EPTWhy the Warhound should NOT be balanced - Page 24
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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KatuStarcraft
Canada161 Posts
Blizzard, please heed this warning. | ||
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PittlerGG
22 Posts
Option A) L2P orb, wait for blizzard to get their game out of fucken beta testing and just don't cry so much until then. Option B) since its obvious that orb thinks so highly of himself, he knows better than blizzard how to make a successful and balanced and fun game, we should sack blizzards game design team and hire orb instead as King of the knowledge of all things related to making games fun. Imma go with A for now, what do you think? | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On September 13 2012 03:06 PittlerGG wrote: TL DR orb is butthurt that he is losing in hots BETA. What should we do about it? Option A) L2P orb, wait for blizzard to get their game out of fucken beta testing and just don't cry so much until then. Option B) since its obvious that orb thinks so highly of himself, he knows better than blizzard how to make a successful and balanced and fun game, we should sack blizzards game design team and hire orb instead as King of the knowledge of all things related to making games fun. Imma go with A for now, what do you think? I think your a retard. | ||
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snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On September 10 2012 15:39 -orb- wrote: Even if you do not agree with me about high skill mechanics being necessary and even vital to the success of Starcraft 2 as an esport, what is the justification for putting in a unit that fills exactly the same role as the marauder? Terran already has an attack move, hyper mobile, tanky, high dps unit that can only attack ground. Why do they need a second one? yes! and while you're at it, take a good look at protoss, because it's not fun for me to play any more, and i'm a die-hard Aiur fan... :/ | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
If you listen to this weeks Inside the Game, Idra and Incontrol said that Blizzard has a forum for the beta where they are communicating directly with the pros about the problems in the beta. Both Idra and Incontrol were very postive about the interaction with Blizzard and that they are aware of the issues with the new protoss units(and warhound). It sounds like Blizzard is taking the criticism and is willing to address things the pros are taking about. If you want to feel better about the beta, go listen to the show from this week. Also, remember that the WoL units were not good until players really got their hands on them. Blizzard cannot fully design units until they see them in the hands of high level players. It takes time, effort and hard work. | ||
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RMonkeyF
46 Posts
Oh, kind of like everything zerg and protoss. Blizzard gave terrans the warhound due to the simple fact that we needed something that doesn't require us to micro perfectly or die and lose every other game. I could care less about reading beyond your act of stupidity, you need to re-think on what you're trying to accomplish. | ||
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Vronti
United States111 Posts
Sure I can't pull off a multi-prong drop harass while baiting the main army out away from the opponent's base, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy trying it, and get nerd chills when I see it happen. Splitting against banelings, target firing/positioning with tanks, and medivac/prism micro are three things that are incredible to see, and easy to imitate on a lower level. I want to see more of that kind of thing in the game, not just macro fights warhound vs death ball. As shiny as they may be, those fights aren't much of a showcase for the skill I want to see in pro matches. | ||
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
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EdTheSheep
United Kingdom3 Posts
But then again what do I know?  | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
It is a unit that simply does not belong in its current form in Starcraft 2. OK, I have a problem with this argument, and it goes something like this. Blizzard could do one of 3 things with the Warhound: 1) Leave it as is. 2) Balance it. 3) Remove/heavily modify it. #1 is a bad idea. A broken unit is broken, and should therefore be fixed. Leaving it alone is not a good idea, regardless of whether you support #2 or #3. #3 is not going to happen. I almost guarantee it. I lay 10:1 odds that not only will the Warhound see HotS's release, but that it will do so in a form that is functionally identical to what it is now (though obviously stats can be tweaked). Blizzard wants the unit in the game in it's current form (and feel free to call me out for this if it gets cut or modified). Since #1 is a priori bad, and I simply don't believe #3 is going to happen no matter how many "I hate the Warhound" threads TL has, I'm going to have to say that #2 is the best of the available options. Note that I agree that the Warhound is a fundamentally shitty unit. But I don't believe that Blizzard agrees; so long as that is the case, the best option is for them to balance it. There are two main conflicting philosophies for game design in this context that apply to starcraft. The first is that you design a game that will be fun to watch and will inspire people to play. [...] The second design philosophy (which seems to be what Blizzard is employing) is to create a game that everyone can easily grasp and understand, and thus you attract new players because they are not discouraged by the game being difficult. [...] I disagree with this in several areas. First, I disagree that these philosophies are in conflict. There is nothing that requires a game that is easy to grasp to be boring to watch. The Colossus is a boring unit because it is a boring unit. But really, so are Zealots. So is a Reaver in the absence of Shuttles. It is the combination of different units and tactics, the need for micro in battles, that micro and quick-thinking can turn a defeat into victory, that makes it interesting to watch. And there's nothing about that need that requires the game to be difficult to