Presently Vikings are functional, even reasonably strong air superiority fighters. Their transformation into a ground fighter mode is almost entirely unused, however. A Terran player typically builds exactly enough to meet their needs. Using them on the ground is a waste of their anti-air talents, where a couple highly expendable Marines is just as good. Against Colossi, Broodlords, Battlecruisers, etc. a Terran just has to eat their spinach and build them.
I propose to make the Viking an amazing finesse-based unit in Heart of the Swarm, with minimal changes. The idea is to change the unit as little as possible, but turn it into a unit the Terran player could easily want to build to demonstrate their handling and finesse, and to get a lot of use out of the unit if they are skilled. I want to make the Viking appealing as a deliberate choice to switch over to the expensive, fragile, high-tech elite fighter in the late game. Not just as a reaction to threats that only the Viking is effective against.
Problem: Clunkiness & Handling.
Starcraft 2 handles magnificently. Units' responses are immediate and precise to the orders they are given. Except for Vikings.
I propose the following, very subtle changes. Firstly, when given the order to transform, the Viking will immediately transform, without stopping first. When landing, the Viking will not auto-seek a suitable landing location if it is not already over a suitable spot- it will simply not land. Furthermore, units in the way will not stop the Viking from landing. It will land and move them aside; neither the Viking nor the unit moved will be harmed.
And most importantly, Vikings will be permitted to move while lifting and landing. They will be treated by the engine as air units unless they are fully engaged in assault mode. During the entire lifting and landing process they may move as air units. Additionally, make transforming transient. This means you can give a Viking a move order, and if you order it to transform, it will not break its existing move order (unless it makes it impossible to path). A moving Viking will maintain its course while transforming, and will also accept and act upon new orders during the transformation.
In the event that they start landing over legal terrain and move into an area where it is illegal for them to land, such as over empty space, they simply lift again. If Blizzard is feeling ambitious this could even be implemented as a neat micro trick to allow Vikings to hover as ground units, but off in empty space, even allowing them to move around in this state. Which would be awesome, but I have no idea how to implement it.
This is the most complex change, and the most difficult to implement. However I am pretty confident Blizzard could implement this in an afternoon. I have tried, and cannot get it to work quite right in the editor, especially graphically.
Problem: Slow & Clumsy in Assault Mode
This is the biggest set of changes I suggest to the Viking. And constitutes a significant buff in its Assault Mode.
First of all, and most significantly, give the landed Viking moving shot. Let it move freely while shooting, maybe with a lovely retro thruster animation under its "feet" while moving. And boost its landed speed to match its speed while flying. Skimming across the battlefield blazing away with their cannons- they're expensive and squishy, but they're hard to catch!
Add to this, giving the Viking natural cliff jump in Assault Mode, like a Reaper. All this does is allow the player to jump a cliff with a move command rather than needing to give a lift and subsequent land command.
Conclusion
My suggested changes, I hope, turn the Assault Mode Viking into an actual fast raider like it was meant to be, rather than an expensive liability when landed. It allows the Viking to transition smoothly into either mode, and ideally will make it more fun to use in Assault Mode.
The Viking should handle at least as well as the other units in the game. Lifting and landing is an absolutely painful process to watch, and should be the coolest feature of the unit. It should be smooth at the very least. And ideally it would give the player more opportunity to control the unit, not less.
While I do think that the Viking perhaps deserves to have 1 armor instead of zero, in both Fighter and Assault Mode, I think that is a balance consideration and should take a back seat to making the unit fun to use in the first place.
I also think vikings could be... better, more usefull, but most players will say that this kind of movement and automatic cliff jump kills it micro needs. Should be enough to add a "smooth transition" research that cut by 2 or 3 the transition time?
Sounds good but with the lift and land changes you suggested a cliff jump would not be needed. If it can fly forward while lifting and landing you could lift it, move forward up the cliff and before it has fully lifted you can land it again on top of the cliff. Neat micro trick. Having the same speed on the ground as air and with move and shoot is just sickeningly op. Slow with move and shoot or fast without it.
seems like you want the tengu from red alert 3 (DB apparently liked it so he brought it over to sc2). Problem with that unit was it was too good at harassing making it too much of a massable unit.
