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On August 16 2012 09:30 GolemMadness wrote:
Good game design does not revolve around "We don't like this, let's make a unit designed solely to counter it." What's happened to Blizzard?
Dustin Browder
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On August 16 2012 08:29 SarcasmMonster wrote:Beta is coming soon  Not sure if there's enough time from now till the beta for any major changes.
It's not that there's no time, it's that Blizzard honestly doesn't care about player input unless it's massive whining (which gets races nerfed/buffed).
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Make warhound's missle thing on longer cooldown and manual cast like corruption.
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On August 16 2012 10:25 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 08:29 SarcasmMonster wrote:Beta is coming soon Not sure if there's enough time from now till the beta for any major changes. It's not that there's no time, it's that Blizzard honestly doesn't care about player input unless it's massive whining (which gets races nerfed/buffed).
Hey, I'll do my part and whine then 
It's pretty obvious that the community is not behind the current iteration of the Warhound.
Poll: First impressions of the Warhound in TvPAwful (145) 74% Great (18) 9% Bad (17) 9% Good (8) 4% Neutral (8) 4% 196 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Warhound in TvP (Vote): Great
(Vote): Good
(Vote): Neutral
(Vote): Bad
(Vote): Awful
[
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On August 15 2012 01:47 Kamwah wrote:
It's an A-move unit, they're giving Terrans a way to be like the other two races.
As much as I wish all of the races had to micro evenly, I know this isn't the case and Terran does need A-move units.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair.
Not to mention you couldn't make goliaths with a reactor. Goliaths just plain sucked ass on the ground, and they had the exact same function as vikings do: you got them when you badly needed anti-air. Vikings are better goliaths (mobility) that don't need an upgrade to have decent range. The cost factor isn't even that relevant because you gain money quicker in SC2.
As for the warhound now: as it stands it has no unique function or purpose, other than to make terran players play mech like it was bio. It's just a marauder built from the factory for the most part, and not even a particularly good one, since medivacs can't heal it. Mech doesn't need it, it's only function is to have terran make fewer tanks.
Change the ability to be something that actually helps mech, like an ability that acts a spotter for a siege tank and increases its range or vision, or a defensive matrix or something like the BC has in the campaign to allow it to soak damage. They shouldn't just be a quicker, high damage dealing, mech destroyer built from a factory.
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The biggest thing I don't like about the warhound is the way it looks, I just don't like it.
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The terrible game design behind the unit is secondary to it's incredibly bad aesthetics in my eyes. At least make it look semi-presentable.
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On August 16 2012 11:33 Ettick wrote:
The biggest thing I don't like about the warhound is the way it looks, I just don't like it.
It looks just like %95 of the people who play this game, tall, lanky and awkward
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On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair.
?? Goliaths received 75% normal damage from Explosive class attacks, so they were pretty decent vs Goons (Goons overkill while golis don't), fine vs unseiged tanks because the only time they engaged the was when dropped on/overwhelming them anyways, and only kinda bad vs Hydras. I mean, technically they were about cost even at maxed upgrades.... the reason it seemed like they sucked was because marines were just better than them in every way and situation other than Mech TvT or killing Arbiters. (Sometimes they were even okay vs hydra/lurk zerg in weird ZvT if you had non-pro micro capability)
Also... Golis convincingly beating VULTURES? Bwahahahaha NOTHING on the ground even got close to being cost efficient vs Vultures
Oh, but I do agree with you generally that Goli's wouldn't be a godsend... I mean... they were the second most retarded unit in BW and THE most retarded unit in SC2 Single player... almost like the AI stayed the same with JUST the goliath.
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On August 16 2012 11:38 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 11:33 Ettick wrote:
The biggest thing I don't like about the warhound is the way it looks, I just don't like it. It looks just like %95 of the people who play this game, tall, lanky and awkward
XD that's me to a T my good man.
War hound? I dunno what I think of it. Can't decide. But I sure like Falling's thread as linked on page 1.
Edit: blog.
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On August 15 2012 23:22 Ace1123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 01:48 Jimmeh wrote:
I don't know why people think it's just going to be another "A-click" unit; if anything it'll be fairly micro intensive.
