• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:36
CEST 09:36
KST 16:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed17Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 654 users

Re-Designing the Warhound.. ala "Mech" play in SC2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-19 02:08:26
September 16 2012 09:55 GMT
#1
Re-Designing the Warhound.. ala "Mech" play in SC2

By: YyapSsap

[image loading]



Introduction

As we all know, the infamous "mech" unit that was designed by Blizzard at this point in time has been scrapped and gone back to the drawing board. It was blizzard's attempt to make "mech" viable in matchups such as TvP where BIO is the dominant tech path that most T would be "forced" to go into. I say forced because a whole slew of Terran arsenal is gone unused due to several limitations imposed on them in WoL, especially in a matchup such as TvP.
So recapping, the current concept of the warhound has failed because it has:

1) Unnecessarily introduced a super marauder unit that is far too mobile for its cost. (Balance Issue)

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
it's simply a re-skinned marauder without stim but buffed by having more HP, a fast movement speed of 2.81 and being range 7 including a range 10 haywire missiles attack. It is simply too effective against every unit in this game other than flying units. Adding insult to injury, its only 2 supply, no armoury requirement and cheap. A pure numbers issue.


2) No drawbacks other than not being able to hit air units thus relying on thors/marines for GtA (Design Issue)

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
Because of its stats, theres simply no reason one would NOT get the warhound. It does well against non-mechanical units as well as mechanical ones which it was designed to counter. Its disadvantage is simply not being able to hit air, which also highlights the everlasting problem of not having that "middle GtA" unit between the marine (easily accessible and works for bio-mech styles for a short period of time) and the thor (hard to access, costly and inefficient vs armoured air units). As it stands, the viking is this unit but it's an AtA unit that doesn't share the same upgrades as factory units and requires starport tech. Both the factory and starport anti air options should be flexible with its drawbacks not in terms of +light/+armoured making them counter specific but rather in terms of mobility for example.


3) Another counter unit to the tank (Add DB quote here regarding TvT Tanks wars) where it makes their role more redundant. (Design Issue)

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
Starcraft needs more setup time based units not less of them. These units create positional based battles, dictate enemy unit by zoning out areas and don't result in 5 sec "deathball" battles. Unlike other RTS games, these type of units really separated SC with the rest of the bunch. However it is very saddening to see the siege tanks, a trademark SC unit, become one of the last of its species nearing extinction thanks to another unit that counters it.

From what I think, it has been intentional in WoL for these units to be weakened (that control space) while emphasising more on units that bypass these immobile defences all together. For whatever reason (make games faster, easier etc), I think this is the wrong way to go in the long run and it would be great if BOTH were emphasised.

Blizzard needs to be reminded that breaking siege lines is an art as with everything else. It's what makes SC so interesting when players figure out a way of stopping things. Not only that but steppes of war is a long forgotten history. Players now do not need another unit that counters the tank but worse make it redundant all together. TvT is probably the most positional matchup out of all matchups and feels alot closer to what BW produced (a highly entertaining positional battles all around the map). It also happens to be the best mirror matchup easily highlighted as to why it is recently by the game between MMA vs MVP in GSL Code S (group E set 1). Simply put, we need more emphasis on these units badly.


4) Does not stay truthful to what "mech" really is described in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325 - credits to Falling (Design Issue)

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
If the concept of the current warhound goes live, tanks will definately become redundant and its easily imaginable to see a composition of hellion/warhound/thor deathballs roaming around the map. The first two units can handle almost any composition fine while being very mobile other than not being able to bypass cliffs (medivacs). This is not what "mech" is all about.

When we look at Bio, we think mobility and all around firepower. Due to their cost, the units are more expendable but are also squashy. The core of this composition is the marine. When we think "Mech", it's all about firepower over mobility. Positioning is of utter importance as it is its strength and weakness. The core of this composition is the tank.

But as already mentiond, if the warhound becomes the core of the "mech" composition, it becomes nothing but a re-skinned Bio deathball that comes out of the factory. This is not what the community wants.


I could have missed some of its other short falls, but as you can see the core issue of the warhound is with its design as the numbers tweaking can always fix balance issues. It is a unit that simply should not belong in the game unless it is a unit that fulfils the issues discussed above.

However as alot of people have realised already, delving more into a concept of having a new mech unit (to be added to the existing units or replace the thor) really unveils how factory units are unbalanced in terms of synergy and the messiness that is known as the factory-starport/viking relationship. So in order for a so called "warhound" unit to exist that alot of us are wanting (e.g. something along the lines of a goliath), I would think that some tech restructuring is required along with balance changes to open up the past limitations which will be explained later in this post.

With all that covered let's start looking at making this "unit" viable along with making "mech" play possible in the upcoming HOTS.


Analysis


Update: For those confused at the terms GtG, GtA and vice versa, it simply stands for Ground-to-Ground (think zergling, immortals etc), Ground-to-Air (marines, hydralisks etc)

First and foremost let's look at the current factory units from WoL and analysis what is "missing" from whats considered a "mech" play.

From the WoL Factory:
[image loading]

// Nod Buggy or Vultures in disguise? //


Hellion - Incorporates a straight line GtG AOE damage, mobile and can some provide buffering. Blue flame nerf means its less effective against light units. The mineral sink for factory units and great for harassing.

