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No fix to clumpy unit movement

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SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 14:51:42
October 23 2012 16:37 GMT
#1
Edit: Relevant BNet thread. Browder has responded several times to that thread so post your convincing arguments there if you want the devs to read them.

We tested this internally a week or two ago when we first saw this video (thanks to the author of the video).

It didn't actually change anything. We tried some really extreme values as well to really push it. Since you tend to cluster your units at rally points they tend to move as blobs. Units in this code cluster when the reach their destination the blobbing still occured. Because as a player you rarely make an attack-move action across the entire map, you usually make lots of small atack-moves from place to place the units all blobbed up immediately as you moved around.

We spent several days just trying different versions of this and we never could get something that made a real difference in a live game.

I am of the opinion that pro players can and should spread out their units more by hand. The benefits are enormous. Fortunately we are starting to see this in some games and I expect this trend to continue.


-Dustin Browder

+ Show Spoiler [More DB posts] +

Which problem are we trying to solve here?

A) Pros can't split their units so esports looks bad.
B) Ladder players can't split their units and it should be easier to split your units.

If "A" then I would say the problem is solved. They should split their units. Pros who do so will win games, Pros who do not will lose games. Should we make the game easier for Pros? The impression I have gotten from the community and the Pros themselves on this subject is a resounding "No."

If "B" then I'm not sure we want to solve this? If it's a game of skill, then you need to learn to split your units. In Broodwar you had to learn to move your units. With a limited unit selection it was difficult to move a large army. Now it is easy to move your army, but harder to use them correctly in a big fight.

Sounds like a better experience for a newer user to me? It's certainly what I would want as a player. If I'm going to be challenged I don't want it to be "how can I get my units into the fight." I would rather it be "my units got to the fight, how do I optimize their positions."


-Dustin Browder

You can easily test this yourself using the editor. I don't think you will find it makes much of a difference. We had multiple groups of people play and we could not tell that anything had actually happened. We were not trying to manipulate the units in any unusual way, we just played normally.

Since clumping is beneficial in many situations I don't think this will change the way the game is played unless you are about to fight Banelings, Fungal, Psi Storm, etc. Only then should you split. In that case I don't think we want splitting to be automated. We want avoiding splash to be a skill thing. Right?


-Dustin Browder

We have already decided it's not useful, that's why we didn't put it in a patch. I'm not going to waste time, energy and resources testing something that doesn't do anything positive for the game. A change like this will require extensive testing and take a lot of effort to make sure it didn't break anything in campaign or anywhere else in the game.

If you don't agree, that is totally cool. Go test it now. You have an editor. I'm not stopping you. =)


-Dustin Browder

Frodan: I also want to follow up on a post you made a while ago. It was on the forums, I'm not sure if you can recall. But you talked about changing maybe the unit pathing AI, maybe tweaking some of the dynamic movement. Can you explain exactly what you guys did, maybe the results, and maybe some of your concerns because you said it wasn't that different.

Browder: We saw some videos that our fans put together, which is awesome. A variable which they were tweaking within the path finder, it would basically cause units to keep their position until they got to their target point, and they would still cluster up again. A lot of our players have felt that the spreading out would be something beneficial for E-sports, that it would cause the armies to look bigger, it would be a little easier to read what's going on in some of the bigger armies. So we tested this variable in our game, we tested it for a couple of days, playing tons and tons of games and it didn't make much of a difference because the reality is the test they were showing on a map was all these units spread out with a single right click across the map so the units will all spread out, so it look great. But nobody plays that way. They click rapidly in very short spaces so the units are always clustered. The other thing too that's typical about this is the fact of the matter that players want their units clustered. They don't want them spread out. It's more cool for E-sports perspective but not if you want to win a game. If you want to win a game, you want to cluster. You especially want to cluster when you are fighting with Marines and Maruaders, say against Zealots. You want to be in a tight ball and murdering them. You do want to split when you want to fight Banelings. So there's sometimes you want to split, and sometimes want to cluster. So it's really about what's the default and for us it felt like the smarter answer is look most of the time, especially for new users, clustering is correct. If the pros want to split up their units, they should split up their units and that's something they can do. We're seeing more and more and more pros who want to win games are spreading out their armies at the appropriate moment and gaining an advantage for it. But at the end of the day, we didn't put that one in beta because it didn't do that much. I wouldn't be ashamed to try something else at some point to see how that feels but that one did not do sort of what we all thought it would. It was actually almost no change to the game at all, so at that point what's the point of introducing all that work on us, all the testing, and all the uncertainty of that if it doesn't actually change much.