You have to realise that if you have its ability on autocast then it will autotarget units that aren't necessarily the best units to target. Most pro players will probably have autocast disabled and then constantly have to manually cast it on higher priority units like colossus, immortals etc. as opposed to stalkers/sentries. Exactly! Nuff Said
Hmm, really? How many players do you know manually cast charge on zealots? I realise it's not the same but when you have say 6-10 warhounds and a bunch of siege tanks I just can't see even top tier pros bothering to manually micro that ability.
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On August 16 2012 11:29 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:
[quote]
I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work.
And majority of posts look like this:
[quote]
Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair. Not to mention you couldn't make goliaths with a reactor. Goliaths just plain sucked ass on the ground, and they had the exact same function as vikings do: you got them when you badly needed anti-air. Vikings are better goliaths (mobility) that don't need an upgrade to have decent range. The cost factor isn't even that relevant because you gain money quicker in SC2. As for the warhound now: as it stands it has no unique function or purpose, other than to make terran players play mech like it was bio. It's just a marauder built from the factory for the most part, and not even a particularly good one, since medivacs can't heal it. Mech doesn't need it, it's only function is to have terran make fewer tanks. Change the ability to be something that actually helps mech, like an ability that acts a spotter for a siege tank and increases its range or vision, or a defensive matrix or something like the BC has in the campaign to allow it to soak damage. They shouldn't just be a quicker, high damage dealing, mech destroyer built from a factory.
The real issue with vikings is they can't adapt fast enough from air to ground. You also end up with boring corrupter vs viking battles often times which is basically watching two identical units slug it out. Having a ground form unit thats goliath esque would create some much more interesting ways for all the matchups to play out.
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On August 17 2012 01:44 Zach_Attack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 11:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:
[quote]
In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair. Not to mention you couldn't make goliaths with a reactor. Goliaths just plain sucked ass on the ground, and they had the exact same function as vikings do: you got them when you badly needed anti-air. Vikings are better goliaths (mobility) that don't need an upgrade to have decent range. The cost factor isn't even that relevant because you gain money quicker in SC2. As for the warhound now: as it stands it has no unique function or purpose, other than to make terran players play mech like it was bio. It's just a marauder built from the factory for the most part, and not even a particularly good one, since medivacs can't heal it. Mech doesn't need it, it's only function is to have terran make fewer tanks. Change the ability to be something that actually helps mech, like an ability that acts a spotter for a siege tank and increases its range or vision, or a defensive matrix or something like the BC has in the campaign to allow it to soak damage. They shouldn't just be a quicker, high damage dealing, mech destroyer built from a factory. The real issue with vikings is they can't adapt fast enough from air to ground. You also end up with boring corrupter vs viking battles often times which is basically watching two identical units slug it out. Having a ground form unit thats goliath esque would create some much more interesting ways for all the matchups to play out.
I already wrote this somewhere, but it would be interesting if they just remade viking into more ground based unit. Buff its damage also add long range air anti armored attack(make it crap vs light). Remake air mode for transportation and dealing with light air unit.
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On August 19 2012 06:32 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 01:44 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 11:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:
[quote]
But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units.
That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's).
It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all...
Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair. Not to mention you couldn't make goliaths with a reactor. Goliaths just plain sucked ass on the ground, and they had the exact same function as vikings do: you got them when you badly needed anti-air. Vikings are better goliaths (mobility) that don't need an upgrade to have decent range. The cost factor isn't even that relevant because you gain money quicker in SC2. As for the warhound now: as it stands it has no unique function or purpose, other than to make terran players play mech like it was bio. It's just a marauder built from the factory for the most part, and not even a particularly good one, since medivacs can't heal it. Mech doesn't need it, it's only function is to have terran make fewer tanks. Change the ability to be something that actually helps mech, like an ability that acts a spotter for a siege tank and increases its range or vision, or a defensive matrix or something like the BC has in the campaign to allow it to soak damage. They shouldn't just be a quicker, high damage dealing, mech destroyer built from a factory. The real issue with vikings is they can't adapt fast enough from air to ground. You also end up with boring corrupter vs viking battles often times which is basically watching two identical units slug it out. Having a ground form unit thats goliath esque would create some much more interesting ways for all the matchups to play out. I already wrote this somewhere, but it would be interesting if they just remade viking into more ground based unit. Buff its damage also add long range air anti armored attack(make it crap vs light). Remake air mode for transportation and dealing with light air unit.
And then colossus become ridiculously strong. Changes like that aren't so easy.