[image loading]

// Back bone of the "mech" army //


Siege Tank - Huge range with average GtG splash damage given the setup time/cost and supply. Can zone out areas but need many of them. Also has alot of units that specifically counter the tank.

[image loading]

// Goliaths on steroids? //
// ..Or more like a super obese marauder that learnt how to aim his rocket launcher upwards -credits to MasterCynical //

Thor - Huge single GtG damage with long range GtA splash attack that is effective against light units but not armoured units. Too bulky and costly. Also the energy bar along with 250mm cannons (never used) makes in unviable in matchups such as TvP.
If these three units were too be used as the standard composition similiar to vulture/tank/goliath composition from BW, immediately we can see numerous disadvantages that plagues the former.

Those are:
a) Firepower of the tank is too weak hence controlling space is much harder with a few number of well placed tanks and even in direct fights the firepower is simply not there. This is simply a balance problem as we want tanks as the "core" unit in a Mech composition.
b) GtA is too weak and susceptible to armoured flying units. Thors aren't so effective as goliaths since they are more of a "general" anti air unit compared to the Thor meaning they can handle all air units fairly ok. There needs to be a general GtA unit (since tanks are the general GtG) without having to rely on marines or vikings that require starport tech.
c) The lack of mobility is not compensated by spider mines. Although hellions are as mobile, there are no ways of protecting runbys or flanks due to the immobility of tanks and thors.
d) Thors and Hellions do not buffer tanks well enough. I think most of the problem lies within the fact that things just dont die fast enough due to the lack of firepower from the tanks.

Conclusion: The current factory units (1) lack ways to compensate for its immobility, (2) lack of firepower (siege tank) compared to what its up against (hence lack of zoning multiple positons - which goes hand in hand with (1)) and (3) a general all round GtA unit that doesn't cost a fortune (minerals and build time) to produce.

With regards to (3), we can see that it can be solved by getting vikings which also happens to be the successor of the retired goliaths from BW. So what does this mean? In the current state of the game, vikings are favoured over the thor for the general anti air unit role in the Mech army (or any T composition for that matter). The over reliance on vikings creates situations such as:

1) Viking wars in TvT. Too many times we see viking wars as players battle out for air superiority to get an edge in tank vision + opening to an air transition. Thors may stop vikings giving that extra tank vision but take far too long to build and give up too much mobility if the T player doesn't decide to play the viking arms race. Not only that but once BCs hit the air, without your own fleet of vikings it becomes very difficult to stop with existing GtA units. If there is an option for this general anti air mech unit (that can also somewhat handle that air transistion), then T players have a choice to give up their and the oppositions air vision OR compete for air superiority. A much more interesting dynamic than what we see in todays TvT games.

2) Vikings becoming a necessity in TvZ and how it turns out to be a Viking vs Fungal/Corrupter battle. The thors and marines can help, but without proper viking count, it becomes very difficult to stop the BL/Infestor late compositions. Terrans are also always forced to pre-build starports due to the tech switches a Z can do late game with a snap of a finger. If however a GtA mech unit exists in this matchup, it won't suddenly shut down mutalisk play (ala thor volleys putting the entire muta flock at yellow hitpoints) but also make the Z think more about its corrupter/BL ratio since this new unit can be another option that the T has in its disposal to take out the BLs.

Lastly, they dont share the same upgrades, nor come out of the factory but the starport makes its synergy with the factory units very incoherent.

So to design the "warhound" unit, its relationship with not only the factory units but also with the viking is very very important assuming the latter unit is not tinkered with or replaced with a more wraith like unit which would also affect the banshee etc. So Id assume that vikings will remain where they are.


Blizzards Solutions ...so far

Blizzard has for quite some time acknowledged the fact that they wanted to make "mech" a viable option along with the existing "MMM" Bio compositions. So in their effort, they have introduced three units (two actually) in the form of the widow mine, battle hellion and warhound. The latter has been removed recently and I think this is a good sign as this gives me confidence that Blizzard now acknowledges what "mech" play truly is, not just a composition of units out of the factory. Lets take a look at the widow mine.

[image loading]

// Return of the mini nukes... //


Widow Mines - As it stands, a 2 supply 90hp unit that costs 75min/25gas which takes 4 seconds to burrow (Same time as a tank going into siege mode). It deals 160 damage automatically to anything that gets into range and further deal 35 splash damage. Now let's leave behind the numbers as this can always be tweaked and take a look at the design concept.

Unlike spider mines (its predecessor), widow mines can unleash a high damage hit to a single air/ground unit they latch onto including cloaked units with a range of 5. Also the mines can be activated and deactivated making them far more controllable than the spider mines (allied mines from BW anyone?). The downside is that it doesn't do much splash, take up factory time, cost gas AND take up supply. It also takes longer to get to its destination due to not being planted down by hellions (compared to vultures).

At the end of the day, it's sort of like the T version of a baneling with a slight tweak and may not do a better job than the spider mine when it comes to controlling areas. Not only that but due to taking up supply means that not many of these can be out on the map. Another issue that had its design changed was how the timer effected the mines during battle hence the detonation is now instant as the timer was removed.

