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On November 06 2012 20:23 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 09:07 GARcher wrote:On November 06 2012 09:06 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2012 09:03 Godwrath wrote:On November 06 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2012 07:15 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:On November 06 2012 06:50 larse wrote:
Infestor's problem is both fungal growth and infested terran. If you only see fungal as a problem but not infested terran then you should watch more games to learn that infestor is broken on both spells. Yeah. Imagine if auto turrets could be cast at 9 range and only cost 25 energy. Mech plus Ravens would be boss. I think that increasing the energy cost and decreasing the range at which they can be thrown would probably be a quick and easy fix to Infested Terran. If Infested Terran were still too powerful, making the infestor unburrow before the spell could be cast would most likely be the last step needed, in my opinion. imagine if infesters could fly and Its lasted 3 minutes ITs are not too powerful they are literally only useful in ZvZ and rarely in TvZ and there used to be some timing attacks that used them in PvZ but those were popular for like 3 weeks then faded as quickly as it came Imagine if ravens could cloak ! imagine if infesters had 3 useful abilities They already do. Fungal, Infested Terrans and Burrow. You forgot Neural Parasite which has saved MANY Zerg from being vortexed or annihilated by tons of Colossi/Thors. It isnt as easy or risk-free as Fungal or Infested Terrans, but it is still awesome sometimes.
NP totally blows as an ability with the exception of using NP on a mothership as you said, or in situations where there's only a very select few amount of units.
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On November 06 2012 23:26 LeodaR wrote:
FF - give each FF health based on current Shield upgrades from Forge. That way FF can grow in HP as the game continues in tech and doesn't suffer late game diminishing returns. Numerical HP would require extensive testing but my knee jerk reaction would be 50/100/150/200 (0/1/2/3). My concern is hurting Protoss early expands at a time when greedy builds seem to dominate. Still, this shouldn't be a cure-all. Going greedy is risky. 2 bases can be reasonable safe, but a fast third should be hard to defend.
Not only weakens FF to make more interesting, but also creates a reason to prioritize Shield upgrades on occasion depending on unit composition
*thumbs up*
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make it so fungle doesnt hit air, ff can be destroyed, like 500 hp ? and remove vortex and make mothership have some dps
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Interest ideas indeed. However, I think I will disagree with your solutions. I totally agree that FF, Fungal, Vortex is an OP spell. Esp FF and Vortex where it's FF/Vortex FTW or FTL depending on that click LOL.
I feel that those spells contribute to the game being dull now but it is def not the sole cause. I think easy to defend natural and third maps are what's causing toss to go FE and Z to go fast third thus pushing towards NR20. Toss without FF will prob just turtle even more cause of the threat of even easier surrounds.
I think the game will change too much if the game changes as you proposed; thus making your solutions almost impossible to be implemented. WOL-wise, toss will have a hard time to defend/move out without FF. Toss will probably have no chance against BL-infestor without vortex (given vortex is almost the one solution everyone is using against BL-infestor ball)
I think you need to realize that SC is a three race game where one change can affect all kinds of match up. For example, nerfing roach to help toss survive w/o FF. Roach is already weak against T mech, nerfing it further will just allow T to steam roll Z with mech. Your other solutions involves buffing gateway units, however, by buffing, this will potentially make warp gate OP, then warp gate/warp prism will need to be looked at. Not to mention Z relies on infestor fungal help help deal with mass units such as mass muta/phoneix or air units in general. aside from Ultra, i think that's their only AOE and Z's AA is simply a joke.
I think by removing/replacing spells is more like a bandaid solution. I think what we actually need is another op unit to give the players options. Much like someone once mention that all LOL champs are OP, therefore nothing is OP. LOL...
But overall, great ideas though.
