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i'm going to put my 2 cents in on this and i'm going to say that while i think the thor is a slow unit it does have it's uses that i rather like in part with tvz. Yes they are slow i won't try to lie about it. But the dps makes up for it so i'll take the dps over speed. With everyone wanting the goliath back i would like to see it back as well so that way you have a lot of choices to pick when you want to make your mech army and it's not just limited to: hellion, tank, thor, warhound. But what i really want to see is the hellion get a major bf buff so that way we don't have to use the battle hellion, otherwise just give us the firebat back and be done with it. hell a lot of terran's would use the firebat more with their tvp bioballs if they had that unit back instead of the hellion.
but on a side note though: i think blizz is running out of ideas on what units to make.
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On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all...
Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL!
Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it.
Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL!
Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all...
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Complaining about lack of anti-air on Warhound is very shallow IMO. Protoss stargate play is almost nonexistant in TvP in WoL, but in HotS the Oracle and Tempest might see some play... do you really think a Goliath would be terribly helpful against either of those?
Sure, Zerg has mutas and Brood Lords, but Thors and Vikings are already as direct of a counter as you could hope for against those, and besides the Warhound is pretty specifically meant to be used in TvP and TvT, not TvZ.
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On August 16 2012 01:08 Zato-1 wrote:
Complaining about lack of anti-air on Warhound is very shallow IMO. Protoss stargate play is almost nonexistant in TvP in WoL, but in HotS the Oracle and Tempest might see some play... do you really think a Goliath would be terribly helpful against either of those?
Sure, Zerg has mutas and Brood Lords, but Thors and Vikings are already as direct of a counter as you could hope for against those, and besides the Warhound is pretty specifically meant to be used in TvP and TvT, not TvZ.
Agreed. And since the widow mines hit air as well, they can soft counter any really early air busts.
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Here's what we want Blizzard. Or at least what I could derive from this thread.
1) 2 food
2) Goliath cost
3) Some anti Air. Doesn't have to be Terrible Terrible Damage.
4) Mobile
This unit doesn't even need to have splash Air. Goliaths used cost efficiency and sheer numbers to deal with Muta flocks. Maybe this unit should get Long Range, and Vikings range nerfed to 4-5 with splash to SUPPORT standard AA against huge flocks. Not to mention a Raven HSM buff would help deter huge flocks.
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On August 16 2012 01:12 GinDo wrote:
Here's what we want Blizzard. Or at least what I could derive from this thread.
1) 2 food
2) Goliath cost
3) Some anti Air. Doesn't have to be Terrible Terrible Damage.
4) Mobile
This unit doesn't even need to have splash Air. Goliaths used cost efficiency and sheer numbers to deal with Muta flocks. Maybe this unit should get Long Range, and Vikings range nerfed to 4-5 with splash to SUPPORT standard AA against huge flocks. Not to mention a Raven HSM buff would help deter huge flocks.
At this point, just bring the goliath back and tweak it properly.
No reason to create a new goliath that is weaker and that we gonna call warhound.
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On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:02 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 15 2012 23:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 15 2012 23:44 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 15 2012 23:35 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 15 2012 23:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 15 2012 22:51 wcr.4fun wrote:On August 15 2012 22:29 JonIrenicus wrote:
Warhound is an a-move unit.
So for me it is well designed, because protoss and zerg have so many a-move units.
What you should ask is a reworking of the protoss\zerg units to not be so a-movish, not to cut that possibility to terran army...
As terran, should we obliged to micro? I want to turtle such as you and to prepare my deathball to make you realise what a terran feels when he gets a-stomped. I agree, let's destroy this game even more by ruining the only interesting race in this game (terran). I've been reading your posts in a past few weeks, and I am quit worried for you... They are not destroying the Terran race, they are just making mech viable, even if you can argue that it isn't mech play, lets just forget about that, it will be viable. That means that Terran players will have choice. If you think that ONE unit will destroy the race completely, then I really can't help you. They are not making mech viable, battlehellions alone look like they'd augment that composition to make it viable. They're giving Terran a retarded, easy to use catch-all unit to appease scrubs, that is all. Yes, I am pretty sure that you know how it will turn out in the end, especially that is alpha build. After all, they can scrap the Warhound, and they can buff the Siege Tank, they are still trying to make mech viable. But hey, everyone on these forums know the best, and understand the game perfectly, even without touching it, so why bother actually arguing? We should just whine and flame Blizzard for not doing how we want, and 95% of people here is doing excellent job with that. I guess all these people knew how WoL would turn out too, since it was the same in the first few months as it was in the last 6 months, right? I'm fed up with people making salient points that get ignored, only to have people coming in and spouting the same incorrect statements after not reading the rest of the thread, every thread. It's not how it's balanced, it's its intended role, how it functions that people don't like. It's also not conducive to how mech is played, in its current form. The only thing you're right about is that the game is in Alpha and thus subject to change. Expressing our opinions on this garbage unit, may actually make Blizzard see sense and yes it may change. If the community leaves them to their own devices and go 'oh well, wait and see', well we'll get a game worse than it could have been. And yes, those whining in Beta about certain things actually turned out to be correct on a lot of their calls. Sorry for wanting the game to be as good as it can be by discussing this issue. There is nothing bad with wanting game to be good. The fact is, majority of people state the problem that they see(and it can be a problem, but doesn't necessarily mean it will be), but don't give the solution, it is like to whine for the sake of whining. Post can be constructive, explaining the problem, and giving the answer, but you can't expect for Blizzard to take you seriously if you just keep whine about balance, and flame them.(Not you, but community in general). I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest. These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to). Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge!
