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On September 18 2012 18:20 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 17:17 Crawdad wrote:On September 18 2012 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
b) Without having to rely on marines or vikings, or on top of having the options of marines or vikings? What would happen if you take such an awesome army that doesn't need marines, then add marines to it? (see: 1/1/1) Marines are No. 1 all around unit in the game already, and almost all terran strategies begin with marines. Also remember that blizzard wants both bio and mech to be viable, including against each other.
This. The gap was intentional and is necessitated by the marine. If there were another mid-game AA unit, the Viking would have to be rebalanced, perhaps even redesigned. I don't understand why people want the Goliath when the Goliath is already in the game, as the Viking. It's not necessitated by the marine. If I want to go mech I shouldn't have to get marines. Infact in all the matchups I make 3 marines to put in a bunker and never make anymore. They're useless to the mech playstyle. I love the OP by the way, I hope you post this on the battle.net forums.
Noted 
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I posted on Blizzard's HOTS forums on something similar.
But I like your idea too, here's an alagam with mine.
Warhound's rail gun is AA only until sieged where it'll then receive a range bonus in addition to GtG attack.
The transformed warhound could look like a turret
I was inspired how well the extreme range of the Tempests synergies with phoneixes causing pure phoneixes builds to be slowly cut down by lesser phoneix numbers w/ tempests.
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I would much rather just have the warhound watered down and have haywire a castable-only range 8 AA splash (something like 5% of main target damage in 1radius) missle upgrade.
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On September 18 2012 18:54 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 12:26 Mataza wrote:
Humph.
Good effort, but let´s be honest:
You propose return of vulture+mine combo, or reverting one or more tank changes from BW to WoL or a goliath( with splash damage).
And that is why none of these will ever get implemented in SC2.
The Viking coming out of the Starport is in my opinion a huge part of balance that justifies other stuff being stronger than intuitive.
Other than that HotS tanks already get more damage from attack upgrades than in WoL. We´ll see if that´s enough buff.
Another good change would be to take the Haywire missiles and slap them on the Thor. Cannonspell is silly, energy is a massive weakspot against Protoss, an useful cooldown spell would be a huge improvement for the Thor(in TvP) and mech. On the outside it looks like that but it isn't. Hellions aren't vultures nor the proposed widow mines being spider mines. They share similiar "traits" or "concepts" but will effectively produce somewhat different results than its predecessor. If we follow your logic, the same can be said for the viper (defier), swarmhost (lurker) etc. Yet they are quite different enough to get the feeling that they are quite new. What I point out in the OP is that there are key fundamentals within the T mech composition that are missing that should not have been touched. Not the actual units themselves but how the designs behind each mech unit made them synergised with one another as well as with the other tech tree. As long as the basic fundamental roles are fulfilled, "mech" play or rather a strategy based on positional play (by that i mean not dancing around with your deathball) will not work.
The viper has abduct a sufficiently new spell(basically from Dota, but it doesn´t count). Likewise the swarmhost is sufficiently different from the lurker as it doesn´t have splash(key aspect) and can actually lay siege to a base. The lurker was fat and had 6 range. It could stop you from exiting a base, but it could never threaten you inside.
Now your ideas are uninspired in comparison. SC2 developers look for new and exciting first and then make it work(by making it like bw). It´s the other direction.
Factory raider unit + mine laying isn´t a new idea.
You said "Make hellions become a true spiritual successor of the 'vulture'", so yes, you are trying to reintroduce BW.
Changing WoL Tank to BW specs, again, same thing.
Your Warhound idea? Remove Thor, make a unit with almost the same specs as goliath, 6 anti ground range, 9 anti air range by default. With splashdamge haywire missiles. You tell me it´s not a goliath with splash?
The widow mine for example is much more defensive than the spidermine. Because it is NOT inside a 4 movementspeed unit that can put it right under the enemy. It has to walk defenseless where it want to be planted. That´s a difference in how it is used. The rest is a numbers game by Blizz.
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On September 18 2012 19:58 YyapSsap wrote:
The viking does not have to redesigned (maybe tweaked as balance in HOTS is still in the infant stages). They share one similiar role and that is anti air, with very distinctive differences (one flies and the other doesnt, one access starport tech the other gets armory, haywire missile ability etc).
