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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
On September 11 2012 10:25 Kilbim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 09:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 11 2012 09:39 Ucs wrote:
Finally terran gets a "attack move" unit and you people don't want to balance it, you want to remove it. Well I think you are wrong. Its a TvT fixer and a good unit to make mech viable. Stop whining and deal with it(isen't that what every other race says when one complains about another? When T was crying about the queen range buff nobody said to remove the queen, but to nerf it and the answer was deal with it. Innovate new strategies.)
I only want for terran to get what protoss and zerg already have, so fk me, right? Many people also want Protoss and Zerg to require more unit control, the return of a unit like the Reaver over the Collosus, those kind of things. Wanting a better game, especially one that is in beta stage and is still subject to community input is not just whining. Are you crazy? Protoss already needs microing in battles, especially in PvZ (less in PvT I agree). In PvZ there is the need to: perfect forcefield or its already lost, guardian shield, focusfire the stalkers on the corruptors to protect the colossi from them.. All this while trying to spread out of the fungals and trying to blink microing... On topic: warhound is just extremely imba and ridicolously powerfull. I love how blizzard pretend that it was created to spice up TvT, making it an anti-armored and a counter to tanks, while tanks (together with banelings) is the only thing he doesn't kill. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8VKon9F-zM) And meanwhile warhound kills everything of protoss. Nice excuse to nerf protoss even more. No warpins in highround, shit new units and imba counter-units.
I am entirely aware of how to control Protoss units, I play Protoss. Casting spells like forcefield and storms to win games is all well and good, people want a way to win through better control of basic units, instead of relying on spells/Collosi to win battles.
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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
On September 11 2012 10:59 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 09:46 Zorkmid wrote:On September 11 2012 09:44 Swords wrote:On September 11 2012 09:39 Ucs wrote:
Finally terran gets a "attack move" unit and you people don't want to balance it, you want to remove it. Well I think you are wrong. Its a TvT fixer and a good unit to make mech viable. Stop whining and deal with it(isen't that what every other race says when one complains about another? When T was crying about the queen range buff nobody said to remove the queen, but to nerf it and the answer was deal with it. Innovate new strategies.)
I only want for terran to get what protoss and zerg already have, so fk me, right? I think orb may have focused on the Warhound too much in his post. The point here is fuck all "attack move" units for every race. That means fuck Colossi, Broodlords, etc. This isn't about balance either, it's about whether or not the game is fun to watch/play. There's nothing fun about giant blobs of warhound/roach/colossus + gateway slamming into each other. Fun units are ones that do tremendous damage at tremendous risk because that's more exciting to watch and more fun/rewarding for a player of the game to learn. Nah, then we'd just have warcraft 3 in space. I hate warcraft. The dancing in Warcraft was fucking beautiful, it's a goddamned shame that more pros don't per unit micro their damaged units to the back. I hate your post.
I too have a soft spot for WC3 but such things were only possible due to things being pretty beefy. Stuff just melts too fast in SC2 to make such things worth it. The DPS output of balls just scales so quickly that it's hard to keep in such heavy micro play later on in the game.
Some of my favourite games in SC2 involve me (P) holding off big Terran cheese/aggressions because there are few units on the field. You're stretched to your limits micro wise and it's always really intense.
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On September 11 2012 11:08 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:59 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On September 11 2012 09:46 Zorkmid wrote:On September 11 2012 09:44 Swords wrote:On September 11 2012 09:39 Ucs wrote:
Finally terran gets a "attack move" unit and you people don't want to balance it, you want to remove it. Well I think you are wrong. Its a TvT fixer and a good unit to make mech viable. Stop whining and deal with it(isen't that what every other race says when one complains about another? When T was crying about the queen range buff nobody said to remove the queen, but to nerf it and the answer was deal with it. Innovate new strategies.)
I only want for terran to get what protoss and zerg already have, so fk me, right? I think orb may have focused on the Warhound too much in his post. The point here is fuck all "attack move" units for every race. That means fuck Colossi, Broodlords, etc. This isn't about balance either, it's about whether or not the game is fun to watch/play. There's nothing fun about giant blobs of warhound/roach/colossus + gateway slamming into each other. Fun units are ones that do tremendous damage at tremendous risk because that's more exciting to watch and more fun/rewarding for a player of the game to learn. Nah, then we'd just have warcraft 3 in space. I hate warcraft. The dancing in Warcraft was fucking beautiful, it's a goddamned shame that more pros don't per unit micro their damaged units to the back. I hate your post. I too have a soft spot for WC3 but such things were only possible due to things being pretty beefy. Stuff just melts too fast in SC2 to make such things worth it. The DPS output of balls just scales so quickly that it's hard to keep in such heavy micro play later on in the game. Some of my favourite games in SC2 involve me (P) holding off big Terran cheese/aggressions because there are few units on the field. You're stretched to your limits micro wise and it's always really intense.