A slight buff in transformation time would be fine, but I don't like seeing it become the harass unit of choice for terran. I simply don't think it's interesting for that and making vikings if you don't need to win the air fight shouldn't be too good. For example I'd hate to see TvT become a mech into viking fest. With your proposals turrets would be pretty bad against viking harass as you could come in sweeping very fast. Along with moving shot they would simply be ultimate raiders in TvT and along with them being useful for vision/air superiority in the mech war anyway we'd likely be having tengu wars eh.. i mean viking wars in TvT again. Vikings being that good simply invalidate all other sorts of harass which would suck; they stop banshees, they stop drops and if they land easily and have moving shot they even stop hellions.
The viking is pretty much fine as it is, I could see their assault mode getting a very minimal buff like from 12 to 13 or 14 damage but that's it really. They were once considered OP with those stats but that was long ago when maps like scrap station were around where fast viking + medivac drops vs zerg were really strong. I think a small ground buff would be fine now. Another option would be too increase their damage in assault mode but also increase their cooldown a bit so the DPS doesn't improve too much, that way they would stay better later on as armor upgrades wouldn't turn them into such crappy ground units.
I believe it's clumsy by design. They clearly wanted landed vikings to be a strong decision, with strong consequences if it was the wrong one. It nearly always feels like the wrong decision, but then vikings would probably be too OP vs protoss (whom always choose collosus tech for some reason) if they decided to buff them in any way.
As a general of the Terran army I would kill any technician who had "lost" the plans for the Wraith and the Valkyrie. Both the Viking and Banshee are worse in their conceptual design IMO. The Viking doesnt really make sense from a practical standpoint, because transforming takes far too long when you want to escape from Fungal or Storm. The Viking is therefore useless against ground units and that is very very bad. I would have much preferred a small attack against ground while flying, but they "had to" make a new unit for SC2 ...
On October 31 2012 21:20 Rabiator wrote: As a general of the Terran army I would kill any technician who had "lost" the plans for the Wraith and the Valkyrie.
Also the guy that decided to replace Arclite Siege Tanks with the inferior and more expensive Crucio.
On topic: if by moving shot you mean like the Phoenix attack, then no.
A more nimble and faster transformation would be nice though
Only problem I see would be the insane ability for vikings to harass players in the late game. It was rampant in the WoL beta and could only imagine problems. However I would love to see more utility in the transform as opposed to what seems like a last resort in pro games, at least thus far in the metagame. Maybe having it such that transform was permanent but made assault mode viking as awesome as a goliath (without anti air) would be sick.
Vikings definitely NEED a buff in their non-BL and Colossi countering uses. I do think the moving shot is a bit too much though. They just need 1 armor, a bit more more hp, and mech upgrades in ground mode and faster transformation animation.
I think it's totally fine that Vikings are slow and clumsy when landing. This is what prevents it from being an amazingly overpowered harassment unit. Keep in mind that a Viking costs less gas and has and twice the anti-ground DPS of a Mutalisk. (12 DPS and 6 range, versus 5.9 DPS and 3 range) If Vikings could land and take off near-instantly, it would only take a few Vikes to kill your entire mineral line and run away.
IMO, if any maneuverability change is needed, it should be a faster take-off animation with the ability to accelerate while taking off. The ability to fire air-to-air missiles while taking off would also be nice (but may be a bit OP). Right now one of the biggest reasons why no one uses grounded Vikings is that it's really hard to get them off the ground without dying in the process.
I also support allowing Vikings to use either/or mech+ship upgrades, whichever is higher.
While making the lift/land process faster could work, I don't think it is the best improvement. It would be better to let the Viking land on the move, and keep the control smooth during the process. Executed well this lets you expose your Vikings minimally, but if you botch it you can waste the landing attempt and take damage for nothing. You can also do this to lift and run away. You run towards the empty space, and then lift and fly away while transforming. It still can't attack while transforming, but you can control it.