Well, what would Warhounds have to counter? The things that Vikings don't already destroy. So, they would probably slaughter Mutalisks, do well against Phoenixes and Interceptors, and do okay against Vikings. Basically, they would be more accessible Thors, yes? This idea is okay, because it gives the Void Ray more of a purpose, but I don't like the idea of scrapping the Thor. It should just lose its GtA and become a powerhouse.
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God-tier thread. I agree with all of it.
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the goliath is not needed in any way, shape or form, because, apart from the required airupgrades, the viking is a much better unit for sc2, how would a goliath even approach broodlord/infestor/viper? vipers make it so it cannot shoot, infestors fungal them and broodlings will also block their way and draw friendly fire from the tanks...
and against protoss? to hit colossi you would need them in the front row, where the battlehellions are, and you will not hit tempests at all because the entire protoss army stands between you and them, and carriers? well you will not see them since mech is not viable in tvp sc2.
i do not like your "new warhound" for the mentioned reasons, plus massable units should not have an AoE-ability at all because you should control your army instead, not to mention that siegetanks are the AoE.
the idea with the hellions and mines combined was nice (but nothing new)
mech is totally broken in tvp, because tanks get countered by evey protoss unit except the sentry, the warhound in a balanced state was required so mech would not just get overrun, mines and battlehellion will not change that, but the best balancing for the warhound would have been less hp and speed in addition its initial damage nerf, but then it would not be the tankbuster blizzard wanted (and apparently does not need anymore)
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Now how do you buff zerg to deal with the fact that siege tanks and battle hellions will make lings, banes, roaches, and hydras melt away?
Not to say i want them to counter siege tanks. But in sufficient numbers zerg ground armies need to be able to deal with the terran ground army. If siege tanks are too effective against roaches, the bulk of the anti-mech army early on, then how does zerg subsequently kill off the now beefier mech army whose health has been increased by the addition of health to the hellion in battle form. Zerglings are not good against mech. Thors kill lings cost effectively, battle hellions laugh at lings, and tanks do pretty well with support. Hydras have not been buffed pre-hive at all(in fact they've been nerfed because their creep movespeed was reduced to compensate for the hive upgrade) and this means they are still the shitty unit they were in WoL.
Zerg is inadequately equipped to deal with a mech army pre-hive tech if the siege tank gets a buff and this will need to be adressed.
To be clear I'm not saying your ideas are bad. I like the idea of making sc2 more about zone control. But zerg and protoss subsequently NEED to be able to kill siege tank lines. And when I mean need to be able to do it I don't mean late game I mean early game where they've received very few changes if any to deal with what your suggesting.
Also, with the problem of terran needing very few scvs late game, being able to rely on orbital commands for mineral income, how does a zerg or toss combat mass siege tank mech play with much smaller armies?
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A Widow Mine buff (reduced building time and/or cost preferred) and a 250mm Strike Cannons buff (increased range preferred) will go a long way into making mech very well rounded, while still maintaining its immobile core.
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I really like your analysis and agree completely. Unfortunately Blizz will respond with "this makes the game exactly like mech in bw". My response is mech in bw was awesome, but they seem to be hell-bent against moving something back towards BW even if it improves the game.
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Brilliant thread, i agree with most of it but i feel that there can be a different approach to the meching problem. Instead of buffing the units currently there. What about creating a new unit (or changing the warhound) To function as a spellcaster that buffs or assists mech play. So rather then buffing the standard mech, you could end up with a more dynamic style of mech.
Heres some idea's i had along these lines for spells to synergize with mech, more specifically seige tanks.
Name: Enhanced targeting beam
Type: Ability
For: Warhound or whatever replaces the warhound.
Description: Pinpoints the weaknesses in the enemy units. Reducing the armor of the targets by 1 for 20 seconds.
Functionality: The warhound was seen as too strong. Many discussions have generally trended towards the warhound (or whatever replaces it) becoming a spellcaster unit that supports tanks. The way it would function would be a small radius (think about the size of 5 stalkers in a circle). Units that are hit by this have their armor reduced.
