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On October 24 2012 10:27 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
Just pointing it out, you're aware that Blizzard is very happy with how FF functions? They aren't going to change it.
For the love of god I hope they change how fungals work. I lost 17 Phoenix in a recent game because I didn't realize he had infestors, flew them in to far, and got fungaled ---> all 17 died.
I wonder if Blizzard has ever considered a delay in between which fungals can be chained (or if it's even a good idea, for that matter). For example, after fungal wears off after 4 seconds, units can't be fungaled for another 2 seconds. Or even, fungal roots for 2 seconds, but deals damage over four seconds (the green goo can still visually display), meaning that if you wanted to root you'd need to use it a meager 2 seconds later, greatly reducing the potency of the root.
Then again, the spell derives the majority of its strength in the root, in my eyes. Maybe reduce the damage. Or even better, make it an 80% slow.
Ensnare was an infinitely better spell, pity the queen sucked and the spell was very hard to use (mostly attributable to BW UI). Slowed units and reduced rate of fire (rate of fire reduction for marines, for example, was a perfect amount to counteract stim. Ensnared marines that were stimmed fired as if they weren't stimmed, as the increase in RoF from stim and decrease in RoF from ensnare perfectly cancelled each other out). And I just realized, your suggestions for fungal IS turning the spell into ensnare, pretty much, which Blizzard will never do. They won't revert to a BW spell.
EDIT: Also don't touch Roaches. They already suck. 100/25 is an AWFUL change. You seem overly biased against Zerg. I know they've said they're happy with how forcefield works, but that doesn't make me any more satisfied. Up until a few months ago, Blizzard also didn't know motherships were standard in PvZ. We might not get the big problems corrected, but we've got a better shot if we let Blizzard know what we think. Giving clear, focused feedback with detailed explanations and quality suggestions is the most effective thing we can do to help improve the game.
Ok, I'll take that as a valid point. To be fair, it could be very well interpreted they didn't know that using an infestor to attempt to neural a mothership was a huge point of controversy in the community, not that motherships were standard. That's how I and many interpreted it. It doesn't detract from the point you seem overly antizerg, and your suggestions really hurt Zerg (ps. as said before, I think fungal fucking sucks, way worse than FF). However changing FF would COMPLETELY fuck with the balance of the game. I mean you have to reevaluate PvT on an entirely new level. Not something you could balance even over a months period.
Also note 100/25 roaches would fuck ZvT vs mech.
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My one reservation is that Vortex is a really cool spectator feature of Starcraft. I would hate for it to be entirely removed. I was thinking of limiting Vortex by making the radius smaller and/or returning the units in a less clumped way.
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Way too many changes to fundamental mechanics that will most likely never happen or be changed.
I applaud your effort, though.
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I was thinking of limiting Vortex by making the radius smaller and/or returning the units in a less clumped way. Terrible suggestion. All that would do is ruin the balance in the Zerg's favour even more so. That doesn't change or improve the late game situation at all.
EDIT: Just make it into a Stasis Field.
Way too many changes to fundamental mechanics that will most likely never happen or be changed. This towards the FF change.
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On October 24 2012 10:37 JayceeSC wrote:Show nested quote +I was thinking of limiting Vortex by making the radius smaller and/or returning the units in a less clumped way. Terrible suggestion. All that would do is ruin the balance in the Zerg's favour even more so. That doesn't change or improve the late game situation at all.
WoL balance considerations shouldn't be given so much weight. People have a problem with Vortex being so crucial to Protoss success. So, the only means of reducing dependency is to reduce its impact and offload that responsibility to the army at large. If Fungal got a nerf and Tempests were viable, the lategame scenario would be a lot more dynamic than it is now.
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Certain types of Protoss offense are nerfed pretty hard by swapping out forcefield for fortify. Colossi, in particular, become weaker against both Terran and Zerg.
And I really don't think 100/25 would fuck ZvT vs mech. Mech isn't that scary until Terran has a large (140+) army with upgrades, at which point Z will be able to max out on roaches whether they cost 75/25 or 100/25. And don't forget that Z gets swarm hosts which I expect will prove powerful against mech since mech won't be fast enough to chase them down. (Sort of like lurkers slowing down a Terran push) Like all the changes, the 100/25 roach cost would need testing, but I really don't think it's unworkable.
As I see it, each race gets something they want:
Zerg never has to see an immortal-sentry all-in again. They get can pressure Protoss in the midgame without getting cut off by forcefields. Archon toilet is out of the game. Zerglings are more efficient against marines.