play in many of the ways SC1 is difficult to play. Second, I disagree that various mechanics people point to "inspire people to play." I've never watched someone using patrol/hold-position micro and thought, "hey, I want to do that!" then run over to my machine and play. My first thought upon seeing that (and learning the mechanics of it) was, "that's exploiting a game bug." Even ignoring that issue (which is admittedly subjective), I don't recall playership in the non-Korean part of the world of SC1 going up due to videos of skilled SC1 play. Yes, there was a core of SC1 players outside of South-Korea who kept playing, but in general, the numbers were never going up. And thus, high-level play was not inspiring more people to play to compensate for general attrition. Most importantly third, I disagree that Blizzard is even following that philosophy. They don't seem to be following any philosophy beyond making the game more balanced. Since their AoE attack was clearly ridiculously overpowered, it was balanced out not by reducing the damage or some other boring stat change to make every unit equally powerful (which almost seems to be Blizzard's intention with SC2), but instead by making it hopelessly immobile and by making the ammunition cost resources and take time to build. You have that backwards. Blizzard decided that the Protoss would have a couple of units that cost resources to use. That built things in the field. The Reaver was one of them. The Reaver's attack is powerful because it costs resources. Now yes, it's slow because it's attack is so powerful. But I would point this out: if Shuttles didn't exist, or were unable to combo with them, Reavers would have been a forgotten unit. Because without Shuttles, Reavers aren't entertaining in the slightest. Reavers are only interesting when you remove their limitation via the use of micro. | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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lamiller
United States92 Posts
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numberThirtyOne
United States294 Posts
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Tenda
United States146 Posts
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j.k.l
112 Posts
there was a fucking riot on that | ||
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Brahoono
119 Posts
On September 13 2012 05:24 NicolBolas wrote: Blizzard could do one of 3 things with the Warhound: 1) Leave it as is. 2) Balance it. 3) Remove/heavily modify it. #1 is a bad idea. A broken unit is broken, and should therefore be fixed. Leaving it alone is not a good idea, regardless of whether you support #2 or #3. #3 is not going to happen. I almost guarantee it. I lay 10:1 odds that not only will the Warhound see HotS's release, but that it will do so in a form that is functionally identical to what it is now (though obviously stats can be tweaked). Blizzard wants the unit in the game in it's current form (and feel free to call me out for this if it gets cut or modified). Since #1 is a priori bad, and I simply don't believe #3 is going to happen no matter how many "I hate the Warhound" threads TL has, I'm going to have to say that #2 is the best of the available options. Note that I agree that the Warhound is a fundamentally shitty unit. But I don't believe that Blizzard agrees; so long as that is the case, the best option is for them to balance it. I'm like a 100% certain Blizzard will either remove or heavily modify it. Pros complain about it in their little secret Blizzardforum and the community HATES it. Also there are pretty strong arguments against the current Warhound. Blizzard is a little ignorant and proud, but I'm pretty sure they will swallow that down and just change the unit for the sake of a better game. | ||
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dragonsuper
Liechtenstein222 Posts
Good work orb... it's impossible Blizzard will answer removing such units but... GL. I stopped playing SC2 1 year ago , i stopped watching GSL and PRO Matches almost instantly because they are so boring. Watching units like colossi and marauders going over and over from left to right is wasting time. It's nothing compare to the skill required to master Brood war. PRO SC2 players... They're like children in a battleground... and frankly knowing that Jaedong , Flash and Kespa players had to learn this "garbage" now that BW is dead make me feel so bad. Blizzard should have taken Brood war with a new graphic engine, but Dustin Browder tried to innovate. Innovation is not something everyone is capable of... Dustin Browder is certainly not an innovator and he showed that to us clearly. | ||
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kyriores
Greece178 Posts
While I don't agree with the OP in the part about completely redesigning the unit (if they redesign it then they'll have to redesign many of the existing units to finally achieve balance in the TvNon-T matchups) I still believe that the unit itself is a bit too strong, especially early in game. I've been watching Thorzain playing some hots and some of his Warhound pushes seemed unstoppable, even though they weren't all-ins. So yeah, Blizzard will obviously try to fix this problem either by increasing the cost a bit, or by adding some more seconds to the construction time but I don't think that the other races will be having difficulties confronting it after those mini-nerfs, to justify radical changes in the unit design. Edit: Oh and I agree that such units make the game much much easier but they already exist and they're the main reason why Sc2 is a joke compared to Sc1 in terms of difficulty. | ||
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[NSL]BansheeHero
Czech Republic143 Posts
Maybe we should save the sanctity of marriage and remove Archon made from Dark Templars. Starcraft had so many A move units and nobody gave a shit (Some of them even had developed into heavy micro depended units.). This is just another over blown opinion of somebody. If we seriously want these sensational statements to matter we should vote for Slasher to be the eSports president. EDIT: He could have written this ever since the preview was out. The concept of Warhound never changed. All aboard the warhound bandwagon chuchuchu. | ||
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