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On November 07 2012 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 20:23 Rabiator wrote:On November 06 2012 09:07 GARcher wrote:On November 06 2012 09:06 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2012 09:03 Godwrath wrote:On November 06 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2012 07:15 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:On November 06 2012 06:50 larse wrote:
Infestor's problem is both fungal growth and infested terran. If you only see fungal as a problem but not infested terran then you should watch more games to learn that infestor is broken on both spells. Yeah. Imagine if auto turrets could be cast at 9 range and only cost 25 energy. Mech plus Ravens would be boss. I think that increasing the energy cost and decreasing the range at which they can be thrown would probably be a quick and easy fix to Infested Terran. If Infested Terran were still too powerful, making the infestor unburrow before the spell could be cast would most likely be the last step needed, in my opinion. imagine if infesters could fly and Its lasted 3 minutes ITs are not too powerful they are literally only useful in ZvZ and rarely in TvZ and there used to be some timing attacks that used them in PvZ but those were popular for like 3 weeks then faded as quickly as it came Imagine if ravens could cloak ! imagine if infesters had 3 useful abilities They already do. Fungal, Infested Terrans and Burrow. You forgot Neural Parasite which has saved MANY Zerg from being vortexed or annihilated by tons of Colossi/Thors. It isnt as easy or risk-free as Fungal or Infested Terrans, but it is still awesome sometimes. NP totally blows as an ability with the exception of using NP on a mothership as you said, or in situations where there's only a very select few amount of units.
So it is limited in its use, but when you use it it is still awesome. That is NOT a bad ability ... its just limited in its application and seems terrible compared to the dirt cheap and super effective Infested Terrans and the totally overpowered "lock you in place and you cant do anything about it" Fungal Growth.
On November 06 2012 23:26 LeodaR wrote:
Infested Terran - Does not benefit from 1/1 upgrades. 2/2 upgrades provides IT with 1/1, 3/3 provides 2/2. Energy cost increased from 25 to 35. Double the energy cost feels a little heavy handed, as does eliminating upgrades completely. A slight nerf to DPS from upgrades, and a slight nerf to supply through energy would probably be more effective than a big nerf to one or the other.
The auto turret of the Raven costs 50 energy and even though it lasts for a MUCH longer duration that is actually useless since it is immobile and can be easily killed if there are no supporting forces from your own side AND it cant be stacked as tightly as the Infested Terrans! So IMO the efficiency of the auto turret isnt twice as big as that of the Infested Terran PLUS the Raven costs more gas and is higher tier to begin with and thus should have more powerful spells anyways.
You can have maby 3-4 Infested Terrans in the same space as an auto-turret and this makes them MUCH more powerful. "Clumped unit dps" is one of the mathematical problems of SC2 and the reason why "one big army vs one big army" battles are the thing we get to watch almost every game. [I refrained from using the word "deathball" since too many people focus too much on the word "ball" and ignore the more important tight formation part of it.]
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On November 06 2012 23:26 LeodaR wrote:
Infested Terran - Does not benefit from 1/1 upgrades. 2/2 upgrades provides IT with 1/1, 3/3 provides 2/2. Energy cost increased from 25 to 35. Double the energy cost feels a little heavy handed, as does eliminating upgrades completely. A slight nerf to DPS from upgrades, and a slight nerf to supply through energy would probably be more effective than a big nerf to one or the other.
The auto turret of the Raven costs 50 energy and even though it lasts for a MUCH longer duration that is actually useless since it is immobile and can be easily killed if there are no supporting forces from your own side AND it cant be stacked as tightly as the Infested Terrans! So IMO the efficiency of the auto turret isnt twice as big as that of the Infested Terran PLUS the Raven costs more gas and is higher tier to begin with and thus should have more powerful spells anyways.
You can have maby 3-4 Infested Terrans in the same space as an auto-turret and this makes them MUCH more powerful. "Clumped unit dps" is one of the mathematical problems of SC2 and the reason why "one big army vs one big army" battles are the thing we get to watch almost every game. [I refrained from using the word "deathball" since too many people focus too much on the word "ball" and ignore the more important tight formation part of it.]
I don't disagree with this, but I'm confused as to why you quoted a portion of my post as part of the response. I don't think you response regarding Auto Turrets has a lot to do with what I wrote, but perhaps I'm missing something?
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On November 07 2012 06:50 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
make it so fungle doesnt hit air, ff can be destroyed, like 500 hp ? and remove vortex and make mothership have some dps
Fungal being able to hit air isn't the problem though. The problem is that it can root units in place without them being able to escape in any way.. And then be chained indefinitely (there is really no way to micro around it and apply skill to do that). Its like a Psi Storm where Terran can't move their bio units at all to dodge it.. Just imagine the QQ that would arise from that..
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And your solution to getaway units being kited is?