Terran gets the opportunity to move up a ramp against Protoss in the early game without having their retreat blocked. They also get the ability to micro more against infestors. Marines are a little less vulnerable to splash damage.
Protoss gets to build less sentries which means more other stuff. They get a defensive mechanic that is less dependent on tight chokes which means more flexibility for expansions. They also get to fight against slightly less cost-efficient roaches and some improved late-game options to deal with broodlords.
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I'm just wondering.. with FF removed, how would Protoss defend a 1-Base 3-4 Rax Stim All-in (with possibly pulled SCVs)?
I also can't see Protoss being aggressive at all vs bunkers. These are just two obvious situations (and there's many more).
Makes no sense to remove FF without doing more significant/unrealistic changes.
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I agree with the problems, not all of the solutions.
1. Fortify seems...okay. But all it does is make the sentry a purely defensive unit. You think Protoss has to turtle a lot now? At least with MSC they can see if they can do damage and recall. It's not even worth moving out if you have sentries with this change.
2. I agree that Vortex needs to be removed and balanced around not having it, because it honestly isn't fun to play or watch. But replacing it with stasis and still relying on the mothership won't fix the PvZ matchup at all, even if he's trying to make carriers and void rays better to supplement the nerfed mothership - you still need the stasis to get some Zerg units out of the picture, neural parasite on mothership is still an issue, etc.
3. I don't understand the point of the Void Ray upgrade at all - they're balancing the Tempest upgrade around dealing with massive units.
Increasing marine size doesn't seem so bad to be honest. Wonder how it'd look.
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On October 24 2012 10:46 kcdc wrote:
Certain types of Protoss offense are nerfed pretty hard by swapping out forcefield for fortify. Colossi, in particular, become weaker against both Terran and Zerg.
And I really don't think 100/25 would fuck ZvT vs mech. Mech isn't that scary until Terran has a large (140+) army with upgrades, at which point Z will be able to max out on roaches whether they cost 75/25 or 100/25. And don't forget that Z gets swarm hosts which I expect will prove powerful against mech since mech won't be fast enough to chase them down. (Sort of like lurkers slowing down a Terran push) Like all the changes, the 100/25 roach cost would need testing, but I really don't think it's unworkable.
As I see it, each race gets something they want:
Zerg never has to see an immortal-sentry all-in again. They get can pressure Protoss in the midgame without getting cut off by forcefields. Archon toilet is out of the game. Zerglings are more efficient against marines.
Terran gets the opportunity to move up a ramp against Protoss in the early game without having their retreat blocked. They also get the ability to micro more against infestors. Marines are a little less vulnerable to splash damage.
Protoss gets to build less sentries which means more other stuff. They get a defensive mechanic that is less dependent on tight chokes which means more flexibility for expansions. They also get to fight against slightly less cost-efficient roaches and some improved late-game options to deal with broodlords.
Swarm hosts don't come out in time/large enough numbers to stop timing attacks. They are not in any way the equivalent of BL's, simply due to the much longer cooldown. If you want to stop Hellion/Thor timing attacks, you need mass roach, there is no other alternative, unless you can try to gimmicky ling/infestor surround with Neural. You highly underestimate how much of a sink in minerals roaches are. It would be an overwhelmingly negative effect.
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On October 24 2012 11:09 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:46 kcdc wrote:
Certain types of Protoss offense are nerfed pretty hard by swapping out forcefield for fortify. Colossi, in particular, become weaker against both Terran and Zerg.
And I really don't think 100/25 would fuck ZvT vs mech. Mech isn't that scary until Terran has a large (140+) army with upgrades, at which point Z will be able to max out on roaches whether they cost 75/25 or 100/25. And don't forget that Z gets swarm hosts which I expect will prove powerful against mech since mech won't be fast enough to chase them down. (Sort of like lurkers slowing down a Terran push) Like all the changes, the 100/25 roach cost would need testing, but I really don't think it's unworkable.
As I see it, each race gets something they want:
Zerg never has to see an immortal-sentry all-in again. They get can pressure Protoss in the midgame without getting cut off by forcefields. Archon toilet is out of the game. Zerglings are more efficient against marines.
Terran gets the opportunity to move up a ramp against Protoss in the early game without having their retreat blocked. They also get the ability to micro more against infestors. Marines are a little less vulnerable to splash damage.
