Without clumping: - We will never see such epic baneling attacks on marines/zerglings/workers. It's always very exciting in a pro match when the zerg manages to get that one baneling in the middle of all those small units, killing them all instantly. - Zergling surrounds will become a nightmare to execute. The balance for early-game zerg would have to be adjusted. - All maps would have to be adjusted to have wider ramps, since this change would make it harder to melee units to assault terran bases.
The best way to fix the deathballs at this point is to buff anti-deathball AOE units.
On October 24 2012 05:05 anon734912 wrote: Without clumping: - We will never see such epic baneling attacks on marines/zerglings/workers. It's always very exciting in a pro match when the zerg manages to get that one baneling in the middle of all those small units, killing them all instantly. - Zergling surrounds will become a nightmare to execute. The balance for early-game zerg would have to be adjusted. - All maps would have to be adjusted to have wider ramps, since this change would make it harder to melee units to assault terran bases.
The best way to fix the deathballs at this point is to buff anti-deathball AOE units.
I won't jump to that conclusion. If you take at look at Starbow, all that stuff still happens. It depends on the unit movement implementation.
I have difficulty believing Blizzard and especially Dustin Browder will ever actually listen to the community. Sure, they'll respond to overwhelming opinions in beta and PTR forums on their own website. They'll even make small changes to bunkers once a month when the community is screaming for blood because of the palpably and plainly evident superiority of bunkers. It only took them the better part of two years to fix a single structure.
So I expect this issue to be resolved around 3 years after LotV is released. By a private ladder. I have no faith that Blizzard would make such a drastic change on their own or with only moderate requests from the community. I, hands down, would rather play the game shown in the OP than the game I have installed.
On October 24 2012 05:44 Probe1 wrote: I have difficulty believing Blizzard and especially Dustin Browder will ever actually listen to the community. Sure, they'll respond to overwhelming opinions in beta and PTR forums on their own website. They'll even make small changes to bunkers once a month when the community is screaming for blood because of the palpably and plainly evident superiority of bunkers. It only took them the better part of two years to fix a single structure.
So I expect this issue to be resolved around 3 years after LotV is released. By a private ladder. I have no faith that Blizzard would make such a drastic change on their own or with only moderate requests from the community. I, hands down, would rather play the game shown in the OP than the game I have installed.
I feel the same too, fixing SC2 is easy, even some dude can add a fix to everything in one day. but it seems blizzard doesn't want to.
I can almost respect that they want to move beyond and further than Brood War. It's a noble direction and a smart idea. Unfortunately they need to revisit this idea!
people make a bunch of noise about how broodwar's crappy AI meant you had to struggle to control your units and get them where they need to be when they need to be there. now the AI is so good that you have to struggle to spread them out during fights. it's like the reverse problem. i've seen many games where the player who was better at controlling smaller groups of units came out better in large battles - hardly just "A-moving". maybe players dont think it's worth their time to practice this when they could be practicing something else, but until players master this across the board no one has APM to burn.
- We will never see such epic baneling attacks on marines/zerglings/workers. It's always very exciting in a pro match when the zerg manages to get that one baneling in the middle of all those small units, killing them all instantly.
Really? I thought we had LESS of this compared to Brood War. Spider mines were awesome and almost universally loved
Great topic i hope somebody post this on Hots Blizzard forum... Dustin B is answering some stupid qestionsfrom some noob ppl... haha i hope hi would see this Topic if somebody post it on Forums.. !!!...
Pathing is so broken in SC2 from player perspective to E sport spectator point of lucking the game... WC3 SC BW look at that games...
any other RTS dont have this BALL pathing clumping its not Spectator friendly !!!!! need to change it in hots Fast !!!!
agree with them. It is a game, something should actually be done by players. And clumping is easier then unclumping. So the other way round the game would just be easier and they would have to waste time balancing the game around something that will be no issue anymore once people aren't lazy anymore. They should have actually not listened to the qqing about AoEs being to big and we would actually see way more spreading right now. Alot of changes Blizzard did just kept people lazy and made deathballs stronger that way, no reason to blame them as those changes were community driven. Banelings remained unchanged Fungal even buffed and people can do a hell lot of spreading against those. If every situation had those units we wouldn't see anything clumped unless noobs would be playing.