Frodan interviewing Browder at WCS


If I'm reading this correctly, he's saying that there isn't a unit movement alternative that doesn't have the "clumpyness" of the current algorithm. Clumping has been a big issue with the watchability of WOL. Many have proposed that unit movement is the biggest factor, but Blizz is suggesting otherwise.

Don't want this
[image loading]

Do want something like this (but doesn't have to be this exactly). Taken from Maverick's video.
[image loading]

There have been many proposed changes to unit movement. Are none of these suffice? (Will be adding more videos as I find them. I know they are there, just need to dig a bit) None of them improve at the very least the visual aspect of the game?


Alternative 1: by sluggaslamoo



Alternative 2: by pzea469
TL thread
Reddit thread



Alternative 3: by Maverick
See 1:20 where the marines space out when moving. The spacing is VERY little but looks much better.




Alternative 4: by Kabel (Starbow)
Kabel's statement
And as a last note, units are less clumped up and do not move in perfect formations anymore... Keeping an eye on your army is ever so important. Death to the deathball!!!

An example can be seen at 18:00 where the units start as a ball and quickly break formation. Watch the entire video for more examples.
I asked Kabel what changes he made. "Right now I only manipulate the Formation value diameter in the Gameplay Data field in the data editor."
TL thread


Bonus: Broodwar
Not a real suggestion. I want to bring this video up because many people are making references to BW so hopefully this video will show how unit movement worked (for small units at least ) for those who never played it.


In my opinion, they improve the experience from a spectators point of view (and probably a player's too). Obviously this will require rebalancing the game (increasing AOE radius, etc), which makes an expansion the oppurtune time.



Poll: How do you feel about the unit movement in WOL?

Thumbs down (449)
 
73%

Thumbs up (164)
 
27%

613 total votes

Your vote: How do you feel about the unit movement in WOL?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down

MMA: The true King of Wings
Nightsz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada398 Posts
October 23 2012 16:39 GMT
#2
wouldnt matter anyways. SC2 is balanced around deathballs. Otherwise huge changes will have to occur, either to forcefields or rescaling AoE spells in general
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
October 23 2012 16:42 GMT
#3
On October 24 2012 01:39 Nightsz wrote:
wouldnt matter anyways. SC2 is balanced around deathballs. Otherwise huge changes will have to occur, either to forcefields or rescaling AoE spells in general


Then why not? For the longevity of the game, the need to fix the issues of the game with expansions.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Fenris420
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden213 Posts
October 23 2012 16:47 GMT
#4
I think that what Mr Browder says here is basically that when you move your army around, you tend to give move commands "within the box" which causes your stuff to clump up even if you have different movement patterns. Just like how you do when you actually want to stack mutas or vikings for example.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 23 2012 16:50 GMT
#5
The movement clumping is secondary in importance to the ability of the pathing AI to clump at a destination into a tight ball. Sort of what Browder said, except he didn't acknowledge the root of the problem. DPS density is not just easy to achieve, it's automatic. The reasons to spread out your units are outweighed by the effectiveness of superior local DPS density, especially on the time scale of most engagements.

Example: roaches pack in really tight. All they ever want to do is walk up to the enemy so all of them can shoot. Spreading them out to get a better arc is more work and not as effective as just move-command into the enemy. With very high numbers, presplitting into two halves in a pseudo arc is all that's needed, requiring all of one box and right click. If roaches' automatic clumping collision radius was larger (think dragoons' staggered clumping in BW) it'd be much more important to manage pieces of a roach-based army at all points before and during a fight.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
WinterNightz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States111 Posts
October 23 2012 16:53 GMT
#6
That vulture video looks great, but what exact changes were made in it? (it looks a lot better than the second video). One of the things I have yet to see implemented in any of these videos is actually altering how a unit looks for a path. When a unit looks for a path from A to B in SC2, no allied units are considered obstacles unless they are on hold-position. In BW, every allied unit, whether moving or still, is considered an obstacle that you have to walk around. So you send an entire squad of units, and they all take steps around/away from eachother until they have a short path in front of them leading directly to the target position.

