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Canada13379 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:31 scph wrote:
While there are people complaining about spells being OP, I think most feel that these spells don't really have a place in the way SC2 should have been developed and played. They're unique spells, but they become the all or nothing in most matchups, and makes every match relatively similar. As zerg, if you don't go infestors and have no fungal, you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage that could lose you the game. That's one tech path that defines the whole race in the current meta. In BW, it was much more dynamic than get a lot of defilers and a huge army = auto win. Defilers were just a bonus, and necessary in "specific" matchups, not all. To want to fix something in the game does not automatically mean you think it's broken, OP.
I honestly don't think FF or fungal is broken, but I do feel their "uniqueness" that existed in the earlier stages of SC2 is no longer there. It's become more of a "necessity", when SC2 should be a game of exploration and adaptation to new strategies, tricks, etc. People feel that with these spells, it's much too hard to develop or alter the meta, and that's very apparent because the spells cover too wide a range of roles, but the problem is, you just can't do anything else but get them or you lose.
Yeah I can understand that. They have made the game pretty stale when the entire game is won or lost by how well you use particular spells
While I like FF and fungal standalone I can see how the reliance on them has created a number of problems. It would be cool if I didnt need to hide behind forcefields 
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I wanted to suggest a modification to Forcefield I've been thinking about, make it a channeled attack. The Sentry would enter "forcefield mode" replacing its standard attack with FF, and an energy cost for each second the Sentry has the ability active. When a Sentry attacks it would shoot out a wall of force out to range 9 (attack moves with speed 3 and has a 3s cooldown) that expands as a cone from the Sentry. All enemy units caught in the cone get pushed back out to a range of 9. Also, while a unit is being pushed back, it cannot attack, only attempt to move out of the FF cone. Once they are free of the FF cone they can obviously begin attacking, but most units would have been pushed outside of their range and have to back track, however they would also be pushed out of the range of enemy units (except the Colossus).
A big risk then becomes having your Charglots running after the moving enemies and be rendered far and away from the support of your Deathball. Also, you would now need to spread and position your Sentries, since you can't just put a FF where you want it. However, it would help against things like BLs by pushing away Broodlings, same with Locusts, allowing you to advance. The Massive unit buff would apply with Massive units being able to ignore the push back effect, you could even have it that units following behind a Massive unit can use it for "protection" from the push back and continue moving forward, introducing positioning importance for the opposing player. Anyway, that's my idea.
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On November 08 2012 08:30 Shikada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are. You miss the point entirely. It's not that bad players have a problem with it, or that it's not balanced, the problem is that from a design perspective those spells make the game stale and boring. They deny micro, which is immensely stupid for a game like SC.
I don't think these spells are boring at all either, I find them both interesting in their own ways whether using them, fighting them or watching them. Also I disagree that they "deny micro" in the way you say they do. It is literally no different than being forced to split my units up before trying to break a Siege Tank line, you can't "micro" out of being hit by an instant-damage Siege Tank shot so why are does everyone start crying when it's a spell that does the damage? I've literally never had any real issue with fighting Infestors in the lategame with any race, Zerg, Terran, Protoss, whatever. There are plenty of weaknesses that Infestors have which you can exploit and I've played Zerg a lot I know these weaknesses quite well.
Also I find the whole "denying micro" argument equally hilarious, not only because you're obviously supposed to actually scout ahead and make plans *before* all your shit gets fucked up from blindly charging up a ramp or whatever, but because BW, a game considered by many to be one of the best RTS of all times had plenty of these "deny micro" abilities, did you suddenly forget about Maelstrom, Ensnare, Lockdown and Stasis? Puuuuhleeeease, I still think there is nothing wrong with these abilities at all and people just want Blizzard to compensate for their lack of skill in dealing with them.
Furthermore, I do agree that in WoL a unit like the Infestor is waaaaaay too necessary and important, I just got bored of using them so I would try out new ways of using them such as never using Fungal but just massing Infested Terrans instead, so I'm really glad that HotS is giving alternatives for some of these units. I have been stomping a lot of face in HotS without ever making Infestors since Hydra/SH can be used to fill some of the roles the Infestor fills, at the end of the day I think Infestor only *seems* so strong because you're most likely going to be facing it every single game you play against Zerg and any time you lose to a Zerg you can just go "Oh welp, I guess Infestor is OP!" when in reality it's just that Infestor fills the role as being the strongest core unit Zerg has....in WoL at least, like I said, Zerg doesn't *have* to rely on the Infestor quite so heavily in HotS if they don't want to.