So recapping:
1) Not as expendable as spider mines i.e. fewer are on the field. (Worse)
2) Can hit both air and ground units (including workers) but dont deal much splash damage. (Trade off)
3) Mines dont take out each other but deal FF which just like spider mines could potentially result in mine drags. (Same)

4) Can be burrowed/unburrowed as many times as we want unlike spider mines i.e can relocate and can be manually detonated. (Better - although it sounds far too familiar to a burrowed baneling)
5) Built from the factory and not laid from another unit. (Worse)

This unit seems to be on the right path of providing a tool that offers somewhat compensation for a "mech" composition (And other compositions). Although it's hard to find that sweet-spot. On one hand they can be game breaking i.e. far too efficient for its cost, but on the other they can be too weak to be even used (+ detection and some cheap units to clear them out). The main problem I see with widow mines is that they take away supply from the main army where in a game of deathballs, this is very detrimental.

So there needs to be a fine line in whether widow mines forgo being a unit and rather become an ability on a certain unit OR atleast be 0.5/1 supply if it were to be a separate unit. Being an ability would be far more easier to balance than being a separate "suicide" unit. Then there is the problem of being similar to a baneling or having a high chance of becoming a niche unit and i.e. role specific such as mineral line drops while being totally forgotten in the late game.

[image loading]

// More then it meets the eye! //


Battle Hellions - I think this is the best idea so far from Blizzard. In the context of TvP, the P arsenal for one has many ways of vaporising the "tank buffer" hence hellions, especially in the form of colossus (unlike TvP in BW). By allowing hellions to transform into "battle mode" where it gains 50% Hp, a shorter range compensated by a wider cone AOE attack at the cost of its movement speed being almost halved is great (Tradeoffs exist). It can handle a little better against chargelots and survive a little longer against the brunt of the Ps firepower. However in TvZ, hellions could be far too good as noted by DK in the latest patch notes.

The idea of having either a hellion or battle hellions being produced in the factory I think is not a good choice given vikings come out of starports in flight mode (it's like having the ability to make them come out in ground mode incase the starport is camped by enemy vikings). Unless the latter is also changed, I think hellions should be produced the way they are now (normal mode), but having their battle mode upgradeable is a good thing as it will decrease their effectiveness in the early game.



Proposals

For those who have read this far and with most of the bases roughly covered, these are my proposals to make "mech" play viable and bring in interesting gameplay dynamics to SC2 ridden by streamlined play.

Proposal 1 - Tweaking the Battle Hellion + Widow mine

1) Make hellions become a true spiritual successor of the "vulture" by scrapping the idea of widow mines as separate "suicide" units but rather an upgradeable ability of the hellion. Which each hellion will have 2 or 3 (numbers can always be tweaked) of these mines.

2) Base damage of the hellions are slightly buffed in return for no pre-igniter upgrade. The pre-igniter upgrade is replaced by "battle mode" upgrade.

3) Both of the upgrades can be researched before armory at the techlab. The widow mine upgrade for instance will be expensive (150/150 or long upgrade time - numbers can always be tweaked) so that it doesn't enter far too early in the game.

4) Because spider mines weren't a supply based unit but rather an ability, it had to be easily countered for the kind of damage it did while losing the ability to relocate or be manually detonated. It was a mini nuke that could be completely negated, backfire or bring huge rewards. With detection, a short trigger range (range 1) and somewhat long detonation time (had to pop up first for a 1sec, move to the designated target ~2sec then detonate meant it gave the opponent an opportunity to actually kill the mines before it got to them or micro with just enough time to mitigate the damage).

With that in mind, the Widow mines will be changed from a unit that takes up factory time/supply/cost with the ability to relocate/manually-detonate to instead becoming an ability that deals high single damage (+small splash) dealing GtG/GtA damage that has all the downsides of the spidermine (short trigger range, delayed activation/detonation time, not relocateable, friendly fire).

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
First and foremost, the unit and the design concept of mines synergises very well. Hellions can roam around the map very quickly, allowing for the T player to setup mine fields easily and quickly instead of having a single separate unit that has to walk across the map to its desired location. However because it's an upgrade, you cannot just start laying mine fields on the map but are rather left with the choice of:

[quote]Do I want to get mines first? or battle mode first? or forgo those upgrades and prepare for siege mode? get a single rect/tech lab? or 2 tech labs? or make 4 hellions specifically for short term map control?[quote]

So it allows players to either commit to hellions for the long term (much more useful than just pre-igniter upgraded hellions), or use them for a short term specific uses. With the two upgrade options it makes the hellions much more dynamic than what they are as of now.

With regards to widow mines, I think it fits perfectly in SC2 because of the unit relationships between ground/air units. In BW, the ground units were normally separated from air units (air units dealt either weak damage to ground or had no ability to attack ground units) meaning that the interaction between the two type of units were very rare outside of a few exceptions. Only in the lategame we would see late game air units actually influence ground units in the form of BCs/Carriers etc. However this has changed with SC2 where units such as the banshee/voidrays/oracle/viper have more effect on the ground units than its predecessors (which for the early part of the game made the game much more volatile). So having mines being able to hit air compensates for the sudden rise of AtG units prevalent in SC2 atleast for the Terran race.


