Zerg Identity: Supply and Cost vs P and T - Page 2

ItWhoSpeaks

United States362 Posts

October 12 2012 07:34 GMT

#21

On October 12 2012 13:10 I_Destroy wrote:
I think you should try to make a map with your changes and see how well they work out and if they do. Show blizzard that they are worthy of being implemented in to the real game.

It's going to be a thing

Nihilnovi

Sweden696 Posts

October 12 2012 07:50 GMT

#22

So Zerg would have to open Hydra den every single game vs Toss or outright die to a mothership core.

The changes you propose heed on thought to the timings sc2 is built around and are far too drastic.

ledarsi

United States475 Posts

October 12 2012 08:31 GMT

#23

Designing a game around timings is a mistake. Timings are emergent. The game should be designed around unit interactions and mechanics, and making those interactions fun and interesting for the player. Specific timings, strategies, and builds should be created in response to the structure of the game. The structure of the game should not ever respond to the strategies in vogue, or common builds and timings. Players should invent these things in response to the game, not the other way around.

Project_R

3 Posts

October 12 2012 09:01 GMT

#24

I like the OP very much and I do believe that the proposed changes would help in the issues with zerg, but I think there are also very large assumptions that aren’t being addressed.

One, is the fact that Blizzard has constantly stated that they DO NOT WANT BROOD WAR UNITS in SC2. Regardless of how much it would help balance the game, they want this game to be unique with its own unique tech trees and units. So this concerns the proposed Hydralisk which is basically a BW hydralisk. As much as I’d love to see BW hydras back in the game, I just don’t think it’s happen.

I, personally, have been thinking about this also. (I am a Protoss Player so take this with a grain of salt) The issue I’ve always had with the Zerg design is the roach and how it just isn’t Zerg-like. On top of that, it’s just a really awesome, but boring unit. It’s a tank that has high health, high damage, as well as incredible speed. The only things holding it back are its range and attack speed to an extent. Did anyone know that with the speed upgrade, roaches are faster than stalkers… OFF CREEP.

If I could propose some tweaks to the OP that are more probable because of how Blizzard wants the game to be unique and have its own identity. I think the Corrupter changes are great.

Roach speed should be cut out and moved to the Hydra Den so that hydras can get speed faster (from hive to lair) This gives zerg a power damage dealer in the mid game and makes more sense as Hydras are the damage dealers and should be able to kite with their range.

Make Roach tunneling claws give Roaches a speed buff while burrowed, maybe to 2.75. This way roaches can still retreat, and since they will be healing while burrowed, that speed doesn’t need to be huge. The skill ceiling will rise because opposing players will need to target fire to actually kill roaches underground. As a result of roaches losing their early speed upgrade, it would be required to be buffed in another aspect. I would suggest increasing attack speed slightly, or increasing range +1 again to compensate. This, I feel will create new, innovative play with burrow being used more effectively and knowing when to unburrow to attack. It gives Zerg their speedy Hydras without reverting back to BW hydras, plus hydras keep their insane new damage, now being worth the new cost.

Addressing the issue that the roach is 2 supply… I don’t really have too much of an opinion here, but to say that decreasing the supply to 1 would need nerfs to damage and health significantly to the roach, possibly even losing its role as a tank because roaches would be so incredibly overwhelming.

Fearce

Denmark48 Posts

October 12 2012 09:07 GMT

#25

On giant, giant maps, sc2 is actually starting to look more like BW. I've always maintained that the biggest difference is that units in SC2 move too fast.

On a totally related note, awesome thread. Loved the 'history' and identity you presented.

Millet

Sweden143 Posts

October 12 2012 09:37 GMT

#26

Along with the previous part in the series (and probably the coming), this was such a great read and great propositions. Love the corruptor changes you proposed, and even the hydra roach switch (which of course would have to be balanced). Infestor change seems pretty good as well. I never liked the rooting of fungal growth to be honest. Anything that prevents micro is a bad thing, I'm pretty sure.

Also, with the early hydras, protoss air could be buffed in order to make it more viable. Which I think is great.

Great thread, and I'm, looking forward to reading your upcoming terran counterpart.

Salteador Neo

Andorra5591 Posts

October 12 2012 10:19 GMT

#27

On October 12 2012 16:50 Nihilnovi wrote:
So Zerg would have to open Hydra den every single game vs Toss or outright die to a mothership core.

The changes you propose heed on thought to the timings sc2 is built around and are far too drastic.

Zerg has to open roach den every game to stop any protoss allin. Hell they open roach every game anyway.

The biggest concern with zerg that should be attended IMO is how the strongest composition in the game is one with 2 units, Infestor/Blord.

eu.exodus

South Africa1186 Posts

October 12 2012 10:24 GMT

#28

if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.

Mr Cochese

United Kingdom11 Posts

October 12 2012 10:25 GMT

#29

Love the ideas, though perhaps the T1 hydra is a bit too similar to the Marauder and Stalker with having a large unit bonus. Obviously the Queen losing its anti-air follows from that.

I think I'd actually go further and give the Roach its passive regeneration ability back if it was at T2. Make it a bit weaker than proposed so it's not just an Ultralisk-lite, so they die in battle, but those that survive get back to combat effectiveness rapidly.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

October 12 2012 10:27 GMT

#30

On October 12 2012 19:24 eu.exodus wrote:
if this was implemented I would start playing again. Great ideas, not over the top stupid like some of the stuff I've read. The only problem I see is that you would open with 2 light units, making Hellions super strong against you early game army.