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On November 07 2012 21:55 LeodaR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 23:26 LeodaR wrote:
Infested Terran - Does not benefit from 1/1 upgrades. 2/2 upgrades provides IT with 1/1, 3/3 provides 2/2. Energy cost increased from 25 to 35. Double the energy cost feels a little heavy handed, as does eliminating upgrades completely. A slight nerf to DPS from upgrades, and a slight nerf to supply through energy would probably be more effective than a big nerf to one or the other. Show nested quote +The auto turret of the Raven costs 50 energy and even though it lasts for a MUCH longer duration that is actually useless since it is immobile and can be easily killed if there are no supporting forces from your own side AND it cant be stacked as tightly as the Infested Terrans! So IMO the efficiency of the auto turret isnt twice as big as that of the Infested Terran PLUS the Raven costs more gas and is higher tier to begin with and thus should have more powerful spells anyways.
You can have maby 3-4 Infested Terrans in the same space as an auto-turret and this makes them MUCH more powerful. "Clumped unit dps" is one of the mathematical problems of SC2 and the reason why "one big army vs one big army" battles are the thing we get to watch almost every game. [I refrained from using the word "deathball" since too many people focus too much on the word "ball" and ignore the more important tight formation part of it.] I don't disagree with this, but I'm confused as to why you quoted a portion of my post as part of the response. I don't think you response regarding Auto Turrets has a lot to do with what I wrote, but perhaps I'm missing something?
I quoted your post because you said that doubling the cost for Infested Terran feels a bit too much. I tend to disagree with that assessment due to the "dps density" of the placed units. The far superior duration of the auto turret doesnt matter in comparison IMO; one "fix" to the Raven might be to reduce the duration AND the energy of the turret by 50%.
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If changed fungal growth should also hinder other movement-related abilities like burrow and charge.
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The only matchup where I see forcefield as a problem is PvZ and I can't even imagine what the matchup will be without it, protoss would just die to ling/roach.The fortify thing seem waaay too fancy and boring and it alsoo removes the bilions of sentry timings of which I only see the immortal all in being a problem. Maybe give it much smaller forcefields which act like a pdd but way weaker(idk this alsoo seem too much) or make it uncastable on units(like buildings).
The statis thing is a great idea but probably should be 75 energy(it doesn't mater when u have 200 energy but anyway).
Fungal doesn't need to slow atack speed that can make it even beter then it is now in some situations make it a 60-75 % slow and I think you should be able to blink micro form it it's not like you can run away when ur army is 60-75% slower.
Also I love the marine size thing
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God what the hell is wrong with you people? Remove FF? Are you kidding? That's probably the coolest spell in the game and has defined Protoss armies to date. It's unique, skill based, and crucial to success with a wide range of effectiveness based on how well it's executed.
These threads are so funny because somehow every race is imba. Toss imba vs T/Z because of FF, Zerg imba because of fungal, Terran imba because of emp/marines. So what's the problem? Has anybody noticed that whether these spells seem imba or not depends a great deal on who is employing them?
I feel like we have constructed a large number of scenarios under which a player doesn't deserve to win and complaining about it. If you don't realize as a Zerg player that you're under attack until the toss army is at you third with a bunch of full energy sentries, you deserve to lose. If you walk onto creep with marines on one hotkey without scanning ahead and get fungaled, you deserve to lose. If you keep all of your HT on one hotkey and have zero map awareness and get your army blanket empd, you deserve to lose.
In BW tvp, if a Protoss gateway army 1a2a3a into your Terran mech, you needed to
1) drop mines the perfect distance from your tank lines
2) snipe any mines too close to your tanks from previous mine laying.
3) arrange your tanks into a perfect concave.
4) focus fire dragoons with tanks
There were more things to do if you could, but if you didn't do AT LEAST these things Protoss didn't jus beat you, your whole army basically blows itself up with splash. If you could do this though your army murdered toss, mega stomp down style. That's what made this matchup so cool, each race balancing on a knifes edge and pros taking every advantage to catch each other out of position. That's why it was cool. And that's why I have no sympathy for people QQing about having to go through the seemingly impossible task of knowing where your opponents army is and maybe spreading out your units when you're not payin attention to them... Try playing BW mech. BW was awesome because each race was OP in its own ways, and execution is what set players apart.
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I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are.
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On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are.
You miss the point entirely. It's not that bad players have a problem with it, or that it's not balanced, the problem is that from a design perspective those spells make the game stale and boring. They deny micro, which is immensely stupid for a game like SC.
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On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are.