Proposal 2 - Buffing the Siege Tank

Option (1) - Keep the stats the same but make it cost 25 less gas and/or down to 2 supply from 3.
Option (2) - Keep the cost/supply the same but make it deal an extra +5 to armoured and/or a further +15 to massive. (Numbers can obviously be tweaked)
Option (3) - Keep the cost/supply the same but make it deal an all around 50~60 damage (Numbers can obviously be tweaked) and/or minus -15 to light.
Or a combination of the options.

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
Siege tanks are the joke of SC2 universe these days. A unit that once defined the Terran race has all but fallen to becoming a unit close to extinction (too many predators for the poor ol tank). In the WoL:Beta, it was actually quite fearsome since it dealt 60 damage to everything. But it was heavily nerfed due to mainly how crude the maps were designed back in those days e.g. steppes of war. Lost temple's ledge next to the natural expansion did not help the unit either as it got further nerfed (dealing less damage to light and bonus to armored). Only in TvT does it get to show a glimpse of its former glory yet most of the time it gets stood down by the next big thing in SC2, the marauders.

But the days of being able to walk to your opponents natural in 5 seconds, or hitting their natural from a ledge/or your expansion are long gone. The nerfs that were imposed due to the maps should be lifted thanks to great map designs nowadays and the tanks should regain its awesome firepower given all of its set-backs.

Tanks enable "mech" play and further promotes positional play NOT deathballs. So the above are a few suggestions to buff the tank. Either allow T to have more of them (hence being able to spread them around the map) or buff its damage so that its firepower is actually scarier than say a stimmed MMM ball.


Proposal 3 - The "new" Warhound

1) Remove the thor. The design of the unit simply does not give the Factory any "general" GtA options. It's too bulky and feel out of place amongst other units. Not to mention the thor having a useless energy bar and never used 250mm strike cannon ability.

Update: or redesign it as a GtG "super" unit that only one can be made e.g. mothership. Requires the fusion core and 250mm cannon redesigned to an AOE damage dealing ability as it was originally intended to be.

2) Bring in the "new" warhound unit, which will be become the GtA option from the factory and an alternative anti air option to vikings. This means that players have two options (outside the marine) when looking for an anti air tool e.g. the GtA warhound with ground mobility only or the AtA viking with superior mobility due to being able to fly. However the former requires the armoury and the latter requires a starport.

3) The warhound will have the following specs (all numbers can be tweaked):
Attribute: Armored, Mechanical
Cost: 150minerals/50gas with a build time of 40 sec.
Supply: Either 2 or 3.
Hitpoints: 125 (if 2 supply) and 150 (if 3 supply) with 1 base armor (+1).
Speed: 2.5~2.7
Attack: Ground = 15~20 (+1) // (1.5s) // (range 6) -- Railgun or an autogun/chaingun mounted on one arm
Air attack = 15~20 (+2) // (1.5s) // (range 9) -- Dual(?) Missile Rack on the other arm (update: could be a walker or hover vehicle like the diamond back?)
Ability: Haywire Missiles. This ability can be researched at the techlab with an armory requirement. It allows either:

Option (1): A cool down based ability (15~30 second cooldown) that deals AOE damage to the selected area in the air with a range of 7(?). Animation would be multiple small missiles all fired at the same time to the targeted area where once the missiles are launched the warhound is free to move. There should be enough time for very fast players to micro their units out of the incoming missiles.
or
Option (2): Allow the player to toggle between two different types of missiles. The base missile will deal single target damage, while the other type will allow the warhound to unleash a weaker splash damage to the target unit and its surrounding units. (OR a Valkyrie type attack - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Valkyrie with reduced range from 9 to say 6~7)

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
Unlike the previous warhound (a GtG unit with no air attack) which was far too good all round that effectively overshadowed the tank and generally made things on the ground look stupid, the new warhound is designed with two things in mind. Firstly, being the general GtA unit from the factory and secondly allowing the tank to be the main GtG damage dealing unit from the factory. What this does is shift the emphasis on the tanks as the core composition of a "mech" force while becoming a sidekick to protect the tanks from the air (excelling at this) and somewhat from enemy ground units (average at this).

However the warhound will not supercede the viking because going with vikings for anti air means going with the starport tech which then result in the player having access to medivacs/banshees and ravens. The player who chooses to go with warhounds via armory means no air tech til late game. Both units have their pros and cons but the main difference is mobility where one is stuck on the ground with slightly better anti air capability vs the other which can roam around the map ignoring/abusing any terrain features (also specific advantages such as being not affected by Viper's binding cloud).


Bonus Proposal - Seeker Missile

1) Change the Seeker Missile from doing direct splash damage upon contact. Instead of making the spell a hit (not so terrible damage even if it hits) or a miss (waste of 125 energy and the raven potentially), change the spell into always hitting the unit. Now below with the next point.
2) Instead of doing direct splash damage upon contact, the targeted enemy will be always be hit (the acceleration will speed up vs time) but once the target is hit, it will trigger a 10 sec timer. Once the 10 second timer goes off, it deals splash damage.
3) Buff the range to 7~8 and energy requirement to 100. The graphics animation would be the earlier build of the widow mine launched mid way with its 4 legs slowly rotating outwards til it latches onto the enemy.