Regarding the moving shot implementation, I don't think it really matters whether it handles like a Brood War moving shot which requires an attack order (or stop, or hold position) and drifts while shooting, or if it just shoots automatically like a Phoenix. The BW version requires more manual control, which I am in favor of, but the function is the same. It doesn't really matter which implementation is used.
I don't know why they don't make ALL the units as functional as possible. Why are there so many rigid rules that limit the scope of most of the units. It's a video game, making the game FUN is important, the most important thing.
Instead of offering all these new units, which I welcome, why not improve the units that currently exist first?
Start with Protoss. Zealots are very weak in TvZ largely due to their lack of range and especially fungal growth. Add an ability to charge that allows the Zealot to break out of fungals making the unit far more robust and it's an easy change to make that would not effect other MU's. The voidray is used very little as well. Redesign it into a more functional unit. Be creative.
Terran Viking is a prime example. Why can't the Viking be more dynamic and useful on the ground? There's no reason besides Blizzards rigidness. A Viking that could land faster, maybe with a small buff to ground damage could have so many more uses instead of just anti-air in the late game.
Everyone knows the tank is almost useless in TvP past the early mid game rendering mech challenging to say the least vs Toss and making Terran very one dimensional in that MU. WHY? Why can't the tank have some sort of upgrade requiring maybe a Fusion core (Or similar) late game upgrade to make it effective vs Protoss? There's NO reason why. And it would not effect the other MU's that much as TvT is a mirror and tanks don't have much use anyway vs late game Zerg compositions, largely air. Plus giving Terrans an incentive to get a fusion core will open up Battle Cruiser play and make it more accessible. (Hell, make the BC more useful as well so it's actually used)
Because of how Zerg production works they are a little different. But there's no doubt there are ways to make the units they have be more useful than some of them currently are. I like the hydra and ultra buffs, and generally think is the most well rounded race, although not necessarily the best. They have options from early, through mid game, to late game where as Protoss seems a bit week in the mid game, and Terran in the late game.
In general, there's no reason not to make as many units as dynamic as possible within the balance constraints. One of my biggest peevs in Blizzards reluctance to fix obvious problems (Ala Terran late game and Protoss Mid game) to make the game more enjoyable. Yes, ensuring the game is competitive is extremely important, but it's still a video game. Make it fun as well.
As it is, viking assault mode is just for getting rid of your vikings after they've killed the colossi.
They're weak, slow, vulnerable, and in assault mode contribute nothing except hellion harass protection in the early game.
They're amazing in the air, but please god make them viable on the ground too. That could actually be the thing mech needs to become viable again.
A better viking assault mode would make mech much better all of a sudden being able to have a mobile fleet of supplemental defense to shore up a spread out tank line.
My only worry is that making them more useful on the ground would, imo, require making them more expensive, and that might make it impossible to get enough to handle collossi, etc.
On October 31 2012 21:20 Rabiator wrote: As a general of the Terran army I would kill any technician who had "lost" the plans for the Wraith and the Valkyrie. Both the Viking and Banshee are worse in their conceptual design IMO. The Viking doesnt really make sense from a practical standpoint, because transforming takes far too long when you want to escape from Fungal or Storm. The Viking is therefore useless against ground units and that is very very bad. I would have much preferred a small attack against ground while flying, but they "had to" make a new unit for SC2 ...
Because the Wraith was used so much in BW. I think the BW unit you're missing is the Goliath.
I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already.
But making the handling a bit better seems like a good idea, at least the transformation part. Buffing the ground strength is unnecessary they are pretty strong already for an air superiority fighter.
Waht I think might be fun is to give the seeker missile to the viking as an armory upgrade or maybe fusion core upgrade. That would make them even more useful in late game. Maybe each viking just gets one missile, similar to how the vultures just had 3 spider mines.
On November 02 2012 00:13 Freeborn wrote: I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already.
^ This here.
As stated many times in many 'buff viking assault mode' threads, the viking is the cheapest flying unit with the ability to attack in the game. It's not the fastest to build, but considering you can make them with reactors, they are an amazing unit. If they had no assault mode at all, they would be bargain.
