I understand what you mean, but

" Here we see a distinct relationship between Zerg units and their tier 1 counterparts. Zerglings will always lose on a unit to unit basis. However 2 Zerglings will eat a Marine, and 4 Zerglings will overwhelm a Zealot. Cost for cost, Zerglings are the most efficient ground unit in terms of damage "

isn't really true. This statement only applies on low count of units, because 20 marines will destroy 40 lings in matter of seconds

Cheekio

United States34 Posts

October 31 2012 17:20 GMT

#62

I've been trying, very inarticulately, to discuss your proposed changes to the hydra and the roach. I'd like to just bump the thread to say that the hydra changes are brilliant and make the hydra a viable unit early game to late, and the tier 2.5 roach so well suits the design of the unit, and addresses the metagame which revoles around needing force multipliers (or significant harassment options) after lair. Not to mention this makes sense roach abilities of burrowed regen and burrow-movement.

An early game ranged attacker would allow zerg to pressure Terran or Protoss wall-ins if they are fast expanding, and a weak-vs-light hydra would be chased off by small numbers of units in the early game.

Soular

7 Posts

October 31 2012 20:38 GMT

#63

So in lore the hydralisk evolves to the lurker so why not switch the tiers of the hydralisk and the roach and then move the Swarm Host to an evolution of the roach? nerf Queens to make them want to run or burrow to air harass that the earlier hydras would make up for in defense.

This gives the roach better transitional play instead of, 'Oh, I need to make room for corruptors for my broodlords, better make a good attack and let them all get killed'. this would promote a roach/swarm host army while producing infestors to then corruptor/broodlord/swarm host/infestor army which basically gives the zerg every unit that produces energy units to swarm the opponent. If a terran or protoss let the zerg get that far they will have to find a way to deal with the impending swarm. but as mentioned earlier here in this thread switcing the roach and the hydra promotes harass and anti-light builds early game against zerg so it gives plenty of opportunities for smart harassing players to cripple the zerg enough to move out their army before the zerg can get up the units he'd like most to have, which from a spectator view point will make sure that all ZvX early games are exciting since it would be advantagious for the terran or protoss to start slowing the swarm's build up.

People_0f_Color

177 Posts

October 31 2012 21:13 GMT

#64

Love aLL of these changes

pixelAsurA

United States15 Posts

October 31 2012 22:28 GMT

#65

OP: I very much agree with switching the tiers of roaches and hydras. While your numbers may need some tweaking, the reasoning behind them is more than solid. I have a set of changes that I believe remains true to your ideas but might attain the goal of switching the tiers of roaches and hydras just as well as yours :D If they're terrible feel free to criticize :D

~Hydra Den: 150/0; 40s; Req. Spawning Pool
~Muscular Augments: 125/125; 90s; Req. Lair; Increases Hydralisk off-creep movespeed to 3.375. (Same as on-creep)
~Remove Grooved Spines *
~Change Hydralisk rotation time to that of a marine, because being able to micro is cool.
~Hydralisk: 65/25; 25s; 75 Life; 0 armor; 5 Range; 8 (+3 Armored) / 0.87 DPS; 1 supply; Biological. This makes hydras viable against Hellions and makes them not insta-die to speedbanes. 8 base damage makes Hydras larva-effective vs lings by 5-shotting them (as they're not cost-effective until higher numbers), which, combined with the attribute change, prevents ZvZ from becoming endless banewars and causes it to tend more towards hydra-ling for the midgame. Additionally, 8 base damage increases their effectiveness against Marines before CS (7 -> 6 shots). However, the small(er) health pool of 75 makes hydras die in two shots to +1 tanks assuming no armor upgrades on the hydras. Changing the damage to +armored makes the hydra a more clear counter to the stalker whilst being relatively terrible vs the zealot. Decreasing rate of fire to .87 from .83 makes hydra v. marine battles more marine-favored. The mineral cost is not a multiple of 25, but 75/25 seemed too much while 50/25 seemed too little.

