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People are probably tired of these threads. I have posted these ideas in responses to other threads since HotS was announced, before the beta was even released, but the patches haven't made any progress, so I decided to fully explain myself in a proper thread.
The Oracle is a misfit unit because everything it was intended to do is actually already done by the phoenix. Now it is trying to find a way to fit into the protoss race but it is struggling.
The Original Oracle: - purely used to harass the enemy base and scout - dedicate army supply away from the deathball The Present Realization: - unit was too one-dimensional - needs to have some sort of synergy with the army
We already know what David Kim and Blizzard want the Oracle to do from his update http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376196 1 - fast harassment unit that constantly threatens the enemy base 2 - excellent scouting ability (revelation?) 3 - has different degrees of success depending on player skill 4 - position dependent spell/harassment/support
Let me talk about the Phoenix 1 fast harassment unit that constantly threatens the enemy mineral lines - easily flies in and out of enemy base and can lift/kill workers 2 excellent scouting ability - it flies around really fast and can regenerate shields 3 has different degrees of success depending on player skill - requires lots of micro 4 position dependent spell/harassment/support - graviton beam - harass and kill workers - can lift crucial units such as tanks, infestors and immortals to support an engagement
Protoss already has a lot of harassment capabilities, regardless of which tech path they choose. Stargate - harass with phoenix Twilight - harass with blink stalkers or DT's Robo - harass with warp prism Admittedly, some of these harassment options may not be as effective as Terran drops or Zerg mutalisks, but there are ways to combine these harassment options together to make them stronger, such as DT warp prisms, storm drops, ramp FFs, mass warp-ins, blink-in recall-out etc... I don't understand why out of all the races, it's protoss that needs another harass unit? How about... fix the nydus worm?
The problem and suggestion: The phoenix gets shut down by turrets, cannons, and spores way too easily and its harassment potential drops to zero. - give the phoenix the ability to disable structures the same way the overseer can contaminate and disable turrets/cannons/spores - more turrets/cannons/spores will still lessen the damage since it will cost energy to disable each one, and less energy means less lifting - it can be easily balanced by tweaking energy required and duration of effect
There are other changes necessary to the voidray and tempest to truly make stargate tech viable. Adding the oracle or changing the phoenix will not fix the entire problem.
edit/ I also want to credit kcdc's thread who made similar complaints regarding the original Oracle. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278175
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Couple of edits -- Dt's need dark shrine, not really fair to just say twilight as the ds takes longest to build. Phoenix can't lift thors
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On October 29 2012 17:43 MostGroce wrote: Couple of edits -- Dt's need dark shrine, not really fair to just say twilight as the ds takes longest to build. Phoenix can't lift thors
I'm keeping DT's there because there are certain builds that rush to DT's for the sole purpose of harassing your opponent. Fixed the phoenix one though.
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They really should remove oracle. Its new role is extremely overlapped with void ray and phoenix and even warp prism if you think about it.
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why couldnt they just remake brood war wtf david kim is a jew thief
User was banned for this post.
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Why not bring back the Arbiter and give the Phoenix statis field with an upgrade from the Fleet Bacon.
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On October 29 2012 18:34 larse wrote: They really should remove oracle. Its new role is extremely overlapped with void ray and phoenix and even warp prism if you think about it.
Really? I can see a basic similarity to the void ray, especially since they use the same sound effect and have similar attack animations, but not being able to attack units and lacking a "charge-up" mechanic are huge differences. I'm hoping that the role of the void ray is changed though, rather than removing the oracle.
As for the phoenix, the only thing in common is that they fly and are fast. Phoenixes can't even attack the one thing oracles can target - structures. And I have no idea why you'd say warp prism and oracles overlap, since oracles can neither transport nor warp in units.
I would say there is far more overlap between BLs and SHs, or between tempests and void rays, than any of your comparisons.
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I disagree that it overlaps with the phoenix, their aim for harassment is completly different, and the potential threat is completly different. baseraider vs worker raider combatsupport vs unitsniping/disabling
I personally like the new approach of the Oracle, feels alot better right now compared to before.
I do feel however that the Voidray in general is amiss, and doesnt do anything except threaten early game PvZ, after that it becomes pretty obsolete imho.
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Doesn't the Oracle support the Voidray and the Phoenix?
1. Time Warp can protect Phoenix and Voidray in a way extra Phoneix and Voidrays cant. 2. Pulsar Beam's primary use would be to target Ground-to-Air turrets. This also protect Voidrays and Phoenixes. 3. Also, it can also supplement Tempests and Carriers, capital ships that are vulnerable to massed-fast-moving Ground-to-Air attackers. Something Voids and Phoenixes can never do.
I don't think it overlaps at all. It supplements.
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On October 29 2012 18:34 larse wrote: They really should remove oracle. Its new role is extremely overlapped with void ray and phoenix and even warp prism if you think about it.
Why should everything that overlaps with something somehow be removed!? So sick of this.