On October 24 2012 06:21 FeyFey wrote: agree with them. It is a game, something should actually be done by players. And clumping is easier then unclumping. So the other way round the game would just be easier and they would have to waste time balancing the game around something that will be no issue anymore once people aren't lazy anymore. They should have actually not listened to the qqing about AoEs being to big and we would actually see way more spreading right now. Alot of changes Blizzard did just kept people lazy and made deathballs stronger that way, no reason to blame them as those changes were community driven. Banelings remained unchanged Fungal even buffed and people can do a hell lot of spreading against those. If every situation had those units we wouldn't see anything clumped unless noobs would be playing.
Have you seen the Starbow video?
It's a not a very drastic change but it looks better from a spectator's point of view. You still have to split like a madman to minimize splash. The mod increases the splash damage for everything and you take tons of splash if you are too "lazy" to split.
It Spectating. Clumping looks like utter crap. People reference crap such as Marine Splitting against Banlings, but really who makes Banlings these days against Terran? All Zergs just rush for Infestors.
On October 24 2012 05:44 Probe1 wrote: I have difficulty believing Blizzard and especially Dustin Browder will ever actually listen to the community.
Absurd statement. While he's not perfect, Browder is absolutely listening to the community, interfacing with high level players, etc. Look at the removal of the warhound, changes to MsC, etc.
Everyone on TL thinks they are a game designer with legitimate and applicable balance/design expertise. It's laughable.
You carefully split your units, positioning them perfectly in a spread out arc. Now you move them. What happens? They ball back up again, regardless of what you do to stop it. Ideally, there would be a flexible mechanic that allows units to stay spread out as you move them.
That sounds a lot like the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes , you say? Yup! In broodwar, you could spread out your units and keep them in that formation through the use of the magic box, allowing skilled players to keep their formations as they move. It also allowed players to cast storms and other spells in a certain formation all at once.
The Magic Box exists in SC2, but it is very small and I dont think Ive ever seen it used on ground units in SC2. I could be wrong though.
2) Deathball is optimal because of its high damage density.
If you don't have a way to spread out your units and keep them spread out with minimal baby sitting (like a good magic box), then AoE has to be weakened because that will be the default way to play (and thus balance the game).
If you make it easier to spread units out, and also let them be able to clump up tightly, you can increase AoE damage slightly because the response to lots of AoE becomes spreading out your units to minimize the damage, which creates a player decision and also increases skill for better players.
3) Bad movement pathing/unclumping units dumbs down the game, we don't want stupid broodwar dragoons!
It does not dumb down the game or affect the unit movement adversely. It's not like broodwar where in some cases, microing a unit along a path was more optimal than letting it find its own route, even on mostly open ground! No we absolutely dont want duur-goons.
Players will still be able to get their units up ramps in SC2. What they wont be able to do is move their entire 200/200 deathball up a ramp effortlessly as if its been slathered in lube like they can now.
This also has the benefit of increasing the value of area control units like the tank and also of the terrain itself: ramps, high ground, chokes, etc.
By making larger armies more difficult to control, you increase the value of area control units. A 200/200 army should not be just as easy to control as a 100 food army. This is the reasoning behind some fanatics' desire for the 12 unit selection cap: it is the right idea but the wrong implementation. Speed, unit movement AI and size of army can all be tweaked to make larger forces more difficult to deploy
Final thoughts: Units need to move in a way that is not stupid but also not too clumped up and effortless.
Blizzard should give players a direct way to influence the "clumpyness" of our units (without relying on automated formations which takes skill away). A proper magic box allows players to separate units while keeping the option to clump them up tightly.
The relationship between AoE and the concentration of an army should be a valid trade off that the player manages.
In terms of movement, units need to not move so perfectly that it is easy to traverse terrain, but not so difficult that I have to spend 2 minutes trying to micro a dragoon up a small ramp. This will allow area control units to shine which will increase the defenders advantage.
Lastly, I'm not sure if the actual space (collision size) around each unit needs to be increased. That should depend on testing. I think mostly this stuff can be solved with movement modifications.
The real problem with clumpyness is that it neutralises much of the defender's advantage. in BW, when an army was moving towards a base, it would be in a line so it was inefficient.