Fungal and IT is fine together with the end game zerg deathball? Or do you usually win/lose a game under 10mins?
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On November 08 2012 08:30 Shikada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are. You miss the point entirely. It's not that bad players have a problem with it, or that it's not balanced, the problem is that from a design perspective those spells make the game stale and boring. They deny micro, which is immensely stupid for a game like SC.
Don't buy it. The micro happens before you get fungal'd. Does this cause situations at low levels where people don't have top notch map awareness wherein one player is unfairly disadvantaged? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's broken. IMO if the game is designed in such a way that you can still defend if you don't realize you're being attacked until it's actually happening, that's broken. Again refer to my whole BW TvP mech list of things that had to be done to defeat a 1a Toss. It's the same thing, if you don't have map awareness and good micro, it's a cakewalk for Toss, but if you do then it suddenly swings into T favor unless Toss can get really creative with catching terran out of position and using shuttle drops etc. If you allow one player to literally not look at their units until the fight starts and still have a chance, that's dumb, and coming from a BW background the thought that you simply can't spread your units is laughable.
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Yes, you can micro before pre-battle to reduce the effect of fungal. Game design that rewards pre-battle micro is good. But you can still reward pre-battle micro with a re-configured fungal growth that doesn't block mult-tasking, hit-and-run tactics, and in-battle micro. The game would be better if unit control skill were rewarded in more situations.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:12 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 08:30 Shikada wrote:On November 08 2012 08:06 rembrant wrote:
I feel like a minority here but these constant threads amuse me because I think ff and fungal are absolutely fine how they are, I deny that there exists a problem at all. If you play poorly against these abilities you deserve to lose. Vortex is a bit different since that one spell often entirely dictated who wins a match, leading to more of a flawed pvz endgame than just a bad spell. Honestly I'm quite curious what league all these people who 'still' are having unreasonable difficulty with fungal and ff are. You miss the point entirely. It's not that bad players have a problem with it, or that it's not balanced, the problem is that from a design perspective those spells make the game stale and boring. They deny micro, which is immensely stupid for a game like SC. Don't buy it. The micro happens before you get fungal'd. Does this cause situations at low levels where people don't have top notch map awareness wherein one player is unfairly disadvantaged? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's broken. IMO if the game is designed in such a way that you can still defend if you don't realize you're being attacked until it's actually happening, that's broken. Again refer to my whole BW TvP mech list of things that had to be done to defeat a 1a Toss. It's the same thing, if you don't have map awareness and good micro, it's a cakewalk for Toss, but if you do then it suddenly swings into T favor unless Toss can get really creative with catching terran out of position and using shuttle drops etc. If you allow one player to literally not look at their units until the fight starts and still have a chance, that's dumb, and coming from a BW background the thought that you simply can't spread your units is laughable.
The problem is in the fact that you can make infestors and win. There is never a bad time to make an infestor. This is the problem I have with fungal growth is it shuts down micro, movement AND on top of it you can spawn Attacking units that shoot the units that can't move. The terrans start in high armor eggs that can't be easily killed so many of them are guaranteed to do damage.
Even if you pre spread if you miss forcefields alongside the issue of the the fungal and the infested terrans and the free army from broodlords you have a terribly difficult time winning.
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I think this is White-Ra's problem with the Infestor. He believes IT should be removed from the Infestor.
(This is, if I can recall an interview he gave a couple of months ago - this was before IT use was as prevalent as it is now.)
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While there are people complaining about spells being OP, I think most feel that these spells don't really have a place in the way SC2 should have been developed and played. They're unique spells, but they become the all or nothing in most matchups, and makes every match relatively similar. As zerg, if you don't go infestors and have no fungal, you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage that could lose you the game. That's one tech path that defines the whole race in the current meta. In BW, it was much more dynamic than get a lot of defilers and a huge army = auto win. Defilers were just a bonus, and necessary in "specific" matchups, not all. To want to fix something in the game does not automatically mean you think it's broken, OP.
I honestly don't think FF or fungal is broken, but I do feel their "uniqueness" that existed in the earlier stages of SC2 is no longer there. It's become more of a "necessity", when SC2 should be a game of exploration and adaptation to new strategies, tricks, etc. People feel that with these spells, it's much too hard to develop or alter the meta, and that's very apparent because the spells cover too wide a range of roles, but the problem is, you just can't do anything else but get them or you lose.
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EPT