What kills me is when I don't even see immortal, colossus, carrier micro. It's just mind boggling how little per unit micro is performed in the game even at a high level. As you say though, so many units just melt.
I guess we can't have just Warcraft - they are different games - but I do like the odd strong unit (like the ones listed) which can be pulled back and then back in again. About the only unit you see regular micro on is void rays. Hell even phoenix micro would be good - but do you see them move the weaker of the pack of 6 to the back? nope.
ARGH
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Balance and theorycrafting discussions aside, people forget that this is is Activision-Blizzard, not Blizzard Entertainment. The team that worked on StarCraft and StarCraft: Brood War is not the same as the current iteration, in fact they've long been gone from the company. An entirely new team with no previous StarCraft experience developed SC2 (heck, the lead designer is from the Command and Conquer franchise, an infinitely inferior RTS game compared to StarCraft). They obviously lack the understanding and insight that the original team had. I hate to sound pessimistic but they probably will never gain such understanding and insight.
I really REALLY hope I'm proven wrong.
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On September 11 2012 09:38 WeRRa wrote:
Is there actully a single person, who likes the current state of Hots, just curious, cause i think, it's an aweful game. Not just the units, also the other changes.
TvZ is doing fantastic. Magical mushroom+Vipers vs Tank+Raven is so good to see.
ZvP is OK. The MU is too stagnated on WoL, just need a metagame shift.
TvP can be good if past early/mid game. But the roles are reversed. Terran are in fewer bases when is going Mech, it is hard to Harass for Terran at the same time it's easy to Harass with Zealots. It is hard to move out as well. Flanks/Vortex are just too good against Thor/BH/Warhound.
TvT is in a weird place. But Biotank still works even against Warhound compositions. MMM now shreds Warhounds after the Patch.
ZvZ is getting better. Less volatile and more Tatical/Micro intensive.
It is more safe to expand in PvP. But War of the worlds are still reign strong after the midgame.
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I almost never post here. I just lurk, but now I had too. I totally agree with orb. But...
What I find most upsetting is not the warhound itself or the skill drop involved.
It's the fact that Blizzard is trying to push the directions in which Starcraft II should be played (for example mech-Terrans which seems to be their grand design plan for HotS).
Why is this upsetting? Because Blizzard isn't supposed to push the game in ANY direction. They are supposed to SUPPLY THE TOOLS. Players make the game, and players make it an E-sport.
I don't know when this great company stopped creating magic and went on creating "regular games" instead. Sure WoW needed a face lift, but they messed that up bad. D3, I won't even go there (who the f--- came up with the idea to kill off Deckard Cain in A1?). And now before HotS... Well, from what we have seen so far, I'm worried for Starcraft.
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On September 11 2012 11:24 Scratchy! wrote:
I almost never post here. I just lurk, but now I had too. I totally agree with orb. But...
What I find most upsetting is not the warhound itself.
It's the fact that Blizzard is trying to push the directions in which Starcraft II should be played (for example mech-Terrans which seems to be their grand design plan for HotS).
Why is this upsetting? Because Blizzard isn't supposed to push the game in ANY direction. They are supposed to SUPPLY THE TOOLS. Players make the game, and players make it an E-sport.
I don't know when this great company stopped creating magic and went on creating "regular games" instead. Sure WoW needed a face lift, but they messed that up bad. D3, I won't even go there (who the f--- came up with the idea to kill off Deckard Cain in A1?). And now before HotS... Well, from what we have seen so far, I'm worried for Starcraft.
Like I said in my post above, today's Blizzard is an entirely new iteration (except probably for Morhaime). The Blizzard that made its holy trinity of awesome games (Warcraft 1-3, StarCraft and StarCraft: Brood War, Diablo and Diablo II and its expansions) is long gone.
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Like I said in my post above. today's Blizzard is an entirely new iteration. The Blizzard that made its holy trinity of awesome games (Warcraft 1-3, StarCraft and StarCraft: Brood War, Diablo and Diablo II and its expansions) is long gone.
Yeah, I just read that right after i posted. I guess that answers my question 
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On September 10 2012 15:46 Megabuster123 wrote:
I agree with everything you just said, but I'm like 99% sure we're all just fucked and blizzard is going to leave it in the game because they don't give a shit about anything you just said.