Graphically: I picture multiple red laser beams shooting from the warhound(or other unit) Then red crosshairs appearing on these specific targets for 20 seconds.
(has similaritys to corruption but rather then flat damage its an armor decrease also it has an aoe component)
Alternatives: Instead of a armor reduction it could be Damage proliferation. If a unit with this debuff is hit by damage a percentage of the damage is also spread to nearby targets. This effect should work really well with seige tanks etc.
Name: Shock barrage
Type: Ability
For: Warhound, thor or whatever replaces the warhound.
Description: Fires a barrage of shock grenades that slow units in the area for 20 seconds.
Functionality: A channeled spell that is similar to concussive shot but it can be targeted in an area and just fired. This would synergize quite well with the seige tank. You setup your line and when you're about to be engaged you can slow down a certain path so your tanks can possibly get a few more shots off before the distance is closed.
Graphically. it could be similar to the thors strike cannons
Additionally, i remember something a few months back about a placeable smoke cloud to disrupt vision. I think something similar to that could be viable for a (spellcasting) warhound. I'm thinking something similar to the vipers blinding cloud, but instead of reducing the range of the units. Smoke screen could be placed on the units reducing the vision range of units in the cloud to like 6 range or something (i could see this being useful in TvT to allow the terran to move their tanks up).
Not too sure if any of these would be useful or balanced. But rather then just buffing the whole of mech individually. A spellcaster that synergizes with mech could bring out various different plays and the better player would be the player that was great at positioning and had efficient use of their mech boosting spells.
I'm not too sure if the ground to air issue will be too much of a problem. I like the look of widow mines and would love to see how they might "play out" in the ground to air situation combined with vikings/thors it could possibly work out well.
Quick Edit: After re-reading the OP for the 3rd time i may have slightly missunderstood it the first 2 times i read it. (I'm a bit sleepy my brain is quite slow atm lol)
Another edit: just wanted to say I'm really really REALLY excited as to where SC2 could go with HOTS.
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On September 18 2012 20:06 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Warhound's rail gun is AA only until sieged where it'll then receive a range bonus in addition to GtG attack.
The transformed warhound could look like a turret
The more I consider the issue - the more I feel that something like this is the best solution, that has the best chance of satisfying all the requirements and being a cool. useful, well balanced unit.
A vehicle based GtA missle launcher - built from the factory - primarily support unit for tanks.
Unit:
- Ground speed = to tanks
- Only fires GtA missles when seiged (use Haywire Missle animation)
- Time to seige / unseige = to tanks.
- Has avg strength GtG ranged weapon for basic defense against melee units when unseiged
- Unit loses all weapon capabilities durning seige / unseige
Essentially this is a Mobile Missle Turret. This unit will take the place of bringing SCVs to build Missle Turrets on the battlefield. The "micro" of the unit is essentially the same micro and game sense you need to properly position tanks, and
seige / unseige tanks.
The sweet spot to solving all of the requirments lies in a unit sthing like this imo.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I still don't get why people think Mech needs a huge fundamental improvements. Sure it has some major flaws, flaws that kill it in TvP, but lines like this are ridiculous:
Siege tanks are the joke of SC2 universe these days. A unit that once defined the Terran race has all but fallen to becoming a unit close to extinction
What the hell is this? Hydra's are a joke. Reapers in WoL. Carriers, maybe BCs. Void Rays certainly have a case.
But tanks!?
They completely dominate one whole matchup (TvT), and are important in all but the most extreme bio builds in another (TvZ) and even at their lowest moment (TvP) they still have some key roles in one and two base play.
So please. Have some respect for truly terrible units. Tanks are great.
And onto mech.
Well, its completely viable in TvT and TvZ, and becoming more so in both everyday. Admittedly, its absolutely terrible vP.
I do think that Widow Mines and Battlehellions need tweaks to make them more viable (imo its as simple as making Widow Mines 1 supply and BattleHellions instantly available to transform at Armoury instead of being an upgrade).
But to suggest that on top of already significant buffs to mech (which also includes a small siege tank damage buff with upgrades), on top of it being an already viable and powerful strategy, we need more improvements seem maddening to me.
