisk To be a powerful late game unit, while still requiring postioning to make the most out of the damage(Remember put ultralisk in Front!) Also by Making Chitinus plating increase HP by 100 Along with giving the ultralisks +2 armor like it usually does, really allows for the ultralisk to be the Strong deathball assaulter, and allows it to suit its cost and investment. oh and BTW Blinding cloud is bugged because it makes your own units range decrease to 1 in blinding cloud's cloud. Think about what that does to ultralisk combined with its Bad pathing problems. Ultralisk have alot of problems, the 33% splash damage and upgrade scaling VS enemy armor is a major one. How does this make the ultralisk a strong deathball breaker as opposed to an all around OP unit?
What truely is a "deathball" but a clump of units? What are clumps of units weak against? AOE
What does a Deathball have? due to the "Clumping" ranged units have a very combined DPS and damage output, how do you counter this? By Giving a unit More HP to be able to egage it.
The ultralisk changes i listed are very practical, but they seem "to Stonk" Because Fungul was never addressed properly.
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Blinding Cloud is not bugged nowhere in the tooltip did it say own units are not affected by it. This in intentional. There's plenty of spell that friendly fire so you have to be careful where to use it.
I mean Darkswarm also effected enemy units and protected them from ranged attacks this is nothing new.
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On December 12 2012 06:44 s3rp wrote:
Blinding Cloud is not bugged nowhere in the tooltip did it say own units are not affected by it. This in intentional. There's plenty of spell that friendly fire so you have to be careful where to use it.
Do you know how much friendly fire blinding cloud effects ultralisk and other short range units?
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On December 12 2012 06:46 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 06:44 s3rp wrote:
Blinding Cloud is not bugged nowhere in the tooltip did it say own units are not affected by it. This in intentional. There's plenty of spell that friendly fire so you have to be careful where to use it. Do you know how much friendly fire blinding cloud effects ultralisk and other short range units?
Well too bad i guess because this is what the freaking tooltip says . Every unit that has more than range melee ( ultras have 1 ) is suppossed to be effected i guess. Thats not a bug that working as intended . I mean they still attack and deal very good damage even when effected.
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Wow I have to say, I love what I'm seeing on streams and in my games.. ZvT at least. It's beautiful. Action packed, Z can go Ultra/Viper/Ling, or Viper/Roach/Hydra, or Broodlord/Infestor vs Terran going either Bio/Mech or Air.. This is such a good dynamic.. Every base counts, every gas and mineral patch mined counts..
Blizzard did really good job and step forward with this patch..
Thera arw few things that needs to be figured out and rebalanced, but overall I think we have good future in front of us.
edit: And yeah TvP now that mech has finally potential is also great. But I just don't like to turtle into mass air vs air, which is boring and Toss is very often tempted to do. TvT is great as always.. Hopefully ZvP also got better, is that true?
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Btw anybody who wants ANOTHER Ultralisk buff hasn't see them in action on Beta they're insanely strong now. They do not need another buff unless you want to make them overpowered.
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The one thing is, Blizzard cannot and should not do a very, very, very good Zergunit. Because they all come out of Larvae. For hightechterran units, lets call it raven or BC for example you need a starport + techlab per unit (same goes for some protoss units). For zerg it doesnt matter which unit comes out of the egg, since every unit needs just 1 larve.
The other thing is, the techswitch with the above mentioned makes remaxing fast. So making the ultralisks stronger or having the infestor like it was in the patch before is not really balanceable by how this race is designed.
I just wanted to point that out again, because i think so many people have forgotten about it.
And i think that is also the reason, why the swarmhost is so expensive, so u cannot instantly mass this unit and not because it is so damn great.
Edit: if some special units like the queen does, would come out of some special buildings ( does not have to be the hatch), it would be a different story
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On December 12 2012 07:31 s3rp wrote:
Btw anybody who wants ANOTHER Ultralisk buff hasn't see them in action on Beta they're insanely strong now. They do not need another buff unless you want to make them overpowered.
If thats "insanely strong" then you haven't look at the unit as a whole and how it works because ultras are not "strong" they are just slightly improved.
I'm not saying it wasn't a good move on them giving them flat damage, but upgrade scaling combined with 33% splash causes negative problems for the unit.
Now the hydralisk on the other hand STILL has issues thanks to the WOL Beta nerfs to it.
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EPT