Then you havent thought about 30min long baneling wars ot +1 7gate zealot

Tankz123

Denmark228 Posts

October 12 2012 11:07 GMT

#31

Just a quick tip - when you compare the damage of BW units and WOL units - please compare the dps, not the damage - someone pointed this out in your previous post.

Targe

United Kingdom14103 Posts

October 12 2012 13:17 GMT

#32

These posts of yours are brilliant, excellent analysis and well thought out, keep them up! can't wait for terran.

Velr

Switzerland10888 Posts

October 12 2012 13:29 GMT

#33

On October 12 2012 20:07 Tankz123 wrote:
Just a quick tip - when you compare the damage of BW units and WOL units - please compare the dps, not the damage - someone pointed this out in your previous post.

The problem is, that DPS is only half the story or not even. How fast a unit shoots and how high the dmg is, is just as important as the actual DPS and more important when it comes to its "character".

To do another BW to SC2 comparison.

The Dragoon feels nothing like the Stalker or Immortal because it's attack rate/dmg was sooo different. IT "felt" vastly stronger than other somewhat similar units like the Hydra or.. Marine... But it's DPS was iirc VERY suppar per cost (but not much per supply). This is also because only Toss had the strong AE-Spells which made Goons seem WAY more long lasting than comparable amounts of Hydras or Marines. Same with the Zealot and Zergling... That gave the whole race it's identity, which just isn't really there anymore in SC2 due to weaker AE and less diffrences between Stalker <-> Roach (and Hydra) <-> Marauder. The untis in SC2 in general just feel way too similar.

Grendel

Belgium126 Posts

October 12 2012 14:46 GMT

#34

Nice article. I agree with most changes though I would not like for the Queen to lose its anti air. The only reason I say that ks because of the mothership core which comes into the game very early, so you HAVE to get hydras very quickly every single game, which would suck. For the other races it doesn't matter that much, because their anti air is in every tech path anyway.

Further, yes Hydra as tier 1 would be cool, but there are a few things to consider as well. First, if you want hydras to actually play out like in BW, the attack animation would have to be changed as well, since atm you can't kite with hydras or they'll lose half their attack.

Further, something that obviously can be changed/balanced, but the hydra damage is quite high. In BW the hydra is balanced due to the fact that it did only small amounts of damage to small units. Here it would suddenly get a 50% damage increase versus Zealots and Marines. While cool, it shouldn't be like that that the hydra can counter ALL other tier 1 units.

For the rest, great post, keep them coming!

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

October 12 2012 15:00 GMT

#35

Balance can be so annoying. Roach started out at 1 supply but it didn't worked out. I wouldn't mind if they would nerf them so that 1 supply works at the end. Zerg would have their swarmy feel a harder to control and more expensive unit.
Doubt the hydra can be fit into a t1 unit. But i wouldn't really mind. At the end it would be just a model exchange.
And wow 8 super marines for 100/100, thats a steal.

On October 12 2012 22:29 Velr wrote:
The problem is, that DPS is only half the story or not even. How fast a unit shoots and how high the dmg is, is just as important as the actual DPS and more important when it comes to its "character".

Yes DPS is not really useful. But so is damage, knowing the damage doesn't help you if you don't know the attack speed. Roach and Zealot basically do the same damage, but the Zealot almost attacks twice as fast. Range and movement speed also play a role etc. But if you use Damage as an argument and disregard the attack speed it is pretty bad. Then DPS is actually better ... and DPS doesn't say alot.

ItWhoSpeaks

United States362 Posts

October 12 2012 21:44 GMT

#36

DPS is an important statistic, but it I would argue that damage values are more important due to their interaction with armor. The lower the damage value, or the more the attack volley is split, the more effective armor becomes at mitigating it. DPS is a hard statistic to read into other than "man, if I leave this thing in my base, I will take X damage as Y seconds pass."

sns3rsam

United States138 Posts

October 12 2012 22:30 GMT

#37

I definitely like the idea of corrupters having a different ability! Although I wouldnt mind if their current ability gets splash. That alone I feel would make their use more viable. But corruption egg seems interesting... :D

ItWhoSpeaks

United States362 Posts

October 14 2012 07:48 GMT

#38

Making it a mini plague on top of the Broodlings would probably be OP, but hey, we will know when we get the PTR mod up.

zlefin

United States7689 Posts

October 14 2012 08:55 GMT

#39

good thoughts, and you get respones; i wish i got responses like that.
Also note that zealots do better vs 4 lings than in BW, you didnt' account for the significant differences in attack speed between BW and sc2.
I strongly agree with switching the roach and hydra tech tree positions, it's one i've been favoring for quite awhile too.
The roach you propose would be quite weak for its cost,so it would truly need to be supplemented by other units.

Kaleidos

Italy172 Posts

October 14 2012 11:47 GMT

#40

On October 12 2012 19:27 Big J wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then you havent thought about 30min long baneling wars ot +1 7gate zealot

Hydras are pretty good vs non-charge zealots, and in zvz no one makes roaches before lair anyway.
The Queen vs Mothership Core is actually an issue i believe.

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