Protoss gets to build less sentries which means more other stuff. They get a defensive mechanic that is less dependent on tight chokes which means more flexibility for expansions. They also get to fight against slightly less cost-efficient roaches and some improved late-game options to deal with broodlords. Swarm hosts don't come out in time/large enough numbers to stop timing attacks. They are not in any way the equivalent of BL's, simply due to the much longer cooldown. If you want to stop Hellion/Thor timing attacks, you need mass roach, there is no other alternative, unless you can try to gimmicky ling/infestor surround with Neural. You highly underestimate how much of a sink in minerals roaches are. It would be an overwhelmingly negative effect.
What attack timings are you thinking of? It seems like Zerg can currently max out on roaches in ZvT around 14 minutes. If they cost 25 minerals more, I suspect the max would be delayed by about 30 seconds. Would that be game-breaking? I'm not sure. But it's important to note that roach production in WoL is usually limited not by cost, but by the supply cap.
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My suggestion is:
Force fields -> give it HP so the opponent can target fire it and kill it off at the expense of taking hits from other units. Sort of like the entomb but its a force field.
Fungal Growth -> Make it a medium between plague and ensnare from sc1.
Vortex - seems fine, stasis field wont be a bad option
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On October 24 2012 10:59 JayceeSC wrote:
I'm just wondering.. with FF removed, how would Protoss defend a 1-Base 3-4 Rax Stim All-in (with possibly pulled SCVs)?
I also can't see Protoss being aggressive at all vs bunkers. These are just two obvious situations (and there's many more).
Makes no sense to remove FF without doing more significant/unrealistic changes.
Fortify? Purify? Zealots and stalkers? I can defend a 1-base 3-rax stim all-in without forcefields in WoL. If you give me a mothership core, it will be even easier.
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Lol no, gave me a laugh though
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On October 24 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:09 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 24 2012 10:46 kcdc wrote:
Certain types of Protoss offense are nerfed pretty hard by swapping out forcefield for fortify. Colossi, in particular, become weaker against both Terran and Zerg.
And I really don't think 100/25 would fuck ZvT vs mech. Mech isn't that scary until Terran has a large (140+) army with upgrades, at which point Z will be able to max out on roaches whether they cost 75/25 or 100/25. And don't forget that Z gets swarm hosts which I expect will prove powerful against mech since mech won't be fast enough to chase them down. (Sort of like lurkers slowing down a Terran push) Like all the changes, the 100/25 roach cost would need testing, but I really don't think it's unworkable.
As I see it, each race gets something they want:
Zerg never has to see an immortal-sentry all-in again. They get can pressure Protoss in the midgame without getting cut off by forcefields. Archon toilet is out of the game. Zerglings are more efficient against marines.
Terran gets the opportunity to move up a ramp against Protoss in the early game without having their retreat blocked. They also get the ability to micro more against infestors. Marines are a little less vulnerable to splash damage.
Protoss gets to build less sentries which means more other stuff. They get a defensive mechanic that is less dependent on tight chokes which means more flexibility for expansions. They also get to fight against slightly less cost-efficient roaches and some improved late-game options to deal with broodlords. Swarm hosts don't come out in time/large enough numbers to stop timing attacks. They are not in any way the equivalent of BL's, simply due to the much longer cooldown. If you want to stop Hellion/Thor timing attacks, you need mass roach, there is no other alternative, unless you can try to gimmicky ling/infestor surround with Neural. You highly underestimate how much of a sink in minerals roaches are. It would be an overwhelmingly negative effect. What attack timings are you thinking of? It seems like Zerg can currently max out on roaches in ZvT around 14 minutes. If they cost 25 minerals more, I suspect the max would be delayed by about 30 seconds. Would that be game-breaking? I'm not sure. But it's important to note that roach production in WoL is usually limited not by cost, but by the supply cap.
30 seconds? It must be more than that.
And it's not like you can assume they build all the roaches at once. They are building them constantly, using them to remax, etc.
I'm referring to the 3base timing that is meant to hit before BL.
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Fortify? Purify? Zealots and stalkers? I can defend a 1-base 3-rax stim all-in without forcefields in WoL. If you give me a mothership core, it will be even easier. So let's assume you do a 1 gate expand because you don't know what the T is doing (or they bunker their natural to hide it). You can defend a stim all-in without Sentries???
Maybe Purify can help in HotS (although they could just leave once it is used and then move back in).