For one thing, it would completely kill bio play, across the board.
And while you have partially addressed this by giving 3 options, people need to realise that suggest a 5th/6th (if you include battlehellions) unit to be build from a factory that is necessary for mech compositions will reduce tank count of mech, or of any strategy, which is supposed to be the key unit anyway. Adding something else which is needed will just dilute mech down further, almost irregardless of what kind of unit it is.
So for my suggestion, well, just leave it alone. Preferably Blizzard will give us older maps which we can truly compare mech on. But even aside from that, I think just playing HotS and trying mech should be enough for now. Terran's could do it before. Why now suddenly that it is improved, mech is terrible I have no idea.
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On September 19 2012 03:04 MCDayC wrote:I still don't get why people think Mech needs a huge fundamental improvements. Sure it has some major flaws, flaws that kill it in TvP, but lines like this are ridiculous: Show nested quote +Siege tanks are the joke of SC2 universe these days. A unit that once defined the Terran race has all but fallen to becoming a unit close to extinction What the hell is this? Hydra's are a joke. Reapers in WoL. Carriers, maybe BCs. Void Rays certainly have a case. But tanks!? They completely dominate one whole matchup (TvT), and are important in all but the most extreme bio builds in another (TvZ) and even at their lowest moment (TvP) they still have some key roles in one and two base play. So please. Have some respect for truly terrible units. Tanks are great. And onto mech. Well, its completely viable in TvT and TvZ, and becoming more so in both everyday. Admittedly, its absolutely terrible vP. I do think that Widow Mines and Battlehellions need tweaks to make them more viable (imo its as simple as making Widow Mines 1 supply and BattleHellions instantly available to transform at Armoury instead of being an upgrade). But to suggest that on top of already significant buffs to mech (which also includes a small siege tank damage buff with upgrades), on top of it being an already viable and powerful strategy, we need more improvements seem maddening to me. For one thing, it would completely kill bio play, across the board. And while you have partially addressed this by giving 3 options, people need to realise that suggest a 5th/6th (if you include battlehellions) unit to be build from a factory that is necessary for mech compositions will reduce tank count of mech, or of any strategy, which is supposed to be the key unit anyway. Adding something else which is needed will just dilute mech down further, almost irregardless of what kind of unit it is. So for my suggestion, well, just leave it alone. Preferably Blizzard will give us older maps which we can truly compare mech on. But even aside from that, I think just playing HotS and trying mech should be enough for now. Terran's could do it before. Why now suddenly that is improved mech is now terrible I have no idea.
A case can be made for what you're saying here. It's very possible that leaving the warhound (in its last incarnation) out of the game, and using / tweaking what's left will make for well balanced, exciting, viable mech play against all matchups.
But this discounts the reality that HoTs is a new expansion - people are expecting new units for their race, and will have issues with Blizz if they don't feel like 'their race' gets as many new units as the other two races.
ie. These people are less likely do buy the expansion if they feel like they're getting enough to justify the expense. That's just the way it is. So adding some additonal unit in is just about inevitable.
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On September 19 2012 03:40 Von wrote:
But this discounts the reality that HoTs is a new expansion - people are expecting new units for their race, and will have issues with Blizz if they don't feel like 'their race' gets as many new units as the other two races.
ie. These people are less likely do buy the expansion if they feel like they're getting enough to justify the expense. That's just the way it is. So adding some additonal unit in is just about inevitable.
