Re-Designing the Warhound.. ala "Mech" play in SC2 - Page 3

On September 19 2012 04:26 The WingNut wrote:
Buff tank damage upgrades so it scales better.

On September 19 2012 04:26 The WingNut wrote:
IMO all they have to do is:

1. Make the widow mine usable
2. Change tank damage from 35 (+15 armored) to 40 (+10 armored)

...and possibly:
3. Buff tank damage upgrades so it scales better.
4. Find a way to remove the energy bar from the Thor, or give the Thor an easy way to expend energy.


That's pretty much it. Along with the battle hellion, this pretty much makes (ghost)mech viable.

I personally don't see a burning need to bring in the goliath or redesigned warhound. (JUST MY OPINION!)

Good thread BTW.

On September 19 2012 05:06 Novalisk wrote:
I agree with all of your points, especially with what you said about Thors.

How about this:

- Thors can activate a self defensive matrix.
- The d-matrix gives a 200 HP buffer for 20 seconds, has a 20 seconds cooldown, and costs 100 energy. (same as the d-matrix upgrade for BC's in the campaign)
- 250mm Strike Cannons energy cost reduced from 150 to 100 energy.

This will do the following:

- Solves the Thor TvP energy crisis by giving a them a useful spell they can use at all times.
- In TvT, gives Thors a siege-breaking ability at max energy (d-matrix to get in range, then strike cannons on the tanks).
- Makes the only AA Mech unit sturdier, reducing the need for Vikings.

On September 19 2012 05:06 Novalisk wrote:


I agree with all of your points, especially with what you said about Thors.

How about this:

- Thors can activate a self defensive matrix.
- The d-matrix gives a 200 HP buffer for 20 seconds, has a 20 seconds cooldown, and costs 100 energy. (same as the d-matrix upgrade for BC's in the campaign)
- 250mm Strike Cannons energy cost reduced from 150 to 100 energy.

This will do the following:

- Solves the Thor TvP energy crisis by giving a them a useful spell they can use at all times.
- In TvT, gives Thors a siege-breaking ability at max energy (d-matrix to get in range, then strike cannons on the tanks).
- Makes the only AA Mech unit sturdier, reducing the need for Vikings.

I should also say that an improved mech in TvP was a goal many months ago. This may not be the goal in the future if we find that improved mech in TvP makes the game less diverse or is not fun for some other reason. We reserve the right to abandon this goal at any time if it proves to be destructive to the game.

On September 18 2012 20:06 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I posted on Blizzard's HOTS forums on something similar.

But I like your idea too, here's an alagam with mine.

Warhound's rail gun is AA only until sieged where it'll then receive a range bonus in addition to GtG attack.
The transformed warhound could look like a turret

I was inspired how well the extreme range of the Tempests synergies with phoneixes causing pure phoneixes builds to be slowly cut down by lesser phoneix numbers w/ tempests.

On September 19 2012 06:07 MCDayC wrote:


All of this stuff feels like overkill to me, and I haven't found a sufficient reason for why mech needs these MASSIVE changes, rather than the critical tweaks that Blizz have provided.

On September 19 2012 01:14 Naphal wrote:
the goliath is not needed in any way, shape or form, because, apart from the required airupgrades, the viking is a much better unit for sc2, how would a goliath even approach broodlord/infestor/viper? vipers make it so it cannot shoot, infestors fungal them and broodlings will also block their way and draw friendly fire from the tanks...
and against protoss? to hit colossi you would need them in the front row, where the battlehellions are, and you will not hit tempests at all because the entire protoss army stands between you and them, and carriers? well you will not see them since mech is not viable in tvp sc2.

The Goliath may not be needed, but a unit on ground that fulfiles that one basic role of anti air (+it can do whatever it wants on top of that) is required without having to rely on other tech trees.

[b]The second part about bloodlord/infestor/viper, well we dont know yet but one thing for sure is that it wont be just goliaths. Actually I dont know what your trying to point out because the new warhound I proposed will be different to the goliath. The similiarty is that they are a general GtA unit made from the factory. And what you say about such a combo dismantling that mech composition.. it may well be that your right but its something to be tested out. Your reasoning is very absurd because I could say in return that vikings/ghosts sinpe/emp off the vipers giving time for new warhounds (similar GtA range of the viking )to start working on the BLs, it wont just be a viking vs corrupter battle anymore and etc.

You forget that the colssus are ground units. The new warhounds DONT need to attack the colossus but they *can*. Why? because in WoL vikings were used to take them out? why was that? Think about it for a moment. The bottom line is that tanks can take care of the colsuss and appropriately they should be capable given the siege mode disadvantage (setup time), but it doesnt restrict you to just being dependent on a viking like unit to take care of the colssus.

i do not like your "new warhound" for the mentioned reasons, plus massable units should not have an AoE-ability at all because you should control your army instead, not to mention that siegetanks are the AoE.
the idea with the hellions and mines combined was nice (but nothing new)

The haywire missile ability is for "air" only and im thinking a splash raidus of 1. And how does this ability suddenly take control away from your army? To me more micro is required to effectively get the new warhounds worth. The AOE ability can also be dodged giving incentives for the opponent to split/micro out of the ability.

mech is totally broken in tvp, because tanks get countered by evey protoss unit except the sentry, the warhound in a balanced state was required so mech would not just get overrun, mines and battlehellion will not change that, but the best balancing for the warhound would have been less hp and speed in addition its initial damage nerf, but then it would not be the tankbuster blizzard wanted (and apparently does not need anymore)

Not sure you are trying to point out but everyone agrees that we dont need a GtG unit in the factory that is simply a marauder indisguise nor a "tank buster" unit because that was never the problem in the first place.