Why?
+ Show Spoiler +
Although this has no relevance to "mech" play, I'd like to bring attention to a spell that is faily difficult to balance as Blizzard has never seemed to find the sweetspot for. The thought occurred to me when writing up this post is that the Ravens a spiritual successor to the science vessels should be looked at to make it a flying support unit that oversees its ground troops. As with the current metagame, it is still regarded as a one trick pony (125 energy requirement) where most Ravens would die after casting its hunter seeker missile at its enemy (range 6! and FF splash). On top of that, it requires a ton of upgrades and gas. Also there is no way for the enemy to react and hope that the ravens die before getting their bombs off (100 damage splash? or a high single damage with low splash damage).

Then we look at the Science vessel which earned its worth depending on how carefully it was used from mid to late game, especially in TvZ. It would become that core unit which could aid different positions/battle fronts by flying around and casting spells that did not outright kill units (Irridate) which the hunter seeker missiles do. However it was never an offensive unit that could outright win you the game by massing. It also didn't require a load of upgrades either other than being higher up in the tech three via Science Facility.
So clearly Ravens could if tweaked fulfil that role the Science vessels had. As of the current metagame, it is merely fulfilling niche roles such as PDD for 1-1-1 against TvP, late late late game TvT air battles, used as a detector etc.

The main problem with the Raven is the hunter seeker missile. It's like turning the raven into a big flying baneling i.e. an one trick pony. The proposal above changes this to having the raven always having 100% chance of hitting their target. Although the idea of separating the unit targeted by the old SM sounded cool on paper, in reality it would rarely hit anything (e.g a muta flock). So instead it always hits but the catch is the 10sec timer. Just like Irradiate, the unit targeted will die eventually (unless its a high hitpoint unit like the ultralisk) but it gives enough time for the enemy to react and mitigate the damage (by splitting or killing its own unit) or cast its crucial spells before dying. It also allows some opportunities for the affected unit e.g. say a corrupter with the seeker missile attached can fly into the ravens/other units to deal splash damage.
By changing the seeker missile, ravens can be alot more viable than what see are used to seeing still to this day. If cared with the right micro (and accumulated with time in number), they can be the back bone of the lategame T in matchups like TvZ where ghosts with their pre-nerfed snipe damage use to fulfil. The new seeker missiles can take out essential Z targets like blood lords, vipers etc.

Funnily enough the idea was inspired by the first widow mine concept from blizzard.




Conclusion

Well that is it folks. That is alot to digest and im quite sure I have missed out on a few details here and there. I hope this gives you the reader a better understanding of the puzzles that are missing in SC2 "mech" play and hence show what it is required to make such strategy work. Unlike the units from the barracks, units from the factory and the starport suffer from incoherency and lack much flexibility to stay as a standalone techtree like its predecessor. Out of all the issues, the main one out of them all is the issue caused by the viking and its role as the key anti air unit which complicates the idea of bringing back a goliath like unit.

So Ive taken great lengths to suggest several proposals that bring better syngery/unit dynamics and options for the Terran player when exploring the factory/starport tech, one of them being the "new" warhound as the general GtA unit from the factory. The ideas proposed isn't flashy nor groundbreaking but we all have to remember that the fundamentals should be fulfilled first before implementing cool looking gimmicks. My proposals are all about creating a long inter-winded story between unit relationships which Id assume translate into a much much interesting game of SC between the players.

Id love to hear what the community thinks about the above so please do discuss away!

Note: Remember the numbers can always change. Its the design concept that is the most important! and first time starting a thread so be nice
Ultrablue
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland31 Posts
September 16 2012 10:27 GMT
#2
You really seem to know whats the issue. I like the post and agree with the changes you've put out there.
RoyMadman
Profile Joined April 2012
United States18 Posts
September 18 2012 01:59 GMT
#3
Really good post I agree with most of this. Thanks for putting so much time and thought into it.
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
September 18 2012 03:00 GMT
#4
could you define what GtA and GtG means?
You need to introduce the terms before using them.
moo...for DRG
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
September 18 2012 03:01 GMT
#5
i like this post and i was thinking that since there's a lot of new upgrades coming out and the hellion being able to transform in and out of battle mode and new units i want to suggest that the sige tank get's it one ability called Gauss Rounds which when researched from a tech lab and armory requirement would allow players to refit the sige tank's 120 shock cannon rounds with 120 Gauss rounds which ingores the immortals harden shields but it takes 2 seconds to refit, and has a 5 second cool down and 2 less damage than the original rounds and players can turn the rounds on and off as there can not be any auto cast on it.

I think that the hellion can use some mines cause that would really help with tvz when ur trying to stall the zerg from having a lot of expansions and he can just mass lings or roaches and makes u back off.
I rather like the seeker missile idea a lot. i just wish it would do more of a AOE damage than what it already does.

I think that terran needs a new mech unit that allows it to be mobile(not as fast as the hellion or slow as the thor but in between) and has a armament of missiles(like the Valkyrie but a ground version)
[image loading]

something like this and i know it's from star wars but that's as close as i can get with what i'm trying to think in my head. and once it runs out of missiles it has to return to a nearest CC to restock and can be upgraded to have a higher missile capacity and can attack both GtA and GtG. This is just what i think but we could really use something like this.