THIS is the main problem with this game, THIS is the main cause of the deathball. Forget Colossus, forget forcefields (no they really don't help, but TvZ has this deathball problem, just to a lesser extent).
Browder simply put, is an incompetent clown. He has destroyed C&C and he's going to do the same with Starcraft. Best proof that this idiot has never questionned his decisions... Gold minerals. Why in 2012, 2 years after the release of the game, do we still have gold minerals in the ladder maps? Now I'd understand for a 4-5-6 mineral patches base, but a 8 gold minerals..? Really? has he not realized that in some matchups, mainly pvz, its impossible for one of the player to punish the other player's fast expanding after he's done a certain build ( Forge Fast Expand, for example).
How can this man be taken seriously? I remember his face when everyone were screaming "WE WANT LAN", he was all like " but i don't want lan...." It's not what that mentality that this game is going to be alive in a few years. Legacy of the Void will fit its name well. Battle.Net will literally be the Void.
Most people here seems to not understand that Brood War do not force units to push each other out of the way.
As of now, SC2's units move in to a certain location and form a huge blob around it. And in the process of moving the units to a specific location, the units will curve their path to find the optimal length of arriving to the destination.
In BW, instead your army move at the same formation that you have originally set them up unless that there are some obstacles in way to collides with them. But that doesn't mean that the units will spread out voluntarily in any other way. You can totally clump out your units at the start of the movement, they'll remain clump throughout the game.
So what's is the advantage of this type of games? Well in StarCraft 2, the battles don't last long while BW, sometime last up to one full minute of back and forth pushing. That's because one player will have one formation while the opposition have set up their own. With the units all spread out, it gives the players more time to locate their army to counter the shape of the opponent's thus allowing more room to micro.
But however at the same time, there are very much specific occasion where clumping your units is more optimal than having them spread out. Like vs Mutalisks flocks, you don't want your units to roll out in a tango lines but more or less having one deathball of Bio Units as they will get picked off one by one. And in the case vs Zergling surrounds or Zealot ones, having them clumped out will optimize your dmg output and to not let those pesky units to penetrate your bio wall.
In the case of Sc2, player's micromanagement style is pretty much restricted by this clumping engine. And that's what Day[9] means in his analogy of Baseball (forced movement) vs Frisbee (dynamic movements).
That being said, this whole design features can be observed with just a tiny VODs samples from each game of let's say 10 video/game. The fact that DB is overlooking those points proves to us that he obviously has never carefully examine BW and why it reached such a grand stage but just plain ignorant.
On October 24 2012 07:50 Xiphos wrote: Most people here seems to not understand that Brood War do not force units to push each other out of the way.
As of now, SC2's units move in to a certain location and form a huge blob around it. And in the process of moving the units to a specific location, the units will curve their path to find the optimal length of arriving to the destination.
In BW, instead your army move at the same formation that you have originally set them up unless that there are some obstacles in way to collides with them. But that doesn't mean that the units will spread out voluntarily in any other way. You can totally clump out your units at the start of the movement, they'll remain clump throughout the game.
So what's is the advantage of this type of games? Well in StarCraft 2, the battles don't last long while BW, sometime last up to one full minute of back and forth pushing. That's because one player will have one formation while the opposition have set up their own. With the units all spread out, it gives the players more time to locate their army to counter the shape of the opponent's thus allowing more room to micro.
But however at the same time, there are very much specific occasion where clumping your units is more optimal than having them spread out. Like vs Mutalisks flocks, you don't want your units to roll out in a tango lines but more or less having one deathball of Bio Units as they will get picked off one by one. And in the case vs Zergling surrounds or Zealot ones, having them clumped out will optimize your dmg output and to not let those pesky units to penetrate your bio wall.
In the case of Sc2, player's micromanagement style is pretty much restricted by this clumping engine. And that's what Day[9] means in his analogy of Baseball (forced movement) vs Frisbee (dynamic movements).
That being said, this whole design features can be observed with just a tiny VODs samples from each game of let's say 10 video/game. The fact that DB is overlooking those points proves to us that he obviously has never carefully examine BW and why it reached such a grand stage but just plain ignorant.
A very true and well written post. I liked when units weren't pushed out of the way by other units. In fact the only time that this fascinated me was when the Archon could be pushed during morph. I think they can leave that part in. But otherwise I agree with what you wrote.
EPT