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The current Oracle is great for harassment and excellent for army support. Sentries, Mothership core and the Oracle, if put together can do wonders in the hands of a skilled player. If you open Phoenix vs Zerg and it gets shut down, you are behind, also probably dead. If you open stargate now, even if your Phoenix harass fails, you can rely on a powerful unit for support, with your current tech choice. You cannot imagine how helpful Time Warp will be against mass Infestor/Broodlord. I can't see the Phoenix being a better unit.The only thing Blizz needs to change about Time Warp is that it should affect both enemy and friendly units.
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On October 29 2012 20:00 Kyuki wrote:I do feel however that the Voidray in general is amiss, and doesnt do anything except threaten early game PvZ, after that it becomes pretty obsolete imho.
Maybe proxy stargate Void Ray all-ins will be come popular again. Imagine how well a VR can kite Marines under Time Warp.
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I think TW is a great ability, but ATM I think it is way too overpowered in deathball v deathball situations.
Just completely negates terran stutter micro as well as allowing colossi/storm to do extra damage while reducing damage taken.
As posted above, the best way to do this is to make it so that units in the Warp are un-affected by splash and/or spells, or a heavy reduction in damage done by both regular attacks and spells. This spell really needs a trade-off in battle situations and ATM it has none. With a change like this it would be able to keep its main mechanic(slowing down pushes, delaying mining, holding chokes) which is why I suggested negating AOE/spells, as this would make it so that the TW could still be used with gateway units to hold, but in late-game situations where you are storming/colossi a-rolling over the bio ball, TW wouldnt just be a "cast this so nothing can escape", it would actually negatively effect the outcome of the battle for you as your going to reduce the effectiveness of your AOE(which is vital to PvT) unless you cast it perfectly(hit the reinforcements with TW, the frontline with storm). The problem with this is that Colossi attacks are considered "normal" attacks, perhaps just making their normal attack an autocast ability worth 0 cost(in order for it to be classifiied as a spell).
You cast it, you forcefield, you storm, terran cant micro bio, bio loses. This is just encouraging deathball play by making it more effcient. We are supposed to be breaking up the deathball dammit!
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whoah, I really thought the community has stressed more than enough how bored they are with the current deathball design... And I really thought for a second that Blizz is listening and adjusting balance/mechanics accordingly, but then DK throws shit like THAT at us?! AoE concussive shell that lasts like forever?! Thanks for making Protoss deathballing even EASIER than it already is... They probably should not read any more posts by Destiny lol
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I love how after not even a day everyone already knows all strategies and intricacies again. Yep, clearly Terran can't beat Time Warp. We almost spent half a day theorizing about it!
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I totally disagree.
Phoenixes can't hit buildings, and are negated by virtually any static defense. Oracles are the opposite--they wreck buildings hard, but can't fight back vs units. They're actually pretty distinct.
There is significantly more overlap with Void Rays...except Oracles are straight up better harassers, because they're much faster and their damage is frontloaded rather than charged up.
As for Time Warp, it is NOT a deathball ability in any way. It actually incentivizes the opponent to break up their deathball, and on the Protoss side, Oracles are so fast and fragile that if you hotkey them with your army they fly out ahead and get insta-sniped. You want them on a separate hotkey and controlled separately from your army, and you also don't really want to keep them in combat: TimeWarp lasts a while, and thats the one way they can contribute to an army fight, so once you've cast TW your Oracles are wasted and needlessly at risk in your army, and you'll want to take them out of the fight and probably go back to harassing.
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remove deathball then it'll be useful
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The oracle currently is working very well and is one of the few protoss units that really make sense. The phoenix by itself is a unit that is basically only really good for harrassment and for that has a pretty high skill requirement. Beyond that it's mostly useless. even against mutas stalker usually a better choince because they don't get invalidated by a zerg switch to ground units.
The oracle: -can scout -can keep tabs on enemy army movement for 60 seconds -can support gateway units and psi storm effectiveness with timewarp - AND can contain enemy expansions and snipe tech buildings unless the enemy defends with units or a lot of stationary defense.
Plus it has great synergy with the tempest by marking targets for them. Also small squads of phoenix might actually work well, oracle vs buildings phoenix vs units.
The unit that is now obsolete or rather a bit undefined is the void ray. I think the oracle and tempest do great in redefining protoss air and showing the flaws that make it so rarely used so far.
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The oracle needs to be scaled back in my opinion. currently in pvz you can just build 8 oracle and go snipe hatcheries with minimal micro and instant win The other abilities are really good against locust. Timewarp Storm is extremely strong vs Terran
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I deliberately avoided discussing the actual specific skills of the oracle because 1) they have not been thoroughly tested and 2) it simply doesn't matter for the sake of my argument. I am more concerned about its purpose.
I want to show how the role of the oracle is already adequately filled by the phoenix, regardless of what its actual spells are. Compare the oracle to the warhound. Why is so much time dedicated to forcing the oracle to work when its purpose is already fulfilled? Why did they abandon the warhound so easily when terran desperately needs a new unit to help with mech?
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