So yeah, anyone who says FF or Fungal "deny micro" or "they're boring" or "doesnt belong in an RTS" or whatever, sorry I just can't take you seriously at all.
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I agree on:
- Mothership is lame as single hero unit, so is Vortex.
Remove it and replace it with Stasis Field, so no archon toilet is possible
- Fungal Growth is bad. Make it slow instead of snare
- Blizzard will never remove the Forcefield. Protoss is build and balanced around this spell. To me it's not perfect, but also not completly bad. Could live with it
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On November 08 2012 11:37 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:30 Shikada wrote:On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are. You miss the point entirely. It's not that bad players have a problem with it, or that it's not balanced, the problem is that from a design perspective those spells make the game stale and boring. They deny micro, which is immensely stupid for a game like SC. I don't think these spells are boring at all either, I find them both interesting in their own ways whether using them, fighting them or watching them. Also I disagree that they "deny micro" in the way you say they do. It is literally no different than being forced to split my units up before trying to break a Siege Tank line, you can't "micro" out of being hit by an instant-damage Siege Tank shot so why are does everyone start crying when it's a spell that does the damage? I've literally never had any real issue with fighting Infestors in the lategame with any race, Zerg, Terran, Protoss, whatever. There are plenty of weaknesses that Infestors have which you can exploit and I've played Zerg a lot I know these weaknesses quite well. Also I find the whole "denying micro" argument equally hilarious, not only because you're obviously supposed to actually scout ahead and make plans *before* all your shit gets fucked up from blindly charging up a ramp or whatever, but because BW, a game considered by many to be one of the best RTS of all times had plenty of these "deny micro" abilities, did you suddenly forget about Maelstrom, Ensnare, Lockdown and Stasis? Puuuuhleeeease, I still think there is nothing wrong with these abilities at all and people just want Blizzard to compensate for their lack of skill in dealing with them. Furthermore, I do agree that in WoL a unit like the Infestor is waaaaaay too necessary and important, I just got bored of using them so I would try out new ways of using them such as never using Fungal but just massing Infested Terrans instead, so I'm really glad that HotS is giving alternatives for some of these units. I have been stomping a lot of face in HotS without ever making Infestors since Hydra/SH can be used to fill some of the roles the Infestor fills, at the end of the day I think Infestor only *seems* so strong because you're most likely going to be facing it every single game you play against Zerg and any time you lose to a Zerg you can just go "Oh welp, I guess Infestor is OP!" when in reality it's just that Infestor fills the role as being the strongest core unit Zerg has....in WoL at least, like I said, Zerg doesn't *have* to rely on the Infestor quite so heavily in HotS if they don't want to. So yeah, anyone who says FF or Fungal "deny micro" or "they're boring" or "doesnt belong in an RTS" or whatever, sorry I just can't take you seriously at all.
OK, I see where you're coming from, you have your own opinion about this issue and don't consider any other opinion serious. That's not really good for discussion. Also your opinion is the minority. Right now if someone still finds FF or fungal interesting or skill based I only conclude they haven't used/watched enough to make them realized that it's not really that skillful and makes the match ups stale.
Also, while I appreciate your comparisons to BW, I don't think they're entirely valid. Yes, BW had these abilities that denied micro, but not on the scale fungal alone brings to SC2. Scout ahead and presplit all you want, 3 infestors are gonna fungal your entire army, and what when you are against 30? I don't find it interesting that in any late game engagement against zerg you can't move your army. I just don't see the appeal.
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On November 08 2012 11:49 gulden wrote:
- Blizzard will never remove the Forcefield.
Counterproductive argumentation .... if you fight you might lose, if you dont fight you have already lost.
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On October 24 2012 10:59 JayceeSC wrote:
I'm just wondering.. with FF removed, how would Protoss defend a 1-Base 3-4 Rax Stim All-in (with possibly pulled SCVs)?
I also can't see Protoss being aggressive at all vs bunkers. These are just two obvious situations (and there's many more).