~Roach Warren: 175/50; 55s; Req. Lair
~Tunneling Claws: 150/150; 70s; Req. None. Drastically reduced research time to account for build time of the warren itself, which can't be started until Lair.
~Spawning Seeds: 50/50; 40s; Req. None. (Researched @ Infestation Pit) Allows Roaches to morph into Swarm Hosts for 100/75 and 1 supply.
~Roach: 100/25; 30s; 175 Life; 2 armor; 3.5 Range; 19 / 2 DPS; 3 Movespeed; 2 supply; Armored Biological. The increased life enables Roaches to survive 3 tank shots, and 19 base damage allows Roaches to 3-shot CS marines on equal or lesser upgrades (Until +2 attack for roaches). Range reduced so as to decrease role overlap and increase synergy between Roach and Hydra. The swarm host research kind of helps the infestation pit become a kind of second-tier upgrade structure a la twilight council. This would also make it more appealing to build the pit despite the weaker fungal you've suggested. Perhaps more could be done with this.

*Or, remove muscular augments, increase hydra base movement to 2.5 (3.75 on creep), and change the range increase to +2. Because paying 150/150 for +1 range is stupid.

ItWhoSpeaks

United States362 Posts

November 26 2012 08:40 GMT

#66

Just a friendly update on what is going on with Zerg this week in OneVoice:

Hydralisk's have had their damage increased and their attack damage decreased as well as some tweaks to their attack animation to allow them to stutterer-step. This is in an ongoing effort to encourage micro with T 1.5 units.
Hydralisks currently require Grooved Spines (range upgrade) to attack air. It is cheap 100/100 and requires a Spawning Pool to research, but it has a long research time. This change is being tested because Phoenix and Banshees are high risk low reward ventures. This gives a 120 second window for Air harass to be effective or allow for some defensive transitions to go underway before a hoard of Hydras come knocking. Queens have 7 range AA again to compensate.

Roaches have been getting a good deal of love lately to better define them in the mid and late game.
Roaches currently have 160 HP and base 2 armor. Do 16 damage with a slightly slower attack speed 2.2. Additionally, they move at 2.0 while borrowed. This week we will be testing a new Hive research for Roaches called Corrosive Pheromones, which applies a stack of Corrosive Pheromones to any unit that shares space with or is attacked by the Roach. Each stack reduces the armor of the target and reveals it for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to three times and has a visual indicator. A special note, this debuff is applied when units are on top of burrowed roaches, allowing Zerg to better keep tabs on an army with a handful of roaches.

Infestors are getting a new research unlocked at hive called Resonance Chitin that allows them to use their spells while burrowed. This allows Infestors to use Neural Parasite while still allowing counterplay. Fungal's current state (slow instead of root) makes surprise Fungal Growths dangerous, but not devastating in the late game. The Infestor now feels very different from the Viper, focusing more on the element of surprise rather than prowling the skies looking for tasty units to pull.

GregMandel

France822 Posts

November 26 2012 09:36 GMT

#67

No AA Queen seems really bad, I mean it's going to be 1-1-1 heaven in ZvT, because no AA queens mean invest heavily into spores and that means less drones -> less eco -> less units

I don't see this become a viable option

Also T1.5 hydra means really week against early hellions runby if there isn't a sim-city and it disables the roach pressure openings and violet push-like builds so less pressure from Z.

ItWhoSpeaks

United States362 Posts

November 26 2012 10:40 GMT

#68

On November 26 2012 18:36 GregMandel wrote:
No AA Queen seems really bad, I mean it's going to be 1-1-1 heaven in ZvT, because no AA queens mean invest heavily into spores and that means less drones -> less eco -> less units

I don't see this become a viable option

Also T1.5 hydra means really week against early hellions runby if there isn't a sim-city and it disables the roach pressure openings and violet push-like builds so less pressure from Z.

You are right, no AA on the Queen was bad, and we reverted it. Hellions are not as strong as Hydras as you might think! Hydras have Medium armor, meaning they take half damage from light and armored bonuses (Like Brood War). This makes Hydras vs Hellions depend on upgrades and positioning. If the Hydras can keep the hellions at bay with good splits, their superior dps will drive away the Hellions. However, it the Hydras clump up a bit too much, Hellions can swing in and use their overlapping AoE to wipe them out. Having seen players better than me go about it, I can say that it is REALLY cool to watch.