Anyways... if I had more time and understood the galaxy editor, I would put that into place. Basically all you have to do is attribute the "hold-position" command to every unit, even while it's moving, so that other units can't simply push it out of the way. (another big part is the fact that units in brood war took discrete steps, unless you gave them only a couple of pixels to move).

It's kind of sad to see blizzard's representatives making posts like that. To a mathematician, it's like hearing someone say, "I spent 5 minutes trying to think of a counterexample, but came up with nothing, so obviously the proposition is true". It's as if they have this idea that in SC2, the ideal is that all micro will be some form of spreading apart units to mitigate splash damage.
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
October 23 2012 17:00 GMT
#7
It should be up to the player, not the game, to spread their units. Clumping is the most efficient way to attack, and it is a literal translation of the attack command on a point, so the way it is now makes the most sense, with splitting occurring only when and where the player needs it.
TheDraken
Profile Joined July 2011
United States640 Posts
October 23 2012 17:04 GMT
#8
On October 24 2012 01:53 WinterNightz wrote:

It's kind of sad to see blizzard's representatives making posts like that. To a mathematician, it's like hearing someone say, "I spent 5 minutes trying to think of a counterexample, but came up with nothing, so obviously the proposition is true". It's as if they have this idea that in SC2, the ideal is that all micro will be some form of spreading apart units to mitigate splash damage.


this.

after reading that i feel like they just spent 20 minutes fooling around with collision box sizes instead of actually changing unit pathing. kind of sad that they just blew it off like this.
fast food. y u no make me fast? <( ಠ益ಠ <)
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
October 23 2012 17:09 GMT
#9
I just wanted to add that the BW pathing contributes a lot to defender advantage and positional play. Attacking requires moving, and moving inherently disorganizes your troops. Not nearly as much the case in SC2.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
ElMeanYo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1032 Posts
October 23 2012 17:13 GMT
#10
On October 24 2012 01:53 WinterNightz wrote:
Anyways... if I had more time and understood the galaxy editor, I would put that into place. Basically all you have to do is attribute the "hold-position" command to every unit, even while it's moving, so that other units can't simply push it out of the way. (another big part is the fact that units in brood war took discrete steps, unless you gave them only a couple of pixels to move).


If this was in place, it would be a nightmare trying to get a group of units up a ramp or through a choke. Such places would be even more of a bottleneck than they are now.
“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.” ― Theodore Roosevelt
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 17:19:59
October 23 2012 17:18 GMT
#11
On October 24 2012 02:13 ElMeanYo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 01:53 WinterNightz wrote:
Anyways... if I had more time and understood the galaxy editor, I would put that into place. Basically all you have to do is attribute the "hold-position" command to every unit, even while it's moving, so that other units can't simply push it out of the way. (another big part is the fact that units in brood war took discrete steps, unless you gave them only a couple of pixels to move).


If this was in place, it would be a nightmare trying to get a group of units up a ramp or through a choke. Such places would be even more of a bottleneck than they are now.

Have you ever seen BW...???

It might affect the stability of the game though, in terms of how often it checks for pathing and how long that would take. The engine was designed to work a certain way performance-wise and this might be too CPU costly (at least for low-end computers).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Zoltan
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States656 Posts
October 23 2012 17:20 GMT
#12
I just wanna go ahead and say,

Fuck you, Dustin Dooshbag Browder.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT
never made a real difference in a live game.


If the units stay in formation, well then they stay in formation!