Makes no sense to remove FF without doing more significant/unrealistic changes.
I am Terran player and I agree with this. I really think Forcefields belongs in starcraft.
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On November 08 2012 23:14 Kvassten wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:59 JayceeSC wrote:
I'm just wondering.. with FF removed, how would Protoss defend a 1-Base 3-4 Rax Stim All-in (with possibly pulled SCVs)?
I also can't see Protoss being aggressive at all vs bunkers. These are just two obvious situations (and there's many more).
Makes no sense to remove FF without doing more significant/unrealistic changes. I am Terran player and I agree with this. I really think Forcefields belongs in starcraft.
dont forget that protoss gets purify + autoattack on MsC so their defense will be a lot stronger than in WoL.
also if FF is removed the sentry will get another supportspell.
btw you mention FF on bunker. i think thats one of the most stupid things that FF can do. that and warp prism sentry drops were 1 FF at ramp = gg. to the bunker FF mechanics: so terran prepares accordingly and pulls scvs before the attack happens and still FF push the scvs away although terran did everything perfectly. thats bad design.
of course there might be some tweaking like make purify better etc. but if blizzard wants to, its possible to remove FF (they already did a nice step in that direction with the MsC).
another idea would be to let the MsC be attached to the nexus again and blink from nexus to nexus and just give the MsC the FF ability. that way there would only be 4 FF available which combined with purify would be enough to stop allins AND the FF couldnt be used offensively (flying MsC with FF at ramp would be broken). then give sentry another supportspell.
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As I was reading OP's post I knew that he would propose a slow on fungals...
I think that your new sentry spell proposal would be exploited to the world's end lol
Imagine pylon walloffs... then invulns e___e
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On November 08 2012 23:14 Kvassten wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:59 JayceeSC wrote:
I'm just wondering.. with FF removed, how would Protoss defend a 1-Base 3-4 Rax Stim All-in (with possibly pulled SCVs)?
I also can't see Protoss being aggressive at all vs bunkers. These are just two obvious situations (and there's many more).
Makes no sense to remove FF without doing more significant/unrealistic changes. I am Terran player and I agree with this. I really think Forcefields belongs in starcraft.
Any spell which "shapes the battlefield" is a terrible thing, because there is no way to counter it in the game. Sure Ultralisks, Thors (roflmao), Colossi and Archons can remove them, but those units arent "early game units" which is when Forcefield is used most. In mid and late game there are hardly any Sentries left, because the gas is needed for more important units, so the Forcefield is a terrible idea.
Why then is the spell in the game? For defense? You might argue that, but then you could also build a bunch of Photon Cannons to defend your ramp and create a partial wall-off. So "base defense" actually isnt a good enough reason to keep it in the game.
The only "valid" reason for Forcefield is defending your units while they are marching across the battlefield to attack. But where is the problem? The problem lies in the high number of deaths of Protoss units against much smaller opposing units in a tight formation. This equates to a higher "dps per area" for Marines and Roaches and lings against the somewhat bigger Stalkers for example who then die easily. So the reason for the weakness of Protoss units is NOT the units themselves, but rather the ability to stack them tightly and move and fight with them with maximized dps per area. Soooo ... if Blizzard finally fixes the "too dense infantry clumps" and forces loose formation instead of super tight Forcefield will become less necessary since it should take opponents longer to bring a "1-shot-clump" close to the Protoss units.
So Forcefield does NOT belong in Starcraft and isnt really necessary if you fix the right issue.
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Forcefields should have HP and high armor(so lings/marines/zealots can chop through easily) like 400 hp 3 armor or something like that.
That would solve some issues I personally dislike that massive units can crush it, it even does not stuck well with own sentry+archon builds.
Problem could arise in lategame since lings would now have upgrades and the armies will be pretty large - so that it would die pretty fast.. needs to be tested though.
Fungal is the worst spell of the game due to the immobilization. It should be more like reduce movement to 0 and slowly regain it over 5(?) seconds. Could still block blink, but would be much more bearable.
Vortex - bad spell, with the emp/feedback/neural only counters eigher wins the game or loses it.
Should be replaced with something else like air shield or something that would make the target ground area(pretty big) immune to air attacks(like dark swarm but only vs air units). Since collosus is a high unit it would also prevent colossus damage in that area.
