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Liked the other 2, seem the series ran kinda out of steam.
Switching of Roach and Hydra was said so often, I don´t believe in it anymore.
By having no mobile T1, Zerg have the freedom to have stronger anti ground capabilities. zerg are about speed and counter attacking. When enemies take to the air, just overwhelming them at the ground in such high numbers they can´t be killed by air units in time is a very zerg like move to me. Even comparably high numbers of banshees can´t protect a base from dying against a banelingbust.
What I would like, however, is to have both Roaches(and maybe Hydras) made into smaller 1 supply units.
1 supply 90 hp roaches that do 12 damage every 2.5 seconds.
An actual speed upgrade for hydras that puts them on par with roaches or faster. Increase hydra hp to 90-100(armor stays 0), maybe do something to damage but by god, please, make them move a lot faster. Much faster.
Right now roaches and hydras are fucked up on the scale of slow & strong ->fast & fragile
Roaches are fast and strong, Hydras are slow and fragile, which is just flat out wrong.
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at the start i disagreed on all your changes, since they seemed silly. But now i don't even know what to think of it. The changes are so big that it would be an entirely different game.
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It would still be Starcraft, but the dynamics would be markedly different, (and hopefully more varied)
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It certainly sounds like it would be a more varied, fun, and balanced game, especially with the protoss changes
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The hope is that some of these tweaks would make Starcraft 2 shine as its own game while still incorporating the lessons learned from Brood War. I really admire the mechanics and design in Starbow, but the the game's architecture relies too heavily on Brood War units for Blizzard to be able to adopt it.
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Everything here is Real and Good and True.
If this were a lesser website where silly images were considered acceptable responses, I'd post one of a very please seal pup with the caption "Seal of Approval" underneath it.
But this isn't one of those websites.
So I'll just reiterate that I miss seeing hydras.
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I think the roach/hydra switch would be the best thing they could do for zerg.
But i really liked this post and this series. Keep um coming!
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Here are some of my thoughts:
Conceptually, there is no argument that Zerg playstyle should be defined by its tendency to aggressiveness to gain territory; this is reinforced by "insect" stereotypes across various movies and games including starship troopers, world of warcraft (AQ40, Mantid), natural selection etc.
Zerg units, as mentioned in the OP, are defined by their cheapness on a 1-to-1 basis (supply and cost wise), and have a reasonably mobile yet powerful army which allows them to take control of large swathes of the map quickly. The essential drawback of Zerg units are their frailty and extreme vulnerability to powerful AOE, as well as their short range. This means that they require a high level of technical finesse to control, perhaps just as much so as Terran. Zerg units must be spread out across a long line ("front" in military terminology) or in small groups. Rushing all of them in a ball will result in most of them derping around and dying without doing anything. The popular "Zerg Rush" cannot and should not be performed into a choke against someone with a brain; it has to be done intelligently and carefully, with spread out forces across multiple selection groups to trap and cut off the retreat of an enemy and also to maximise surface area.
Failure to surround with zerglings, failure to babysit defilers, failure to control the muta ball properly, failure to clone scourges, failure to burrow/unburrow lurkers, forgetting about burrowed lurkers and a-moving huge clumps of hydras into storms/tanks are common mistakes that still happen in many OSL level games...long story short, controlling the Zerg army is very, very difficult and miscontrolling them is very, very punishing. In an even game there is no such thing as 1a2a3a. If you do that then Zerg is terrible.
Additionally, the more bases a Zerg acquires, the harder it gets to defend them all because their forces will be spread thin, and Zerg units perform terribly when Terran/Protoss players drop a crack squad into a perfect position. This makes the preservation of mutas and patrolling scourges very important throughout the game.
Practically, this is not the case in SC2. The Zerg player is seldom aggressive, preferring to stay on 3-4 bases which are designed to be easy to defend. Predictably, it is difficult to stop 3 base play without an all-in. There are very few scenarios that will gain you an strategical advantage by pressuring the Zerg around the 10-12 minute mark. Meaning that if you attack perfectly in the midgame and the Zerg defends perfectly, you will gain nothing out of it.
Similarly, if any attack is made by the Zerg on lair tech, it is also going to be an all-in. So "standard play" has devolved into a rush to hive tech and infestor/BL blockades, which are incidentally so slow, it is hard to be aggressive with them. It becomes more like the lategame of other races, where you simply make a doom push across the map and trade to win.
This is quite anti-zerg play. In fact it sounds a lot like BW PvZ where you 2 base and tech, turtle against hydra busts, creep out to take a 3rd before making a powerful high tech army to steamroll the enemy. Or TvZ mech play. In other words, it sucks.