I am of the opinion that pro players can and should spread out their units more by hand. The benefits are enormous. Fortunately we are starting to see this in some games and I expect this trend to continue


well Mr. Fuckbrowder, I'm not a pro. I'm just a masters league dude with 80 apm. Help me by giving me a way that doesn't take 10 actions to spread my 8 marines, or to unclump my vikigns so i dont lose to ONE fungal growth. Or let me watch a game that looks awesome, and not like a big moving pile of i dont know what + Show Spoiler +
shit
.

Seriously fuck you Dustin Browder. Fuck you.

User was warned for this post
'HOW LONG HAVE THOSE REAPERS BEEN KILLING MY PROBES?!?!
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
October 23 2012 17:20 GMT
#13
Without having to rebalance all the AOE spells there are and such, they can do a small fix to make things better. I don't want it to be like BW where it forces your units apart, but what I would like is for you to be able to split up your units if you want (like you can in WoL), but when you move them forward, they should NOT clump up so fast again. Make them converge slower. This will promote more battles where your army may be split up more when you want it to. For situations where you want to clump up (for more DPS density), that's cool too because then there is the risk of losing a lot of your units to AOE. Then if you want to clump them back together, you click "within a box" so that they gather back together.

This would make splitting up your units easier and take less skill, but I think it would make gameplay better and diversify strategies. In that way, there would be more situations to learn, to compensate for the easier splitting.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
October 23 2012 17:20 GMT
#14
There's also the option to simply make the units a little bigger. That way, they'd take longer to move through chokes, they'd take less splash damage, etc.
HelloSon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States456 Posts
October 23 2012 17:21 GMT
#15
On October 24 2012 02:00 XenoX101 wrote:
It should be up to the player, not the game, to spread their units. Clumping is the most efficient way to attack, and it is a literal translation of the attack command on a point, so the way it is now makes the most sense, with splitting occurring only when and where the player needs it.

Yeah, I'd say it's a fair reasoning and agreeing what Browder is saying.
yo
two_sheds
Profile Joined January 2012
Croatia104 Posts
October 23 2012 17:21 GMT
#16
Blizzard even considering this is big news. Even bigger news than all the new HoTS units imo.
It would be a good thing if Blizzard made official map or better yet client build on PTR with these settings so that the community and pros can try it out.
Unit movement and clumping isn't something that can be figured out in a couple of days, and with all the work SC2 devs have right now it is understandable they don't have the time to do it by themselves.
We have the time.
We have the enthusiasm.
Let us help !
"You don't agree to have a theme park built inside of you if your life is going well"
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
October 23 2012 17:21 GMT
#17
This is something for the programers not the design team to play with in the editor for a couple of days. If they really want to change unit movement, they can. They apparently do not want to.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
WinterNightz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States111 Posts
October 23 2012 17:22 GMT
#18
On October 24 2012 02:18 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 02:13 ElMeanYo wrote:
On October 24 2012 01:53 WinterNightz wrote:
Anyways... if I had more time and understood the galaxy editor, I would put that into place. Basically all you have to do is attribute the "hold-position" command to every unit, even while it's moving, so that other units can't simply push it out of the way. (another big part is the fact that units in brood war took discrete steps, unless you gave them only a couple of pixels to move).


If this was in place, it would be a nightmare trying to get a group of units up a ramp or through a choke. Such places would be even more of a bottleneck than they are now.

Have you ever seen BW...???

Yeah, that's kind of a completely-intended consequence. Ramps and terrain should be more than just a doorway you can go through unimpeded. They should actually be a hurdle that slows down an army, (and giving a stronger defenders advantage).
Jasiwel
Profile Joined June 2012
United States146 Posts
October 23 2012 17:22 GMT
#19
I want Blizzard to find ways to stop the clumping. As much as I love Psionic Storm, I hate deathballs. Period. We are demanding they do this and we have good reasons why, so I think they should invest more time into finding a good solution than just saying "Sorry, we tried for a week or two and it didn't work out that well. Cheers!"
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
October 23 2012 17:24 GMT
#20
I updated the OP with more example videos and added a poll.

Poll: How do you feel about the unit movement in WOL?

Thumbs down (449)
 
73%

Thumbs up (164)
 
27%

613 total votes

Your vote: How do you feel about the unit movement in WOL?

(Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down

MMA: The true King of Wings
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