Pretty much this.
I agree with everything, but it's nothing new. I played SC2 extensively through beta and after. About a year after, I realized this game was stale. There are many issues but unit design is the focus here. Warhound sucks, true. So does the immortal, collosus(as you mentioned), roaches, marauders... We could go on and on. Blizzard is just being Blizzard. It's the peoples fault that SC2 is the way it is. People still actively watch and play it, so Blizz will be Blizz. You can't blame them. Blizzard has consistently shown us that they either don't know how to give us(the minority) the game we want, or they just don't want to(probably this). If you want to try and make a difference then try getting in touch with Starbow, or make your own Starcraft mod and stream it and host tournaments. Competition is good, and there is no alternative to SC2 really. BW is gone and even when it wasn't, the low graphics made many not be able to compare it to SC2. Anyways, SC2 gameplay will remain the way it is unless Blizzard has a major design change, or people show them by playing something else. We have all the tools available. I rarely go on SC2 anymore, and when I do it's to play a Starbow match. It amazes me how much more fun I have with that game than regular SC2. It's not perfect but it goes to show that if the community was really ready for a big change, it could be done. But the community isn't ready, people that hate SC2 and it's direction will continue to play and ladder like zombies while hoping that one day Blizz will bring them the game they so desperately desire.
Basically, we need the TL Promod to become a reality. No joke.
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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:07 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 15:46 Megabuster123 wrote:
I agree with everything you just said, but I'm like 99% sure we're all just fucked and blizzard is going to leave it in the game because they don't give a shit about anything you just said. Pretty much this. I agree with everything, but it's nothing new. I played SC2 extensively through beta and after. About a year after, I realized this game was stale. There are many issues but unit design is the focus here. Warhound sucks, true. So does the immortal, collosus(as you mentioned), roaches, marauders... We could go on and on. Blizzard is just being Blizzard. It's the peoples fault that SC2 is the way it is. People still actively watch and play it, so Blizz will be Blizz. You can't blame them. Blizzard has consistently shown us that they either don't know how to give us(the minority) the game we want, or they just don't want to(probably this). If you want to try and make a difference then try getting in touch with Starbow, or make your own Starcraft mod and stream it and host tournaments. Competition is good, and there is no alternative to SC2 really. BW is gone and even when it wasn't, the low graphics made many not be able to compare it to SC2. Anyways, SC2 gameplay will remain the way it is unless Blizzard has a major design change, or people show them by playing something else. We have all the tools available. I rarely go on SC2 anymore, and when I do it's to play a Starbow match. It amazes me how much more fun I have with that game than regular SC2. It's not perfect but it goes to show that if the community was really ready for a big change, it could be done. But the community isn't ready, people that hate SC2 and it's direction will continue to play and ladder like zombies while hoping that one day Blizz will bring them the game they so desperately desire. Basically, we need the TL Promod to become a reality. No joke.
What happened to the TL Promod anyway? I was really intrigued reading that way back in the day. I think it's something that could have mileage but it's probably tough to sort out. One day that kind of thing may be the thing to properly reinvigorate SC2
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Dear Orb, I'm curious on your thoughts on the Goliath and the lack of a similar all-round unit in WoL mech. From what I understand, Blizzard's inclusion of the Warhound was to give mech that same all-round unit it lacks in WoL, but naturally be something other than just a Goliath clone -- hence them deciding on a ground-to-ground only unit with anti-mech capabilities.
Is it that you don't like the idea of a Goliath-type unit in general, or just that you feel Blizzard's approach to the unit's specifics is flawed?
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We just need more popular members in the community to embrace a SC1 mod and host a few tournamaents. The game itself is better, and people will understand why after watching 1 tournament
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Even if the warhound doesn't belong in the game, it certainly needed rebalancing before the first patch (and it still might--not sure yet). If you haven't seen this video, it does a pretty good job of showing why, lol...
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On September 11 2012 12:48 trbot wrote:Even if the warhound doesn't belong in the game, it certainly needed rebalancing before the first patch (and it still might--not sure yet). If you haven't seen this video, it does a pretty good job of showing why, lol...
Wow...just wow. I never thought anything on the ground could beat mass collosus.
The greatest irony is that tanks won. The unit warhounds specifically are supposed to counter
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I don't see why so many people are like "Blizzard will never remove the warhound. They're retarded and it's still in the beta for a week, so it must be true!"