If you want to buff their ground mode, you must increase their cost.
Since no-one wants effectively nerf the viking to increase it's 'raiding viability' forget it. If they were a proper raiding unit you would need to increase their cost to at least match the Banshee at 150/100 and should require a tech lab, since they would be as useful as a banshee with less vulnerabilities.
On November 02 2012 00:13 Freeborn wrote: I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already.
No they are not actually. viking mech is stomped by protoss air right now because vikings fall far short vs protoss air combinations.
Same situation why infester broodlord is so good vs terran is because vikings suck vs corrupters with 1 or 2 fungals.
Vikings beign good vs air is a myth that has build up because protoss never used to go air in wol. if they did its flagrant weaknesses would show. only really good terran AA is upgraded marines and there is no myth in that.
On November 02 2012 00:13 Freeborn wrote: I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already.
^ This here.
As stated many times in many 'buff viking assault mode' threads, the viking is the cheapest flying unit with the ability to attack in the game. It's not the fastest to build, but considering you can make them with reactors, they are an amazing unit. If they had no assault mode at all, they would be bargain.
If you want to buff their ground mode, you must increase their cost.
Since no-one wants effectively nerf the viking to increase it's 'raiding viability' forget it. If they were a proper raiding unit you would need to increase their cost to at least match the Banshee at 150/100 and should require a tech lab, since they would be as useful as a banshee with less vulnerabilities.
Vikings are not even great at Air-to-Air. They are MEDIOCRE at best against Carriers, tempests, mutalisks, corrupters, phoenixes.
Vikings are also the worst raiding air unit in the game. They have the lowest HP/cost of any ground unit. They have a movement speed of 2.25 on the ground. They FLY slower than a stalker can WALK. They share zero upgrades with Mech.
Vikings have THE #1 worst scaling upgrades in the game. 14+1 to ground damage and (10+1) x 2 or (14+1) x 2 to air damage. There isn't a single worse scaling unit in the game at +7% per upgrade. Marines are +16.667% per upgrade.
I really like these ideas. Maybe post on blizz if u haven't already? if u can make a vid demonstrating even part of ur post, im sure that will help get attention too!
The viking is an excellent anti air unit (actually the best from all three races) and after they have done their job they can land AS A BONUS!
If changes are implemented that make the viking a really cost efficient unit even if there are not air units out (colossus also counts in here in this case), the viking would be way too good. We have seen already how the ghost snipe had to be changed because they just countered everything in tvz lategame no matter what the opponent chose to do and we can see a similar bad thing currently with zerg going for mass (not quite to the same extent because it's not a single unit but actually a unit composition) broodlord+corruptor+infestor in zvp since ultras are pretty bad in their current state in zvp.
There has been a pretty similar thread a while ago and the underlying idea is always the same: "Make the viking on the ground way stronger so terrans can blindly just mass up vikings in the lategame and never worry about getting the right amount of vikings any more."
There are indeed still quite a few units to work on/tweak in the game but the viking is actually one of the well balanced ones and on top of that useful in all three matchups. This can't be said about a lot of other units/abilities.
If you indeed all you are asking for is making the viking more interesting, well then a lot of things that are well balanced now won't work anymore. Because reducing the hp, increasing the cost or decreasing the dps they do to make up for the new cool abilities they could possibly get would make them to weak for their intended purpose (fighting air units + colossi) or require players to actually make good use of these cool and crazy ideas abilities (cliff jumping ... etc) to make them worthwhile and cost efficient, not something people below masters would be accomplish (even questioning most low-midmasters in this regard).
The real question is, should the Viking be a core late game unit like the Thor is?
IMHO, yes, because of the threat of Tempests, burrowing charge Ultralisks, swarm hosts, widow mines and so on. Without a Goliath type unit in the late game, just being on par with P or Z in the late game will be very tough.
On November 02 2012 14:55 link0 wrote:Vikings are not even great at Air-to-Air. They are MEDIOCRE at best against Carriers, tempests, mutalisks, corrupters, phoenixes.