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On October 24 2012 11:23 JayceeSC wrote:Show nested quote +Fortify? Purify? Zealots and stalkers? I can defend a 1-base 3-rax stim all-in without forcefields in WoL. If you give me a mothership core, it will be even easier. So let's assume you do a 1 gate expand because you don't know what the T is doing (or they bunker their natural to hide it). You can defend a stim all-in without Sentries??? Maybe Purify can help in HotS (although they could just leave once it is used and then move back in).
No they couldn't, purify lasts for a ridiculously long time, has a huge range, and you can't retreat once you've stimmed. Trying to wait out purify is asking for an additional full warp in being allowed and losing at least 3 units from purify itself, not to mention possibly even more from stalkers.
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On October 24 2012 11:19 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On October 24 2012 11:09 FabledIntegral wrote:On October 24 2012 10:46 kcdc wrote:
Certain types of Protoss offense are nerfed pretty hard by swapping out forcefield for fortify. Colossi, in particular, become weaker against both Terran and Zerg.
And I really don't think 100/25 would fuck ZvT vs mech. Mech isn't that scary until Terran has a large (140+) army with upgrades, at which point Z will be able to max out on roaches whether they cost 75/25 or 100/25. And don't forget that Z gets swarm hosts which I expect will prove powerful against mech since mech won't be fast enough to chase them down. (Sort of like lurkers slowing down a Terran push) Like all the changes, the 100/25 roach cost would need testing, but I really don't think it's unworkable.
As I see it, each race gets something they want:
Zerg never has to see an immortal-sentry all-in again. They get can pressure Protoss in the midgame without getting cut off by forcefields. Archon toilet is out of the game. Zerglings are more efficient against marines.
Terran gets the opportunity to move up a ramp against Protoss in the early game without having their retreat blocked. They also get the ability to micro more against infestors. Marines are a little less vulnerable to splash damage.
Protoss gets to build less sentries which means more other stuff. They get a defensive mechanic that is less dependent on tight chokes which means more flexibility for expansions. They also get to fight against slightly less cost-efficient roaches and some improved late-game options to deal with broodlords. Swarm hosts don't come out in time/large enough numbers to stop timing attacks. They are not in any way the equivalent of BL's, simply due to the much longer cooldown. If you want to stop Hellion/Thor timing attacks, you need mass roach, there is no other alternative, unless you can try to gimmicky ling/infestor surround with Neural. You highly underestimate how much of a sink in minerals roaches are. It would be an overwhelmingly negative effect. What attack timings are you thinking of? It seems like Zerg can currently max out on roaches in ZvT around 14 minutes. If they cost 25 minerals more, I suspect the max would be delayed by about 30 seconds. Would that be game-breaking? I'm not sure. But it's important to note that roach production in WoL is usually limited not by cost, but by the supply cap. 30 seconds? It must be more than that. And it's not like you can assume they build all the roaches at once. They are building them constantly, using them to remax, etc. I'm referring to the 3base timing that is meant to hit before BL.
Let's say Z hits the 200 supply cap with 70 drones, 5 queens, 40 zerglings and 40 roaches. Each roach costs 25 minerals extra, so that max out costs 1000 minerals more than before. With 70 drones on 3 bases, Z's mineral income will be about 2200-2500 per minute. With those numbers, you're looking at 24-27 seconds extra. The game scenario is going to be a little more complicated than that math of course--maybe those early 5 roaches to defend BFH cost a little more which delays your 4th hatchery a little which leads to a greater delay down the road. It's tough to say exactly how it would play out, but I don't think it would necessarily be broken.
You can always tweak the numbers down the road. My key point is that if you remove forcefield, you have to nerf roaches a little. Maybe that means thors need a small nerf too. It's tough to say.
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On October 24 2012 11:23 JayceeSC wrote:
You can defend a stim all-in without Sentries???
I've been doing it since the WoL beta, back when maps were tiny and stim hit much earlier.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887
When Terran aggression was nerfed to the ground, I started getting sentries as a greedy play. You don't need them unless T goes for medivacs.
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On October 24 2012 11:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:23 JayceeSC wrote:
You can defend a stim all-in without Sentries??? I've been doing it since the WoL beta, back when maps were tiny and stim hit much earlier. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887When Terran aggression was nerfed to the ground, I started getting sentries as a greedy play. You don't need them unless T goes for medivacs.
How do you prevent kiting of your zealots without FF?
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EPT