GtA= Ground To Air and GtG= Ground to ground
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
September 18 2012 03:26 GMT
#6
Humph.
Good effort, but let´s be honest:
You propose return of vulture+mine combo, or reverting one or more tank changes from BW to WoL or a goliath( with splash damage).

And that is why none of these will ever get implemented in SC2.
The Viking coming out of the Starport is in my opinion a huge part of balance that justifies other stuff being stronger than intuitive.
Other than that HotS tanks already get more damage from attack upgrades than in WoL. We´ll see if that´s enough buff.
Another good change would be to take the Haywire missiles and slap them on the Thor. Cannonspell is silly, energy is a massive weakspot against Protoss, an useful cooldown spell would be a huge improvement for the Thor(in TvP) and mech.
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 03:34:25
September 18 2012 03:33 GMT
#7
Sorry, but I don't like these suggestions.

First of all, it gives the Hellion too much utility, especially as the game progresses. You should have to choose between fragile map coverage and immobile Chargelot slaughtering, it shouldn't be wrapped up into one unit. IMO, the Widow mine should be given to another unit, or should become more mobile and less costly, in return for becoming more fragile. If this put it higher in the tech tree, then the BH should become more accessible, because frankly, mech NEEDS a way to deal with Chargelots.

Second of all, I used to think the same thing as you: That the Warhound should become mech's GtA unit, while the Thor becomes the "buster" (although you seem to have scrapped the Thor instead). But the AA gap exists for a very good reason, and Blizzard likes it as it is, so I don't think it will change.
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
September 18 2012 03:51 GMT
#8
I strongly believe that the best solution is to swap the AA against light of the thor and the haywire missiles of the Warhound. It makes sense both lore-wise and gameplay-wise.

Basically, give the warhound a nerfed version of the javelin missles with 7-8 range and an ok ground attack (let's say 15, or 2x8), and the thor will get haywire missles. However, it should not be autocast. Instead, you can give it say 75 dmg and 1 minute cooldown, but manual cast.

Also remove 250MM cannons and the energy bar.
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
September 18 2012 03:51 GMT
#9
I absolutely love pretty much ever idea you just proposed. This write up needs to be sent to blizzard so they can have a good long look at it.
i also really like the idea of putting the haywire missiles on the thor.. you could probably leave the warhound out of the game if you did that too.. at face value I think these changes would make mech incredibly powerful --the way it should be-- yet still position dependent. Tempests and possible carrier changes make the matchup interesting against protoss, zergs new units make it pretty interesting in that matchup too.. well have to wait and see. Overall great article.
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 04:13:03
September 18 2012 04:09 GMT
#10
On September 16 2012 18:55 YyapSsap wrote:

Those are:
a) Firepower of the tank is too weak hence controlling space is much harder with a few number of well placed tanks and even in direct fights the firepower is simply not there. This is simply a balance problem as we want tanks as the "core" unit in a Mech composition.
b) GtA is too weak and susceptible to armoured flying units. Thors aren't so effective as goliaths since they are more of a "general" anti air unit compared to the Thor meaning they can handle all air units fairly ok. There needs to be a general GtA unit (since tanks are the general GtG) without having to rely on marines or vikings that require starport tech.
c) The lack of mobility is not compensated by spider mines. Although hellions are as mobile, there are no ways of protecting runbys or flanks due to the immobility of tanks and thors.
d) Thors and Hellions do not buffer tanks well enough. I think most of the problem lies within the fact that things just dont die fast enough due to the lack of firepower from the tanks.


a) Firepower of the tank is, as you noted, a matter of numbers. Blizzard has tried higher damage for tanks during the WoL beta. Improved pathing means more clumped units while on the move, so tank damage is balanced accordingly.

b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.

c) Of course mech lacks mobility. I thought that's what makes mech, mech? (all those BW-nostalgic posts) Do you seriously suggest a certain unit composition should have no weakness whatsoever?

d) This is probably the only point I can agree with, although I have seen creative workarounds such as using terrains or bunkers/planetaries. And this is one area Blizzard explicitly stated to be fixed by battle hellions. (Remains to be seen)
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-18 07:38:27
September 18 2012 07:37 GMT
#11
hmmm.. the thor is more like a super obese marauder that learnt how to aim his rocket launcher upwards, not a goliath on steroids.

- Giving the hellion mines would make them extremely efficient for the cost of 100 minerals, in fact potentially the most cost efficient unit in the game, this worked out in BW (75 mins for a vulter and 3 mines) as a pure coincidence, since there were alot more cost inbalances when trading armies but the overall picture was balanced. This might not work out in sc2 since things are alot more balanced when trading cost for cost.

- Your new warhound idea sounds really good, it would give mech more anti air rather than vikings that can easily be AOEed down, theres also that problem if the anti air would activate vs collosi. There will also be alot of complaint if terran has another unit cut, but this seems typical for any change on blizzard forums.
AlmondCS
Profile Joined November 2011
33 Posts
September 18 2012 07:58 GMT
#12
i think your analysis is spot on. and your warhound idea actually sounds quite good
Kaiyotic
Profile Joined October 2011
United States90 Posts
September 18 2012 08:09 GMT
#13
I feel like medivac+widow mine should work, though I'd rather have hellions be able to load widow mines than to be able to generate them. Tweaking the hellion into the vulture is something they're actively trying to avoid anyways.