You (or someone) should make a thread on ideas for improving/replacing the warhound, maybe even an ideas for HOTS (maybe that would be too huge). You'd need a template to post with eg
+ Show Spoiler +Problem with warhound
Too "A move"
Not enough potential for better players to use it better
Boring
Not "mech" play
Only vs T and vs P . very little use against zerg
etc
How to solve issue
have the haywire not autocast
Give it a minimum range
Make it hit bio too
etc
Why this would solve/improve upon the warhound
Higher skillcap - more micro intensive
Minimum range could introduce cool positioning in the deathball/ lots of kiting stuff
I would actually make this thread right now, but i can't because i made this account today (I had to vent my feelings on the warhound)
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On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all...
First, bringing back old units is a stupid move. It just makes this game, brood war, and that's just moving backward. So definitely no there.
But even skipping that point. Vikings serve a similar role to Goliaths, absolutely, they just don't do one as well, but do another better. Goliath role in BW was to screen against air threats. Single, air threats, mostly for mech. They don't do that great against a ball of mutas, and they aren't spectacular on the ground either.
Vikings serve a very similar role. They are meant to stay around the army, are easily and cheaply producable, and screen it against big air threats. In the middle of everyone whining about one-dimensional units, you suggest removing usefulness from the viking by removing its ground mode. While, it isn't meant to be in that mode frequently, it is DEFINITELY used and should never be removed. Landing on tank lines can do a lot of damage, and there is potential for harassment when landing in mineral lines. There are a number of uses that just make what you said completely wrong and short-sighted.
Goliath would be useless. You would never build it, it would suck, it does not help at all against colossus, and would trade, at best, evenly with stalkers. The goliath does not solve Terran mech's current problems versus Protoss.
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On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units.That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all...
The goliath pretty much identical to the Thor's role. Its meant to be decently strong GtG and relatively stronger GtA attacks. They differ in which type of air unit thy excel against but generally are the same. The Thor has the drawback of being a terrible meatshield unlike the goliath because its large and awkward as hell, and it has energy for a bad on use ability that gets it mashed by HTs.
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On August 15 2012 01:51 CptCutter wrote:
you guys really shouldnt complain until at least the beta has started. you have no idea on how it will play out.
bla bla bla.. heard this a hundred times.. still doesn't change this first point he's trying to make. Helllla ugly.
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The fundamental problem with the Warhound is that it's not a mech unit. Sure it's produced in a factory, but it's basically a giant marine without stim. It walks, it shoots like a marine, and gives up no mobility for that firepower (unlike Thors & tanks).
If they want to make mech more viable, I'd recommend not making other units so good at killing tanks (pretty much everything protoss has). If they must add a unit to terran factory, then they need to make it less a movey and more positional based. That's what makes terran so unique, tanks make them a very position army that the other armies lack. This is a very important art in RTS that unfortunately blizzard seems to suck at. Defenders advantage, high ground, flanking, and army position just aren't as important without something like the siege tank.
TL:DR It's a big marine produced from the factory, not a mech unit
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On August 16 2012 01:24 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 01:00 baba1 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units. That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... Whaaaaat? Are you sure you play Starcraft 2 ? How the hell do you compare Goliath to Vikings?? LOL! Vikings never needed that ground mode anyway, it's retarded and useless. Get rid of it. Bring back the GOLIATH because the warhound is god AWFUL! Replacing an awesome unit by a boring and ugly robot won't help at all... First, bringing back old units is a stupid move. It just makes this game, brood war, and that's just moving backward. So definitely no there. But even skipping that point. Vikings serve a similar role to Goliaths, absolutely, they just don't do one as well, but do another better. Goliath role in BW was to screen against air threats. Single, air threats, mostly for mech. They don't do that great against a ball of mutas, and they aren't spectacular on the ground either. Vikings serve a very similar role. They are meant to stay around the army, are easily and cheaply producable, and screen it against big air threats. In the middle of everyone whining about one-dimensional units, you suggest removing usefulness from the viking by removing its ground mode. While, it isn't meant to be in that mode frequently, it is DEFINITELY used and should never be removed. Landing on tank lines can do a lot of damage, and there is potential for harassment when landing in mineral lines. There are a number of uses that just make what you said completely wrong and short-sighted. Goliath would be useless. You would never build it, it would suck, it does not help at all against colossus, and would trade, at best, evenly with stalkers. The goliath does not solve Terran mech's current problems versus Protoss.