They fight equally in cost vs some other air units (like vs phoenix, but due to their range phoenix lose vs them cause they have to fly over the marines) and outright win vs most. There is not a single air unit the vikings loses to and it has a ground mode as a bonus (always asuming equal upgrades on both sides here). The problem with a ton of vikings in the lategame doesn't come from the stats, it comes from the fact that most players ball them up (it's actually hard to spread them out constantly because they tend to clump up again once you focus fire some air units and you need to control your other units as well at the same time) and fungal growth/storm can deal great dmg vs them if they are balled up nicely. This is why it's hard to engage broodlord/infestor/corruptor armies or protoss air with storm support (hardly seen in wol due to carriers being so bad, but maybe changing in hots with new air possibilities). The viking itself has really good stats for their intended purpose.
On November 02 2012 14:55 link0 wrote: Vikings have THE #1 worst scaling upgrades in the game. 14+1 to ground damage and (10+1) x 2 or (14+1) x 2 to air damage. There isn't a single worse scaling unit in the game at +7% per upgrade. Marines are +16.667% per upgrade.
There is. It's called the stalker. On top of only having 10(+1) and 14(+1) compared to the viking's 12(+1) (ground) and 10(+1)/14(+1) (air) they also don't require to get tripple upgrades like stalkers who need to get shield upgrades.
Of course stalkers share ground upgrades and in any normal game stalkers will be well ugpraded compared to vikings ... but isn't this true for air units of all races? Fact is they do their job way better than phoenix/voids or curruptors as anti air, if zerg hadn't been starting to do well all of a sudden like half a year ago corruptors would have been the right units to buff, they are the worst from all those units because compared to all others they are really only anti air and can't do anything else once they are done doing it (at least until the very lategame when they can turn into broodlords). David Kim stated they were thinking abuot buffing the corruptor but decided against it because zergs have been doing well enough even though corruptors are not that great. The infestor mainly took over the anti air role in the midgame and zergs have learned how to make the right transition into broodlords. Only then they usually even get corruptors (vs normal unit compositions).
imo, apply these changes, nerf viking AA in some way so that it's not just anti-everything in air, and have thor AA be slightly stronger (prob only its non-light AA buffed)
this would allow air heavy terran style to harass better with vikings, though it would mean you have worse AA... a new air unit could fit but that might just be better left off for LotV
I would like to point out that the changes I suggest in the OP really don't affect the actual strength of the Viking all that much. The most significant balance change is increasing its assault mode movement speed from 2.25 to 2.75, which is not actually that big a deal.
Furthermore, I don't understand why people are making arguments of the form that "buffing landed vikings will make vikings too strong." This is fallacious. Their effectiveness while flying is completely unaffected. And I think it's pretty silly to say that such a small change will make Vikings a unit you can blindly make en masse and win fights with.
I am not proposing making Assault Mode vikings have massive stat changes, like more HP or damage. Moving shot and slightly increased movement speed, without affecting the unit's stats, are actually quite soft, subtle changes with regards to its raw combat effectiveness. I guess it can kite melee units, which is a big difference. But at range 5, with low damage and HP for cost, you are going to have a very hard time arguing that the landed viking is "overpowered."
And even if it were to become overpowered, I would simply respond that its numbers can easily be adjusted, even significantly reduced, to accommodate the change. Having smooth, fast vikings which can zip around the battlefield under continuous control, and which can smoothly transition between modes, is objectively superior to the existing implementation from a player-use gameplay perspective. Balance considerations notwithstanding.
I would like to add that Blizzard should deliberately be trying to make units and mechanics which are very weak if you're bad, or if you let the AI do the work for you, but which appear completely broken in the hands of an immensely skilled player. Such as A-moving landed vikings with moving shot, versus the various other possible micro opportunities with the assault mode viking other than a single massive battle. Many units and mechanics for all three races should acquire this kind of effectiveness- it would improve the game. The way to counter another player being extremely skilled with their mechanics is to be equally skilled with your own race's.
I would suggest just making ground mode have +1 range, would make it more useful in a few aspects.
Workers will get shot down more often when fleeing, and they can shoot over marines and over nits in ground combat, so they don't get in the way all the time.
EPT