Effective vs Broodlords/Mutalisks/Banshee/BC/Colossi/VoidRay...
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On November 09 2012 03:00 LastWish wrote:
Forcefields should have HP and high armor(so lings/marines/zealots can chop through easily) like 400 hp 3 armor or something like that.
For the duration of the spell thats ridiculous. You can just leave them as "impervious to damage", because this will just give the Protoss a decoy target if they get a crapton of hit points as you suggest.
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On November 09 2012 03:45 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:00 LastWish wrote:
Forcefields should have HP and high armor(so lings/marines/zealots can chop through easily) like 400 hp 3 armor or something like that. For the duration of the spell thats ridiculous. You can just leave them as "impervious to damage", because this will just give the Protoss a decoy target if they get a crapton of hit points as you suggest.
But the forcefield could be considered a neutral unit, like neutral buildings/rock-blockades so unless targeted they will still be ignored, just like now.
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On November 09 2012 04:10 LastWish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:45 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 03:00 LastWish wrote:
Forcefields should have HP and high armor(so lings/marines/zealots can chop through easily) like 400 hp 3 armor or something like that. For the duration of the spell thats ridiculous. You can just leave them as "impervious to damage", because this will just give the Protoss a decoy target if they get a crapton of hit points as you suggest. But the forcefield could be considered a neutral unit, like neutral buildings/rock-blockades so unless targeted they will still be ignored, just like now.
Still doesn't change anything because 400HP +3 armour is pretty much the same as impervious to damage during times when it matters-early and mid game. It doesn't matter how much you rework forcefield, it's still going to be a bad spell because it creates terrain that's previously nonexistent. Ever wondered why it is so hard to balance maps?
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In my opinion someone should make map with this proposed changes. Like Blizzard's Antiga Shipyard test map. Then we could test your proposed change and discuss about cosmetic changes or anything in this topic.
My opinion about your proposed changes:
Solutions:
Protoss
Forcefield removed.
- Good change, FF is bad designed, FF broke balance and destroy any micro skill of Protoss'es enemies.
New sentry spell 'Fortify' added. Fortify surrounds a target friendly building with a field of energy, making the building invulnerable to damage for 30 seconds and discharging a blast of energy that damages enemy targets every 5 seconds for the duration of the effect. The energy blasts deal 10 damage in a small radius of effect at 7 range. Can be cast on any friendly building including buildings that have not yet completed. Costs 50 energy.
- In my opinion this is unbalanced. 30 seconds of invulnerable is too much. It will destroy any drop to Protoss base, because skilled player will stay 1 caster in main, and cast this on Nexus or any building, then wait 30 second for main army and destroy dropped units.
Low-ground pylons no longer provide power to high-ground areas. High-ground warp-ins thus removed.
- Good change. It will stop stupid proxy polons under main. Of course pylon will give area of energy for lower ground.
Vortex removed. Replaced with new spell 'Stasis Field.' Stasis Field targets an area of effect, preventing all units in that area from acting for 15 seconds, but also making those units invulnerable to damage for the duration.
- I think, Vortex is bad designed, good change.
Carrier build time reduced from 120 seconds to 90 seconds.
- When Blizzard wanted to remove carriers from HotS, fans discuss about proposed changes of carrier, they propose to change costs of carrier, because carrier are too expensive. In BW carrier'w build time is 140 seconds.
Range upgrade for void ray added to fleet beacon. Increases void ray range from 6 to 8. Costs 150/150. 60 second research time.
- Change to test. I have no idea.
Zerg
Fungal growth changed from complete root to 40% movement speed slow and 30% attack speed slow. Damage unchanged. Still prevents blink.
- Good change, of course fungal will block any moving spell like Ultralisk's charge, Zealot's charge and Stalker's Blink.
Roach cost increased to 100/25 from 75/25.
- In my opinion it's too much. Max 90/25. In my opinion best should be 80/25 or 85/25 but this change needs better calculations.
Terran
Marine model size increased 30%.
- I need to see this change in test map like Blizzard's Antiga Shipyard.
Stimmed marine attack speed reduced 5%. Unstimmed marined DPS unchanged.
- As above.
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Solutions:
Protoss
Forcefield
Forcefield removed.