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i for one like the warhound as its current build and look foward to see it play in the beta.
terrans have enough thing to do during a fight they dont need another unit that need babysitting, in fact the two other races should need somes instead.
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Get rid of anti-mech ability and make it into a smaller weaker AA unit  )))))
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When haywire missiles hit an immortal's shield, will it count as one hit or several (each missile) against the shield?
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On August 19 2012 06:32 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 01:44 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 11:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 09:20 -NegativeZero- wrote:On August 16 2012 04:45 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:55 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 16 2012 03:29 Whitewing wrote:On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:
[quote]
But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units.
That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's).
It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all...
Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... Viking ground mode gets a lot of use in TvT, and gets used in PvT after colossi die. Vikings are actually pretty decent on the ground. I'm hard-pressed to think of a unit that ground Vikings trade cost-efficiently with. Hellions? Reapers? Can you think of many units in BW on the ground that goliaths traded cost-efficiently with? And yeah, vikings do very well vs. hellions, reapers, do pretty well vs. marines before stim and medivacs, do pretty hilariously well vs. hydralisks (although nobody makes them in the matchup), and they get used for harass (see every TvT Gumiho plays). They're like super mobile goliaths. Goliaths did well vs. Marines, Firebats, unsieged Siege Tanks, Vultures, Zealots, Dragoons (situationally), Dark Templar, Zerglings, Hydralisks, Wraiths, Battlecruisers, Scouts, Carriers, Mutalisks, and Guardians (all with the range upgrade). The Viking's place in the tech tree means that you will almost never get it out before Marines have Stim/Combat Shield. I've also never actually seen Vikings trade well against Hydralisks due to the Hydralisk's ridiculous DPS, I'll have to test that. They're also sub-par for harass due to their high cost, the fact that they take away from Medivac production, and the fact that you need to keep them for AA and so losing them is a big setback. lol have you ever even played BW? Goliaths were actually pretty terrible vs most ground units - in fact they had literally the exact same stats as a viking vs ground units (12 dmg, 125 hp) albeit at a lower cost. The only ground units they beat convincingly were vultures, zerglings, marines, and firebats, and you'd never even see the last 2 in a normal TvT. They were mediocre vs zealots and were just plain bad vs tanks, hydras, and dragoons due to explosive damage. People really only got them for antiair. Not to mention you couldn't make goliaths with a reactor. Goliaths just plain sucked ass on the ground, and they had the exact same function as vikings do: you got them when you badly needed anti-air. Vikings are better goliaths (mobility) that don't need an upgrade to have decent range. The cost factor isn't even that relevant because you gain money quicker in SC2. As for the warhound now: as it stands it has no unique function or purpose, other than to make terran players play mech like it was bio. It's just a marauder built from the factory for the most part, and not even a particularly good one, since medivacs can't heal it. Mech doesn't need it, it's only function is to have terran make fewer tanks. Change the ability to be something that actually helps mech, like an ability that acts a spotter for a siege tank and increases its range or vision, or a defensive matrix or something like the BC has in the campaign to allow it to soak damage. They shouldn't just be a quicker, high damage dealing, mech destroyer built from a factory. The real issue with vikings is they can't adapt fast enough from air to ground. You also end up with boring corrupter vs viking battles often times which is basically watching two identical units slug it out. Having a ground form unit thats goliath esque would create some much more interesting ways for all the matchups to play out. I already wrote this somewhere, but it would be interesting if they just remade viking into more ground based unit. Buff its damage also add long range air anti armored attack(make it crap vs light). Remake air mode for transportation and dealing with light air unit.
I really like this idea. In fact, make it a factory unit. Buff the ground stats but nerf the stats when they're flying. Like a goliath on ground but wraith when flying.
It was always interesting in BW that terran had the best ground army but worst airforce. It would be much better than now where everything is the same across races.
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Hmm... Just an idea: What if the warhound rockets were cd-based, but had a small mineral cost (25-ish). Change targeting to any unit (not just mech) and range of 7. Stuns mech unit for 2-in game seconds. Initially spawns with one.
That way you don't auto-cast it due to mineral drain, but use it more wisely by sniping colossi/casting units/brood lords. But you retain the option of auto-casting it vs tank lines. Since late game mech usually has excess of minerals, this would only inhibit the early/mid game economic management.
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EPT