If this is to change, I think that spawn larvae should be nerfed and supply costs should go down, allowing the Zerg to make a bigger army but forcing them to take more bases overall. Infestors are a horrible unit overall and promote turtling, and it is far too easy to use fungal growth to stop entire armies in their tracks so that BLs can fire with impunity and screw up pathing. In general I feel that powerful AOE spells (storm, fungal, EMP, HSM, the new dark swarm, the "grab" mechanic) should never be on smart cast and be buffed to compensate.
I would also welcome a more mobile hydralisk that swaps tiers with the roach, which should be a "specialist" unit instead of a dragoon with extraordinarily high health and extraordinarily weak DPS.
A reversion to the previous idea of the roach, an average unit with below average DPS but very high regeneration, could be interesting. This may help in defending additional bases where the enemy could be forced to choose between killing the hatch or killing the roaches - in other words, a delaying tactic.
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On October 12 2012 19:24 eu.exodus wrote:
if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.
the very simple fix to this would be to make hydras non light. they already have such a small HP pool that it would not affect them too much and solve the problem of having too much early anti light damage available
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So I've been thinking on these issues for a long time.
Essentially, the balance structure of SC2 demands a T1.5 Armoured Unit. Otherwise Banelings/Reapers/Hellions just wreck Zerg. However, the Roach just doesn't feel right in this position. Nor does the Hydra feel right at Tier 2. In mirror matchups, there is a requirement for a rock-paper-scissors mechanic or otherwise the matchups degenerate fairly promptly.
In effect, the Roach is required at T1.5. Or something like the roach which is a point a lot of people seem to be missing.
If I were to design the Roach from the ground up, the following would design would apply (NOTE I AM NOT SUGGESTING THESE CHANGES, merely remarking on what a characterful roach might look like):
This unit is designed to be annoying/threatening
Failure to get detection is a mistake
In its final form, it moves faster underground than above ground (it is not a main army unit, it is harrass or detachment)
Focus fire is a must
It has to still be a threat while burrowed
Specifics:
1 Food.
Average Health (60-80 range) with 2 Armour.
Average above-ground movement.
Slow burrowed movement by default. Upgradeable to movement faster than above-ground movement.
Fast regeneration while burrowed (upgradeable to grant super fast undeground and fast-ish above ground regen)
Immediate access to burrow (suggests a tier 2 unit).
Damage, low DPS in a straight confrontation which suggests perhaps a DOT would work. Eg. maybe 8 per shot (long cool-down) plus 1 DPS for 8 seconds after (Or 2 for 4).
Theoretical use:
I tech to roaches in the same way I might tech to DTs or Banshees. This fellows sneak around, pop up, let off a few shots and wait for the DOT to deal damage while regenerating underground. The faster underground movement makes micro a must. However they are pretty weak to things like tanks or immortals (2-shotted) and detection seriously limits their effectiveness.
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So if this were the roach, then what would be at tier 1, because it's clearly not a tier 1 unit. Hydra fine, but then all light would be very vulnerable. Maybe a different tier 1 armoured unit which feels a bit more zergy, that can stand up to zealots, reapers, hellions and banelings... It might require the baneling to become Tier 2 instead. If so burrow could be Tier 1 again.
So a different lineup might look like Tier 1: Zergling/Armoured Unit/Hydra. Tier 2: Baneling/Roach
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As for the Corruptor, why don't just have its ability that it can periodically drop some broodlings as a spell. Get 4 corruptors, drop 8 broodlings on the opposing mineral lines. Something like annoying vikings/phoenixs
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Zerg Suggestion #1
An aspect of the Zerg i find lacking is their lack of unit based evolutions compared to brood war.
in brood war you had: + Show Spoiler +
the lurker mutated from the hydralisk (tier1.5)
the guardian evolved from the mutalisk
the devourer evolved from the mutalisk
all units that arent available from larvae but are evolved from existing primary attack units (the hydra and mutalisk) these units had supporting roles the their predecessors and greatly enhanced the feel of the zerg as a selectively constantly mutating army that reacts to it's opponents army composition on the go. in Starcraft 2 we only have + Show Spoiler +
the baneling mutated from the zergling
the broodlord mutated from the corrupter
now the issues discussed in this thread made me think,
the roach doesnt feel right as a 2 supply unit at tier 1.5 it is too generic and supply heavy for the zerg
why not replace the roach with a
[COOL NAME PLACEHOLDER FOR MINI ROACH]
looks like the roach without the melee claws and about 80% scale of the current roach
new stats: + Show Spoiler +Cost: 50 minerals 25 gas
Build time: 27 seconds
Supply: 1
90 HP
1 Armor
2.7 movement speed off creep (slower than speed roaches fast than slow roaches)
Ground attack: + Show Spoiler +Acid Spittle (same as current roach for visuals)
range:4 (same as roach)
Damage: 12 (+1/upgrade) (reduced by 4 and 1 less dmg/ upgrade than roach)
cooldown: 2 sec (same as roach)
new Upgrade: + Show Spoiler +Digestive Bile
costs 150 minerals 150 gas 60 seconds
Heals for 5 HP per attack
roach speed upgrade removed tunneling claws upgrade removed burrow healing removed
Projected Change: This new mini roach still fills the role of early game meat shield and ranged support to zerglings but no longer is a burrow specialist. with it's new upgrade it heals for an average of 2.5 HP/sec in combat making it a great damage absorbing unit. due to the nature of its healing ability it is weakest when retreating.