See, while I agree about the Goliath's and Viking's role similarities, they aren't comparable.
Viking comes from a starport and is not a 'mech unit'. While it has a lot of mobility because it's a flying unit, it loses a lot of it when it comes to transforming in a battle. The transformation is clumsy and slow.
I've never seen in over 2 years of Sc2 a strategy that involved ground mode vikings so stop saying that we already have 'goliaths' in Sc2.
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On August 16 2012 01:12 GinDo wrote:
Here's what we want Blizzard. Or at least what I could derive from this thread.
1) 2 food
2) Goliath cost
3) Some anti Air. Doesn't have to be Terrible Terrible Damage.
4) Mobile
This unit doesn't even need to have splash Air. Goliaths used cost efficiency and sheer numbers to deal with Muta flocks. Maybe this unit should get Long Range, and Vikings range nerfed to 4-5 with splash to SUPPORT standard AA against huge flocks. Not to mention a Raven HSM buff would help deter huge flocks.
A unit like that will not 1a in to a siege line and kill it. Killing tanks is one of the main roles of the mechanical marauder, people forget that. THAT is the real problem and why it looks so stupid against protoss.
Imagine TvT, mech vs mech, with those robots running around and killing each other...it counters all factory units, including itself lol
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On August 16 2012 01:25 Zach_Attack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units.That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... The goliath pretty much identical to the Thor's role. Its meant to be decently strong GtG and relatively stronger GtA attacks. They differ in which type of air unit thy excel against but generally are the same. The Thor has the drawback of being a terrible meatshield unlike the goliath because its large and awkward as hell, and it has energy for a bad on use ability that gets it mashed by HTs.
Wow, really? So, next thing you are going to tell me is that both Baneling and Ultralisk have the same role, because they both do AoE damage, the thing that one does bonus to light and other does bonus do armored doesn't matter at all?
I think you don't understand what people mean by "role". GtA attack isn't a role, unit role is to counter certain type of units, and/or to soak damage for some other units that deal great damage etc. Goliath have completely opposite role of the Thor, it is good against completely different targets than Thor is.
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On August 16 2012 01:12 GinDo wrote:
Here's what we want Blizzard. Or at least what I could derive from this thread.
1) 2 food
2) Goliath cost
3) Some anti Air. Doesn't have to be Terrible Terrible Damage.
4) Mobile
This unit doesn't even need to have splash Air. Goliaths used cost efficiency and sheer numbers to deal with Muta flocks. Maybe this unit should get Long Range, and Vikings range nerfed to 4-5 with splash to SUPPORT standard AA against huge flocks. Not to mention a Raven HSM buff would help deter huge flocks.
With the widow mines, I don't think alternative anti air will be necessary. And the Warhound almost the same speed as a stalker, which is pretty mobile. It is faster than any unstimmed bio unit.
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On August 16 2012 01:12 GinDo wrote:
Here's what we want Blizzard. Or at least what I could derive from this thread.
1) 2 food
2) Goliath cost
3) Some anti Air. Doesn't have to be Terrible Terrible Damage.
4) Mobile
This unit doesn't even need to have splash Air. Goliaths used cost efficiency and sheer numbers to deal with Muta flocks. Maybe this unit should get Long Range, and Vikings range nerfed to 4-5 with splash to SUPPORT standard AA against huge flocks. Not to mention a Raven HSM buff would help deter huge flocks.
goliath too? well then give my my beefy dragoon back.
Thou I do wish they would change vikings a bit like you said cuz they deal with 2/3's of protoss higher tech
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Remove haywire missiles, add a PROPER AA not the shitty AA that the Thor has. Something like 20 damage with a 1.5 or 2 second attack cooldown and 8 range. Also make it automatically use the air attack against Colossus. Maybe also slow it's movement speed down a bit to be more mechish (I don't know what it is right now but a bit slower). I KNOW this makes it almost identical to Goliath but come on guys...it would just be such a better designed unit. I'm sure Blizzard can think of a way to make it different enough to justify bringing in a very similar unit.
This will do a bunch of things - make the unit less "A-click" because haywire missiles are just auto attack damage.
Make PURE MECH actually viable like it was in Brood War, and i was BEAUTIFUL to watch.