I do agree with your tank and warhound suggestions- I always wondered why there wasn't some sort of AA Missile Truck type unit for Terran, and I think the warhound could be made to fit that role.

I don't think we need to get rid of the thor, because the splash anti-air is something the other units don't have. I would say to make the thor air attack a little stronger and the ground attack a little weaker: this way, there's still a reason to get it, but lets tanks do what tanks do like you suggested but keep them from being uncounterable when you mass them against protoss. I wouldn't mind energy/strike cannon being removed as a result since immortals should be then be able to hold off pure thor armies fairly efficiently.
Rain: Idra's face is scary
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
September 18 2012 08:17 GMT
#14
On September 18 2012 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.


This. The gap was intentional and is necessitated by the marine. If there were another mid-game AA unit, the Viking would have to be rebalanced, perhaps even redesigned. I don't understand why people want the Goliath when the Goliath is already in the game, as the Viking.
Pusekatten
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway234 Posts
September 18 2012 08:24 GMT
#15
I want to say one thing that I think is important to understand. The warhound benefits from the same upgrades that the helion, tank and thor does. Making it ideal to replace the marauder when going mech, thus makimg it so that the terran only need 4 upgrades instead off 6.
I would how ever agree that if the mech ground and air upgrades got combined, the warhound should not be in the game.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
September 18 2012 09:20 GMT
#16
On September 18 2012 17:17 Crawdad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.


This. The gap was intentional and is necessitated by the marine. If there were another mid-game AA unit, the Viking would have to be rebalanced, perhaps even redesigned. I don't understand why people want the Goliath when the Goliath is already in the game, as the Viking.


It's not necessitated by the marine. If I want to go mech I shouldn't have to get marines.

Infact in all the matchups I make 3 marines to put in a bunker and never make anymore. They're useless to the mech playstyle.

I love the OP by the way, I hope you post this on the battle.net forums.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
September 18 2012 09:54 GMT
#17
On September 18 2012 12:26 Mataza wrote:
Humph.
Good effort, but let´s be honest:
You propose return of vulture+mine combo, or reverting one or more tank changes from BW to WoL or a goliath( with splash damage).

And that is why none of these will ever get implemented in SC2.
The Viking coming out of the Starport is in my opinion a huge part of balance that justifies other stuff being stronger than intuitive.
Other than that HotS tanks already get more damage from attack upgrades than in WoL. We´ll see if that´s enough buff.
Another good change would be to take the Haywire missiles and slap them on the Thor. Cannonspell is silly, energy is a massive weakspot against Protoss, an useful cooldown spell would be a huge improvement for the Thor(in TvP) and mech.


On the outside it looks like that but it isn't. Hellions aren't vultures nor the proposed widow mines being spider mines. They share similiar "traits" or "concepts" but will effectively produce somewhat different results than its predecessor.

If we follow your logic, the same can be said for the viper (defier), swarmhost (lurker) etc. Yet they are quite different enough to get the feeling that they are quite new.

What I point out in the OP is that there are key fundamentals within the T mech composition that are missing that should not have been touched. Not the actual units themselves but how the designs behind each mech unit made them synergised with one another as well as with the other tech tree. As long as the basic fundamental roles are fulfilled, "mech" play or rather a strategy based on positional play (by that i mean not dancing around with your deathball) will not work.
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
September 18 2012 10:31 GMT
#18
On September 18 2012 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 18:55 YyapSsap wrote:

Those are:
a) Firepower of the tank is too weak hence controlling space is much harder with a few number of well placed tanks and even in direct fights the firepower is simply not there. This is simply a balance problem as we want tanks as the "core" unit in a Mech composition.
b) GtA is too weak and susceptible to armoured flying units. Thors aren't so effective as goliaths since they are more of a "general" anti air unit compared to the Thor meaning they can handle all air units fairly ok. There needs to be a general GtA unit (since tanks are the general GtG) without having to rely on marines or vikings that require starport tech.
c) The lack of mobility is not compensated by spider mines. Although hellions are as mobile, there are no ways of protecting runbys or flanks due to the immobility of tanks and thors.
d) Thors and Hellions do not buffer tanks well enough. I think most of the problem lies within the fact that things just dont die fast enough due to the lack of firepower from the tanks.


a) Firepower of the tank is, as you noted, a matter of numbers. Blizzard has tried higher damage for tanks during the WoL beta. Improved pathing means more clumped units while on the move, so tank damage is balanced accordingly.

b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.

c) Of course mech lacks mobility. I thought that's what makes mech, mech? (all those BW-nostalgic posts) Do you seriously suggest a certain unit composition should have no weakness whatsoever?

d) This is probably the only point I can agree with, although I have seen creative workarounds such as using terrains or bunkers/planetaries. And this is one area Blizzard explicitly stated to be fixed by battle hellions. (Remains to be seen)


a) Remember steppes of war? You have to relive 2010 to see why 60 damage tanks for example wouldn't quite have worked. Maps like Lost temple, metalopolis etc were horrible compared to what we have today. You argue about improved pathing, but this gives more reward for those players who actually splits his army in multiple battlefronts rather than relying on their ball of death along with 1A click. We want to dissemble deathballs enough somewhat that SC2 should be 50/50 in terms of deathball and positional play.

b) The option is there. But does that mean its possible for someone going deep into the factory tech want to get marines or vikings for that extra AA when they share completely different upgrades/production buildings? Its all situational but all have their pros/cons that its hard to say one will supercede the other. With regards to strategies beginning with marines I dont think anything will change (not sure what you are arguing about here?).