We're talking about actual human beings, one of which is in grandmaster with all the races. We aren't talking about glue-sniffing retards. Completely scrapping a unit is a rather large decision, and we all know how Blizzard likes its snail pace development. If I were given a button that would instantly scrap the warhound, despite the fact I know it's terrible, I would still be giving it a week or two to make some balance attempts, if only because the decision to scrap it is just so final.
If nothing comes out of the unit, it will be removed. Soon. Trust me.
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Canada11471 Posts
Pros: Newbies get inspired to actually spend time playing the game because they see professional players doing amazing moves that they didn't even know/think were possible. It encourages them to continue playing the game because they still have many things they haven't mastered. Players actually enjoy the game because there is an inherent enjoyment in having practiced something difficult and executing it correctly. Pro matches are more fun to watch and esports flourishes because people LOVE watching other people do things they can't do (don't believe me? Just look at the olympics... pro sports... BROOD WAR). The game's shelf life is extended tremendously due to the increased enjoyment in replayability.
I 100% agree with this. I switched to Protoss because Storms were so powerful and hard to use properly. I practiced Reaver-Shuttle because I was in awe of what the pro's could do. Even the little bit I could manage was a satisfying experience. I tried out Carrier micro because it looked fun. I off-raced just so I could try out muta micro. Spectacular micro units leaves viewers in awe. The high hanging fruit are appealing when you can just touch the lower ones. If all the fruit is low hanging, a lot of the power and uniqueness of a unit get's nerfed out of the unit. And what we're left is bland, samey, but balanced units. Units that require mastery are units that are allowed to have tremendous power. The true balance is in the hands of the players, not in yet another bonus to armour or light.
And I know there are all sorts of subtle things that pro's do to separate themselves from others. But subtle positioning is only the foundation like good dribbling. We need layups, 3 point shots, and the SLAM DUNK! Visual and visceral. Day9's frisbee analogy comes to mind.
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What an idiot op is. Warhound is bad because it isn't requiring great micro? That's thepoint of the unit. Look at the comparison http://i.imgur.com/M7oTJ.jpg
Blizzard made it a no micro unit for a reason.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland26496 Posts
On September 11 2012 14:19 worldpeace30 wrote:What an idiot op is. Warhound is bad because it isn't requiring great micro? That's thepoint of the unit. Look at the comparison http://i.imgur.com/M7oTJ.jpg Blizzard made it a no micro unit for a reason.
What does that have to do with anything? And if Orb is an idiot based on what he posted, you barely class as sentient. \
If you disagree with what he posted, give a reason, if you like the warhound, give a reason why it's a good unit/design.
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If you disagree with what he posted, give a reason.
l2r
User was warned for this post
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On September 11 2012 13:58 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +Pros: Newbies get inspired to actually spend time playing the game because they see professional players doing amazing moves that they didn't even know/think were possible. It encourages them to continue playing the game because they still have many things they haven't mastered. Players actually enjoy the game because there is an inherent enjoyment in having practiced something difficult and executing it correctly. Pro matches are more fun to watch and esports flourishes because people LOVE watching other people do things they can't do (don't believe me? Just look at the olympics... pro sports... BROOD WAR). The game's shelf life is extended tremendously due to the increased enjoyment in replayability. I 100% agree with this. I switched to Protoss because Storms were so powerful and hard to use properly. I practiced Reaver-Shuttle because I was in awe of what the pro's could do. Even the little bit I could manage was a satisfying experience. I tried out Carrier micro because it looked fun. I off-raced just so I could try out muta micro. Spectacular micro units leaves viewers in awe. The high hanging fruit are appealing when you can just touch the lower ones. If all the fruit is low hanging, a lot of the power and uniqueness of a unit get's nerfed out of the unit. And what we're left is bland, samey, but balanced units. Units that require mastery are units that are allowed to have tremendous power. The true balance is in the hands of the players, not in yet another bonus to armour or light. And I know there are all sorts of subtle things that pro's do to separate themselves from others. But subtle positioning is only the foundation like good dribbling. We need layups, 3 point shots, and the SLAM DUNK! Visual and visceral. Day9's frisbee analogy comes to mind.
^
Reaver/shuttle micro is the reason I play starcraft. I laughed when I heard that starcraft was played professionally, but when I saw those first few stork games I ate every syllable because, like most people from my generation, I had played bw as a kid and I couldn't believe that shit was possible.
The more I think about it, there are very few legitimate analogs to that kind of micro in sc2. I doubt I would play sc2 if I hadn't played bw. Not that I don't love sc2, but it probably wouldn't have caught my attention.
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EPT