Terran won't be forced to get Vikings versus ANY heavy air play. Tank/goliath/vulture was such a cool and well designed composition, we can get something at least close with proper AA mech support unit. Just imagine hellions zipping around scouting and harassing, while Warhounds protect tanks while they set up and give them AA support. Add in stronger tank anti-armor damage and Terran would be PERFECT again and a pleasure to watch.
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Just move Vikings to the Factory (armory required), buff their ground Damage (or just don't make them armored anymore). Increase their transform time and let them profit from ground upgrades.
Voilà "new" Gholiat with a tweak.
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On August 16 2012 01:25 Zach_Attack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 00:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:34 Zach_Attack wrote:On August 16 2012 00:24 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 16 2012 00:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I posted like, a 1300 word post on this somewhere else, with a good few suggestions. I don't know I just feel a lot of good constructive posts get buried amongst 'I like it' 'I dislike it' posts that don't expand upon anything and are just made to boost people's post counts. Thus a thread that contains a lot of good debate gains the appearance of a back-and-forth whinefest.
These threads have seen some pretty good critiquing, and even alternative ideas. At the very least it's pretty clear that the unit is very, very unpopular here. That said perhaps the Bnet forums are showing a positive response for all I know. Blizzard are paid to design the game, I mean it's their job to come up with the solutions. While considering community suggestions can open the floodgates, and make it difficult to get anything done, there's some good ideas on TL especially if they cared to look around (which they claim to).
Sorry btw for beligerent postage earlier man, frigging exam stress, plus I'm still unable to play the game since the carcrash that was patch 1.5, bit on edge! I know, but that is what I've said, there are like 5% of those good posts, that give Blizzard suggestion on what to change. I saw your post earlier, just wasn't able to read it because I was at work. And majority of posts look like this: Just do it Blizzard.
Put GOLIATH back !!
PLEASE!! Even though they have said that they don't want to add any old units back, people still ask for them. In one preview Blizzard said they were going to make the warhound essentially the goliath. It was going to have AA, ground attack and they were going to ditch the thor. It seems pretty reasonable to ask for the old version of the warhound aka the goliath especially because if seems to fulfill both the warhound's and the thor's roles better. If they want to keep the thor they need to make the warhound's ground combat ability in line with the golaiths. But that is the point, it isn't Goliath, it maybe feels a bit like Goliath, but it will be just a smaller Thor, with really strong GtG attack and AoE GtA attack. You can ask for that, but asking for Goliath is retarded, especially because we already have the Goliath, and it is called Viking, it is almost the same as Goliath, expect that he has to be in Air mode to have Air Attack. Goliath doesn't even have the same role as a Thor, Goliath have long range GtA attack that is great vs. large units(in other words, armored in SC2), and pretty weak GtG attack vs. Large units, but better for smaller units. Thor has AoE GtA attack that is great vs. small(light) units, has huge burst potential for GtG, which is good vs. large(armored) units.That is why the "old" Warhound wasn't even close to the Goliath(except that it was more mobile than Thor), but it actually was the small Thor, it countered all units that Thor does, and served the same purpose. I want to see you fighting Mutas if we remove the Thor and replace it with Goliath that is pretty terrible vs. Mutas(make its air attack strong as Viking's). It just doesn't work that way, you have to look from every angle, and to understand what will that break and what will that make. To be honest, I also liked the old Warhound, but I don't necessarily mean that this one is awful, this one for me, has quite good concept and because of its speed, it can be microed, and you can kite with it. We will have to wait and see, but whining "BAAAAAH AWFUL! I WANT MY GOLIATH BACK!" won't help at all... The goliath pretty much identical to the Thor's role. Its meant to be decently strong GtG and relatively stronger GtA attacks. They differ in which type of air unit thy excel against but generally are the same. The Thor has the drawback of being a terrible meatshield unlike the goliath because its large and awkward as hell, and it has energy for a bad on use ability that gets it mashed by HTs.
You could make this argument about reaver-> colossus, vulture-> hellion, infestor->defiler, ... similar roles but one seems a lot better than the other for some reason. If Browder wants a good game he should stop making stupid knockoffs of broodwar units and actually make something interesting.
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its best a-move anti-ground unit in the game, pretty much only counter to it is mass immortals and you need to have full supply of immortals to counter them(couple of imortals wont do anything..), not only that if you spread and a move your Warhound's they will beat same supply of tanks(helions wont help, hi hayfire missile), not only that warhounds > any bio composition. not only that even though they dont have any + vs light, they still destroy any light unit, basically this is best anti ground unit in the game, add to that best anti air (viking) and we will see warhound + hellion + viking compo every game, with couple of tanks and mines around the map.
Not saying thats bad, but mass warhounds > mass ultras....srsly im terran myself, i acknowledge that warhound atm is op.
What they could do is remove some hp, remove some price, remove haywire add proper anti air, ups we have a goliath :D . srsly just bring back goliath.
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EPT