And how is the warhound i proposed that awesome unit? you mean generally being good at the anti-air job but lacking in ground firepower? it also requires the armoury to get meaning you really have to commit to these units. All I can think of is Bio vs Mech being much more dynamic (and equal instead of mech being VERY prone to not only mobility abuses but even lacking in firepower) than what we see today with more interesting bio mech compositions.

c) Please read that thread by Falling which describes what "mech" is. The problem with the mech composition is that its FAR too fragile while lacking in firepower (especially vs P) and mobility. Theres a reason why Pros dont use mech often (only in mirror its picking up trend somewhat) but MMM is considered the far better composition. Even with mines, it magically wont fix the mobility problem but make it less severe than what we see today. This composition still does have weaknesses, I mean Blizzard has given players so many ways of countering the tank (even in HOTS e.g. tempests, vipers) which is the core of mech that I dont see any problems with this. You point would make sense if this composition was something viable as MMM in all matchups.

d) A player going with such route shouldn't have to rely on so many static defenses and buildings. The only other strategy I can think of is BL/infestor with mass spines (only against P) but BLs are way more mobile than mech and do a better job at this point in time. PFs/bunkers etc, Ive read threads on those but to me those felt like people were grasping at straws to make something not viable "viable" especially vs P. Sure turrets/sensor towers make sense but when you have to rely alot on these static defenses/buildings to say make a headon engagement even then theres clearly something wrong.
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
September 18 2012 10:35 GMT
#19
On September 18 2012 16:37 MasterCynical wrote:
hmmm.. the thor is more like a super obese marauder that learnt how to aim his rocket launcher upwards, not a goliath on steroids.

- Giving the hellion mines would make them extremely efficient for the cost of 100 minerals, in fact potentially the most cost efficient unit in the game, this worked out in BW (75 mins for a vulter and 3 mines) as a pure coincidence, since there were alot more cost inbalances when trading armies but the overall picture was balanced. This might not work out in sc2 since things are alot more balanced when trading cost for cost.

- Your new warhound idea sounds really good, it would give mech more anti air rather than vikings that can easily be AOEed down, theres also that problem if the anti air would activate vs collosi. There will also be alot of complaint if terran has another unit cut, but this seems typical for any change on blizzard forums.


I agree with the first, but its all about the numbers (balance issue). You could end up with 2 or even one mine only, or hellions start costing 125 minerals etc. HOTS is a new expansion, so with balance we are back to square 1 seeing as the unit relationships that were set in stone in WoL has changed. Id not be surprised if some of the old units get buffs or even nerfs.

The second issue you raise is a technical one I suppose, I guess theres always a way of stopping such things from happening. And I doubt many people would be too upset if the thor was removed. If a unit like the infestor was removed, then you may have a case as its one of the most recognised units in SC2.

And thanks, I guess your more right with regards to the thor being more of super obese marauder than a goliath :p Guess Ill update the OP.
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
September 18 2012 10:58 GMT
#20
On September 18 2012 17:17 Crawdad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2012 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.


This. The gap was intentional and is necessitated by the marine. If there were another mid-game AA unit, the Viking would have to be rebalanced, perhaps even redesigned. I don't understand why people want the Goliath when the Goliath is already in the game, as the Viking.


Vikings aren't goliaths. They are a flying unit. They dont buffer tanks or any other ground units. You have to get the starport tech which is the most important part. What if in a different world, I didn't have to get vikings and stop at 1-1, instead of going all the way to 1-1-1? If I stop at 1-1 at the current metagame, Im left with the marine and the thor. The latter is ridiculous to get early game or even mid game and mean alot of sacrifices in my tech/upgrades etc. Most opt for marines but unless one goes Bio, making lots of marines set back players who want explore other tech options than Bio. The flexibility simply isn't there.

The viking does not have to redesigned (maybe tweaked as balance in HOTS is still in the infant stages). They share one similiar role and that is anti air, with very distinctive differences (one flies and the other doesnt, one access starport tech the other gets armory, haywire missile ability etc).

1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 285
StarCraft: Brood War
Backho 175
Dewaltoss 129
Soma 50
sorry 50
ajuk12(nOOB) 27
Shine 16
Dota 2
ODPixel570
XcaliburYe294
Fuzer 96
League of Legends
JimRising 711
Super Smash Bros
Westballz14
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor129
Other Games
summit1g6482
ROOTCatZ70
SortOf48
Trikslyr21
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2778
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH267
• practicex 36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2130
League of Legends
• Lourlo1642
• Stunt600
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
2h 24m
Epic.LAN
4h 24m
CSO Contender
9h 24m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 2h
Online Event
1d 8h
Esports World Cup
3 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.