now we have a tier 1.5 unit that is massable, feels zergy and retains the roach's role in the early game.
now for the fun part:
new upgrade at roach warren available at lair tech: Evolve Roach costs 200/200 90 seconds gives mini roaches the ability to mutate into the new powerful Tier 2 Roach [NEW TIER 2 ROACH] visuals: 1.2x the size of the current roach with much larger melee claws and a segmented carapace Stats: + Show Spoiler +Cost:50 minerals 50 gas
mutation time: 10 seconds
supply cost: 1
new total costs (including mini roach)
100 minerals 75 gas 2 supply 37 seconds
165 HP
2 armor
1.95 movement speed off creep (slower than slow roaches)
2.25 movement on creep (slow roaches off creep) Ground Attack: + Show Spoiler +Injector Claws
Damage: 16 (+1/upgrade)
range: 2
cooldown: 1.8
Passive Ability:
Corrosive Poison
attacks deal an additional 8 damage over 2 seconds (reapplication refreshes the duration does not stack) Passive Ability: + Show Spoiler +Tunneling Claws
Roaches move at 90% speed while burrowed (upgrades to 120% speed)
Burrow movement upgrade is available at the roach warren for 150m150g/60sec
Projected Change:
This new Roach mutation is sturdier and is specialized as a burrow infiltration unit and mid game front line beef unit.
its passive poison damage promotes hit and run tactics to gain the most dps and while it's above ground speed is quite bad it makes up for it by being able to effectively stealth at will with little cost to mobility and even increased mobility with upgrades.
now we have a weaker tier 1.5 roach and a specialist mutation available at tier 2
Zerg Suggestion #2
Another change i would like to see but is not tied to the above roach changes is the increase substantially the number of selective mutations available to the zerg using the existing units.
here is my new proposed unit tree for zerg: + Show Spoiler +-Queen
-drone >> buildings
-zergling >> baneling
-mini roach >> (Tier 2 Roach)
-mini roach >> Infestor
-Hydralisk >> Swarm Host
-Ultralisk
-Mutalisk >> Viper
-Corrupter >> Broodlord
Now there are only 7 units created from larvae as basic building blocks to your swarm from these units you mutate selective broods into the supporting roles your army needs depending on the situation
Projected change:
with this structure you would see larger fodder armies support but specialized "mutations" leading to a much more swarmy zerg. all zerg casters (apart from queen) are now created from basic warrior broods (mini roach and mutalisk). i feel like this brings home the true feeling of being a giant living swarm of constantly evolving organisms.
PS: sorry for hijacking your threads i just love your ideas so much and want to contribute my thoughts. i just made my account here so i cant start my own threads for another day 
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I like the idea of having the Roach as an upgrade from a earlier-tier roach.
Life-steal is also a neat idea for adding durability without creating serious imbalances.
Still, it is such a 'large' change as to be unviable.
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On October 22 2012 13:29 Goobahfish wrote:
I like the idea of having the Roach as an upgrade from a earlier-tier roach.
Life-steal is also a neat idea for adding durability without creating serious imbalances.
Still, it is such a 'large' change as to be unviable.
wtb starcraft 3 
edit: i wish that they made larger sweeping changes with each starcraft 2 patch instead of add better graphics and 2 units per race hurr durr new game.
making larger sweeping changes that build upon the previous build would be alot of work but i would shell out an extra 10 bucks an expansion for it.
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With such a "wall of text" you should really put a lot of effort into formatting to make reading it easier.
- I dont like the Corruption Egg spell for the simple reason that it deals damage. Spellcasters which deal damage are very very powerful and since they are an air unit AND pretty tough themselves you can pretty much vaporize enemy air units on their own. (You didnt say it was "ground target only", which seems intended by the broodling spawning.) Corruptors are a great and useful unit because they can morph into Broodlords and are pretty tough AA flyers. That should be enough!
- The change to Fungal Growth is nice and it is a good alternative version. However I dont like the "8 seconds duration" which is AGES in SC2. Instead of this it should create a cloud that lasts 8 seconds and if you move out of it you get rid of the effect.