I agree that it is inevitable, but the fact that Blizzard removed the Warhound tells us that, when they add a new unit, it will have a specific role to play. It will be balanced. I'm sure that in the pro forum, there are already big ideas being tossed around, and hey, they may be congruent with adding more accessible GtA and turning the Thor into a buster. This certainly seems like the simplest solution. But we will have to wait and see.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 19 2012 03:40 Von wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 03:04 MCDayC wrote:I still don't get why people think Mech needs a huge fundamental improvements. Sure it has some major flaws, flaws that kill it in TvP, but lines like this are ridiculous: Siege tanks are the joke of SC2 universe these days. A unit that once defined the Terran race has all but fallen to becoming a unit close to extinction What the hell is this? Hydra's are a joke. Reapers in WoL. Carriers, maybe BCs. Void Rays certainly have a case. But tanks!? They completely dominate one whole matchup (TvT), and are important in all but the most extreme bio builds in another (TvZ) and even at their lowest moment (TvP) they still have some key roles in one and two base play. So please. Have some respect for truly terrible units. Tanks are great. And onto mech. Well, its completely viable in TvT and TvZ, and becoming more so in both everyday. Admittedly, its absolutely terrible vP. I do think that Widow Mines and Battlehellions need tweaks to make them more viable (imo its as simple as making Widow Mines 1 supply and BattleHellions instantly available to transform at Armoury instead of being an upgrade). But to suggest that on top of already significant buffs to mech (which also includes a small siege tank damage buff with upgrades), on top of it being an already viable and powerful strategy, we need more improvements seem maddening to me. For one thing, it would completely kill bio play, across the board. And while you have partially addressed this by giving 3 options, people need to realise that suggest a 5th/6th (if you include battlehellions) unit to be build from a factory that is necessary for mech compositions will reduce tank count of mech, or of any strategy, which is supposed to be the key unit anyway. Adding something else which is needed will just dilute mech down further, almost irregardless of what kind of unit it is. So for my suggestion, well, just leave it alone. Preferably Blizzard will give us older maps which we can truly compare mech on. But even aside from that, I think just playing HotS and trying mech should be enough for now. Terran's could do it before. Why now suddenly that is improved mech is now terrible I have no idea. A case can be made for what you're saying here. It's very possible that leaving the warhound (in its last incarnation) out of the game, and using / tweaking what's left will make for well balanced, exciting, viable mech play against all matchups. But this discounts the reality that HoTs is a new expansion - people are expecting new units for their race, and will have issues with Blizz if they don't feel like 'their race' gets as many new units as the other two races. ie. These people are less likely do buy the expansion if they feel like they're getting enough to justify the expense. That's just the way it is. So adding some additonal unit in is just about inevitable.
Hmm. Possibly. I'd say that adding 2 new units, Widow Mine and Battlehellion, while providing tweaks to the tank (upgrade increase) reaper (healing and super vision) and the earlier upgrades to the Raven and Battlecruiser (though I'd actually like them to make BCs have 8 damage to ground and air rather than buffing ground to 10 and keeping Air damage at 6, but I digress) would be more than enough.
It'd basically be the same thing that zergs got, 2 new units plus a butload of tweaks, and nobody's complaining about zerg not getting enough.
I guarantee you that if Terran only got Widow Mine and Battlehellions but they were powerful and the tweaks were strong enough for Terran to be really powerful no terran would feel "kinda disapointed" with HotS.
So... yeah. I don't think a new warhound replacement is necessary, not for mech, not making the new expansion, not for anything.
Who's with me?
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Some people want new units just because. Cool new shit is what they say.
I agree with you, MCDayC, that adding more units to mech would only dilute it. Tanks are already 3 supply, mines cost supply, you need ghost and hellions, there is no place for other units and still have "siege lines"
We need better maps and more time to test. Right now, i do think Tanks are fundamentally bad against Protoss simply because most Protoss units take the minimum dmg (35). The better scaling of upgrades don't matter, Stalkers and Colossus were never a problem. Zealots, Immortals, Archons, both Templars are.
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IMO all they have to do is:
1. Make the widow mine usable
2. Change tank damage from 35 (+15 armored) to 40 (+10 armored)
...and possibly:
3. Buff tank damage upgrades so it scales better.
4. Find a way to remove the energy bar from the Thor, or give the Thor an easy way to expend energy.
That's pretty much it. Along with the battle hellion, this pretty much makes (ghost)mech viable.
I personally don't see a burning need to bring in the goliath or redesigned warhound. (JUST MY OPINION!)
Good thread BTW.
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A proposal that's like a little like a goliath, but still different, and even more interesting. I hope they try out this idea.
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The article is straight on point. So long as tanks suck, no mech is possible. Instead, it is just a Protoss-look-a-like a-move army with warhounds.
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EPT