- I completely disagree, forcefields are abit too powerful, but removing them will not fix the problem. I would suggest that it should researched and swapped with hallucination.
Fortify
New sentry spell 'Fortify' added. Fortify surrounds a target friendly building with a field of energy, making the building invulnerable to damage for 30 seconds and discharging a blast of energy that damages enemy targets every 5 seconds for the duration of the effect. The energy blasts deal 10 damage in a small radius of effect at 7 range. Can be cast on any friendly building including buildings that have not yet completed. Costs 50 energy.
- A very poor suggestion, this will definately make walling in and making late game air army insanely powerful, especially if the 8 range void ray change goes through. Say this was implemented, then a protoss could go only air and make sentries to protect completely walled-in areas, 20 (maybe even 15?) sentries would make 4 expos completely invulnerable to attacks from ground.
Pylon
Low-ground pylons no longer provide power to high-ground areas. High-ground warp-ins thus removed.
- I find this a wierd suggestion, to warp in on high-ground you will still need vision... And this practicly only happens between the 4-8 minute mark, by then protoss usually have the ability to build a Warp Prism...
Vortex
Vortex removed. Replaced with new spell 'Stasis Field.' Stasis Field targets an area of effect, preventing all units in that area from acting for 15 seconds, but also making those units invulnerable to damage for the duration.
"Vortex is a spell cast by the Protoss Mothership. All units with 2.5 of the targeted area are sucked into the Vortex, incapacitating them and making them invulnerable to attacks and abilities for the 20 second duration of the spell. Units within the Vortex are essentially removed from the field of battle, and can not be used or targeted until they are released from the Vortex. Units released from the Vortex are then immune to damage for 1.5 seconds. The spell can also be used defensively by tying up enemy units until the Protoss player can retreat or bring in appropriate supporting troops." (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Vortex)
- This is almost how Vortex is currently working, only difference is 5 seconds.
Carrier
Carrier build time reduced from 120 seconds to 90 seconds.
- A good suggestion, another solution would be either: a) Cost b) Speed.
Void Ray
Range upgrade for void ray added to fleet beacon. Increases void ray range from 6 to 8. Costs 150/150. 60 second research time.
- No, just no... Zerg AA wouldn't be able to stop a Void Ray... That change in my opinion would ruin the PvZ matchup completely:
Spore Crawler (range 7)
Queen (range 7)
Hydralisk (range 6)
Corrupter (range 6)
Zerg
Fungal
Fungal growth changed from complete root to 40% movement speed slow and 30% attack speed slow. Damage unchanged. Still prevents blink.
- This would make Fungal Growth into an offensive ability instead of a defensive ability, I actually doubt it would change much.
Roach
Roach cost increased to 100/25 from 75/25.
- Depending on whether or not forcefields get nerfed/removed I see no reason to change the cost as it is now.
Terran
Marine
Marine model size increased 30%.
- I think this suggestion would reduce the marine damage output too much. No idea yet though, has to be tested.
Stim
Stimmed marine attack speed reduced 5%. Unstimmed marined DPS unchanged.
- If their size increase, this will not be a good change... otherwise in the state as it is now it would be favourable.
Just my 2 cents 
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Fortify shouldn't be useable on a Nexus...Otherwise Toss just leaves one sentry at all bases and can save them with Fortify + Zealot or other warp ins...
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In simple terms, the point he makes that we can all agree on is that those three abilities make the game boring because they remove the ability to micro. I've sure seen a huge fungal land on my army, and then just tabbed back to my base because the engagement will go the way it goes, with no more input allowed on my end.
And seeing zero point to send repairing units when I see a sentry attack on my bunker, again, I just forget about the bunker and try to salvage it before it dies.
Just get rid of skills that prevent micro.
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"Just get rid of skills that prevent micro."
Hear hear. Its a sad truth though, that blizzard has continually proven reluctant to change these spells in any drastic fashion. Mere tweaks are the best we can hope for. I will list what I think are the best changes we can realistically expect to these spells:
Force field: HP bar added. Now you can micro no matter how many force fields are out.
Fungal: slow instead of root.
Vortex: radius, duration and energy cost lowered. Less of a one shot spell, and more of a tactical, positional, multi use spell.
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Russian Federation51 Posts
#Forcefield removed# - hahahahhahahahahhahha
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EPT