- Sadly you mentioned the "free infested Terrans" but didnt decide to get rid of it. This would be a good thing, because you try to make Zerg "more swarmy" (which I approve) with lower supply units.
- The Zerg race *should be* all about requiring to rebuild units and wearing down the enemy as you said, BUT since they can "trade equal or better" (just get a few lucky/skilled hits with Banelings against Marines) and the opponent has to become a Zerg himself the whole thing is kinda not balanced between the races. Thus some more drastic measures are REQUIRED to give them back this feeling (see below).
All in all I think these pipedreams are pretty much useless, because you focus too much on the UNITS and forget to look at the MECHANICS which make the races terrrible to balance and limited.
The good old days
1. Production as in BW/SLOW = GOOD; FAST =/= automatically GOOD
Getting rid of all production speed boosts for all races and all economic boosts will make the game slower and thus increase the importance of the individual unit. The game would also benefit from reducing the density of ground units, because they are the key reason why air units are pretty useless (10-20 tighly packed and stimmed Marines or Stalkers or Hydras shoot down very expensive air units easily) for example and why defensive structures are not a huge stumbling block in an attackers path. I always wonder why commentators say "he is safe because he built ONE Spine Crawler" ... which doesnt do much on its own.
2. Unit movement and clumping
The way to improve the game and have an easier way to balance the game is NOT forward, but backwards! BW had overpowered units but it didnt matter, because you didnt lose all your army when you ran into a Lurker or Siege Tank with a few of your units. People say that the tight formations is a "technological improvement", but thats a stupid reason to keep it, because "logic" is not a requirement in such a game and thus certain limitations can be introduced to make the game easier to balance. Limitations on the number of units in a group AND each ground unit requiring more space will make the game better not only for viewers, but also for casuals who arent going to be overrun that easily by every opponent who simply chooses to go aggressive instead of economic.
3. Pacing and battles
BW had a nice pacing of the game compared to SC2, because it was a WAR where you had lots of battles and engagements everywhere instead of two maxed armies dancing forwards and backwards until they annihilate each other in a 20 second engagement. This is the real culprit why SC2 is kinda boring ... it is over too quick and battles between two Zerg forces are terrible to watch. TLO vs Nerchio yesterday gave just such an example, because everything gets fungaled and you cant tell one Zerg side from the other; lots of green Roach shots add to the general "greenness" of the screen. In any case the battle is over after a few seconds. Boring to watch and I will remember their "friendly banter" at the start of the match much more than the games themselves.
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If blizzard made The zerg to The swarm agian i Would switch to zerg instantly.
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Agree with #1 Changes.........................
POST THIS ON THE BETA FORUMS.
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+10 this is awesome. The changes are about right what the swarm needs.
What about a lair/hive tech option to give hydras a passive attack when in contact with enemy melee units (they do have spines afterall) so that hydras have a soft counter to chargelots/burrow ultras/lings and they are viable late game?
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I love this thread. I simply cannot express my disdain for the Roach though. It's not a Zerg-like unit at all. It's badly designed given its output and cost, boring to watch, predictable in matches, irritating to fight against because it's so resilient as a Tier 1.5 unit, and can be way too cost-effective until the late game. There is basically no other unit in PvZ that you can be like "What do I do I might be screwed because I was too greed? I wait, I'll just spam this one with Lings." besides the Mutalisk than the Roach and Mutalisks are a considerable investment at least. I simply feel that it was just a bad design choice to fill that second-tier Zerg role before the weak Hydra we have now.
Therefore, after reading your suggested changes for the Roach and Hydra, I absolutely agree with you. The tech levels simply need reversing and I love that you see the Roach as a stepping ladder to Ultras in the evolution chain. It's not so much that I hate the Roach's concept, it's just that its design as a Tier 1.5 unit is pathetic and simply out of place. If the changes ever did happen, I'd be glad to say that upon seeing Roach tech I'd be like "Oh snap, he's going for Roaches" rather than "Ugh. Roaches."
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So how do we feel about a delicate lithe flying unit with little flappy wings called Viper pulling units weighing tons such as siege tanks (even in siege mode) across a long distance using its tongue (?) without any visible physical exertion?
I know it's got its uses, but I wonder why it couldn't be made more believable.
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On October 31 2012 12:19 Proseat wrote:
So how do we feel about a delicate lithe flying unit with little flappy wings called Viper pulling units weighing tons such as siege tanks (even in siege mode) across a long distance using its tongue (?) without any visible physical exertion?
I know it's got its uses, but I wonder why it couldn't be made more believable.
I think the distance that it pulls should decrease based on if the unit is Massive or Aerial. It does look really silly and kind of craps on gameplay to an extent.
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EPT