Its the concept, numbers can always be tweaked. By

On September 18 2012 22:35 Mataza wrote:

The viper has abduct a sufficiently new spell(basically from Dota, but it doesn´t count). Likewise the swarmhost is sufficiently different from the lurker as it doesn´t have splash(key aspect) and can actually lay siege to a base. The lurker was fat and had 6 range. It could stop you from exiting a base, but it could never threaten you inside.

Now your ideas are uninspired in comparison. SC2 developers look for new and exciting first and then make it work(by making it like bw). It´s the other direction.
Factory raider unit + mine laying isn´t a new idea.
You said "Make hellions become a true spiritual successor of the 'vulture'", so yes, you are trying to reintroduce BW.
Changing WoL Tank to BW specs, again, same thing.
Your Warhound idea? Remove Thor, make a unit with almost the same specs as goliath, 6 anti ground range, 9 anti air range by default. With splashdamge haywire missiles. You tell me it´s not a goliath with splash?

The widow mine for example is much more defensive than the spidermine. Because it is NOT inside a 4 movementspeed unit that can put it right under the enemy. It has to walk defenseless where it want to be planted. That´s a difference in how it is used. The rest is a numbers game by Blizz.

On September 18 2012 23:19 Crawdad wrote:


Well, what would Warhounds have to counter? The things that Vikings don't already destroy. So, they would probably slaughter Mutalisks, do well against Phoenixes and Interceptors, and do okay against Vikings. Basically, they would be more accessible Thors, yes? This idea is okay, because it gives the Void Ray more of a purpose, but I don't like the idea of scrapping the Thor. It should just lose its GtA and become a powerhouse.

On September 19 2012 10:35 YyapSsap wrote:

[snip]
Your line of thinking is very absurd because if I take your logic and employ them, i get the following:

Aren't banshees just wraiths with stronger AtG and no AtA?
Nope. Waiths were much better AtA than AtG and some of the faster air units. Banshees are among the slow air units, without any AtA and are basically ranged dark templar. They force a response even in low numbers.
Aren't marauders just dragoons with stim?
No. Only the attack value matches. Goons were fat, marauders are only slightly bigger than marines. Goons can shoot air, too. Many people believe Marauders with GtA attack would break the game. Did Goons break the game?
Aren't roaches just hydralisks with more hp and shorter range? Oh dragoons with lower hp and shorter range?
Are you even trying? Roach burrow and fastheal does differentiate it very much already. Even then, movespeed, range and hp define a unit. Roaches are much more like marauders than hydralisks
Aren't thors just bigger marauders without stim but can shoot air?
....
Aren´t Colossi just Thors with splash, higher movespeed more range no air attack and the ability to be attacked by anti air?
Marauders have high mobility, are more responsive, fit better in smaller space and can be produced much easier and with only a quarter of the thors hp
I could probably go on for awhile til i run out of units. You say SC2 developers look for new and exciting units.. yet they come up with units like the previous warhound and the colssus? Infestors are exciting with chain fungal-ing? Give me a break. Marauders are exciting??

The thing is that the cool, gimmicky and "new" stuff for the sake of being "new" should always come second to fulfiling the basics first.

On September 19 2012 01:17 slightlyoff wrote:
Now how do you buff zerg to deal with the fact that siege tanks and battle hellions will make lings, banes, roaches, and hydras melt away?

Not to say i want them to counter siege tanks. But in sufficient numbers zerg ground armies need to be able to deal with the terran ground army. If siege tanks are too effective against roaches, the bulk of the anti-mech army early on, then how does zerg subsequently kill off the now beefier mech army whose health has been increased by the addition of health to the hellion in battle form. Zerglings are not good against mech. Thors kill lings cost effectively, battle hellions laugh at lings, and tanks do pretty well with support. Hydras have not been buffed pre-hive at all(in fact they've been nerfed because their creep movespeed was reduced to compensate for the hive upgrade) and this means they are still the shitty unit they were in WoL.

Zerg is inadequately equipped to deal with a mech army pre-hive tech if the siege tank gets a buff and this will need to be adressed.

To be clear I'm not saying your ideas are bad. I like the idea of making sc2 more about zone control. But zerg and protoss subsequently NEED to be able to kill siege tank lines. And when I mean need to be able to do it I don't mean late game I mean early game where they've received very few changes if any to deal with

On September 19 2012 06:14 Crawdad wrote:
DB just posted that the Warhound is not coming back. :-/

On September 19 2012 19:29 perser84 wrote:

can you at least share a link proof that ?

On September 20 2012 03:47 ahw wrote:
what id do to "fix" mech/terran lategame in tvp/tvz:

add a tech lab upgrade that requires siege mode and an armory that increases the single target damage of tanks by 15-20, or buff tank damage thru upgrade as has been suggested. Basically make tank lines less bustable without investment from the protoss/zerg. there's a lot of focus on mech tvp, but really, it doesn't look good for tvz. tanks are already falling out of favor in WoL, and that is before the anti-tank units like swarm hosts or vipers...

remove strike cannons from thor, add haywire missile as an upgrade. remove energy from thor. haywire missile fits thor well, and thor should be the mech-busting unit and it has the build time and tech level to fit that properly.

either of those two changes would make mech really viable in all matchups.