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It was clear in BW that she acted on her own will. She clearly had her old memories which were referenced several times duiring True Colors. It'd be a pretty hard sell to convince us that Kerrigan would make things so very personal if she were not her original self.
...and the overmind makes it pretty clear that he has allowed Kerrigan to keep her "ferocity of spirit"... or something like that. And the fact that she passes up at least two perfect opportunities to eliminate Jim... yeah, we were definitely meant to believe that it was same Kerrigan who we met before Tarsonis, and I'm not even gonna dignify any statements to the contrary with a response.
What about now though? It's kind of ambiguious in my opinion. The end of the campaign where she's all cheerleader like with her "don't give up jim" and "You'll pay for this treachery" duality is... interesting. But I think it's important to note that when Jim met her for the first time since transfiguration this:
"Is that really you?"
"To an extent. I am something far greater than I once was Jim. You can't imagine how this feels"
And Hansen says something about the artifact absorbing zerg dna at a molecular level or something like that so maybe it's not impossible that the artifact messed with her brain while it was still charging to full energy and perhaps let the nice Sarah slip for a short moment.
There seems to be a large difference between Kerrigan of BW and WoL too... in BW I have a feeling that she still had some scraps of humanity and mercy, but then the zerg come back and suddenly there are billions dead within a single day! I don't know if she were any nicer back in the good old days, but if she were then it would seem like she has completely lost it.
But enough about me, what does everyone else think?
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Personally I think WoL seems to have sort of skimmed over Brood War. The Dominion is still in power, the UED is nowhere in sight, and Jim is still trying to save Kerrigan. If you'll recall, the whole "Kerrigan I can save you!" plot arch was already solved in Brood War.
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Yep, and a plot device brought it back. The Dominion didn't stop been in power and the UED were just a temporary set back for them. Are you calling it a failure or something?
It's all well and good to bring the UED back, but they need a reason. Can you think of one? I recall the UED only came so that they could take control of the Zerg and add them to their arsenal of weaponry. They needed an overmind for that, and the overmind is now dead. Why would the UED be back? Revenge? That wouldn't be practical. Resources? Surely there are enough resources for them in however many lightyears there are between earth and Dominion space.
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I think Kerrigan in BW is the sneakiest, manipulative FFA player that ever existed in the history of Starcraft.
In SC2 well she's just the force 'o destruction.
Let's hope in HotS we learn all the dirty secrets about her.
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sneaky really isn't Kerrigans style to be honest. She was reborn as a force of destruction, and only manipulated because she was down and out. Alternative would have been to just run away and hope for the protoss to take out the overmind, but that's not really her style either.
Am I the only one around here who has the feeling that Kerrigans manipulations on Shakuras only worked because she was protected by plot armor? Especially the part where she kills Aldaris and Zeratul doesn't even threaten to hurt her. Just seems really unlikely.
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It seems to me that as time went on, she embraced the QoB side of her personality more and more and suppressed the Sarah Kerrigan part. Think of people who have been in solitary confinement for years and years, or who have been tortured. It warps their personalities in ways which are truly mind boggling, turning them into completely different people (and thats with out the Zerg infestation!). Sarah was in there the whole time, but she was fighting a loosing battle.
I imagine that when Kerrigan became aware of Jim's intentions to reverse the infestation, she would have had a massive mental/emotional/psychological struggle. Sarah clearly wanted to be saved, but the Queen of Blades was terrified of loosing everything that she had built over the past four years (and of loosing her power). It is also important to remember that at this point Kerrigan has killed billions of people, and if the Queen of Blades dies, Sarah will be forced to live with that guilt. This guilt would make it easier for Kerrigan to submit more and more to the Queen of Blades. As Sarah, she has to live with the knowledge that she has destroyed everything she ever cared about, but as the Queen of Blades she is freed from her guilt.
I imagine something akin to the ending of Fight Club was going on back in the Hive cluster while Jim was busy launching his final assault. For those of you who have never seen Fight Club, it focuses on someone with a split personality who's alter ego forms a terrorist organization which plans to destroy modern society and cause the world to revert to a hunter/gatherer system. At the films climax, the main character fights back against this other person (Tyler Durden) in an attempt to stop the bombings.
I think that the message "Don't give up Jim" comes when Sarah gains a momentary advantage and has control over Kerrigan's psyonic abilities (or at least some of them). The fact that the Sarah Kerrigan portrait is used for that message makes it all the more apparent that there are these two distinct "people" fighting for control of Kerrigan.
I am incredibly interested to learn what happens after WoL. The idea that Kerrigan could be saved never came into my mind at any point in the past 12 years, so the possibilities here are truly endless.
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On October 15 2010 01:28 Billy_ wrote:Am I the only one around here who has the feeling that Kerrigans manipulations on Shakuras only worked because she was protected by plot armor? Especially the part where she kills Aldaris and Zeratul doesn't even threaten to hurt her. Just seems really unlikely.
I understand, and to some extent agree with you. However, it is important to realize that until then Kerrigan had been under the control of the Overmind. Jim, Zeratul et al had never seen the "true" Kerrigan since her transformation, so the idea that she could be, if not a force for good, at least a reasoning, rational person, is not that far fetched. Zeratul and Jim know who she was before the transformation, and now that she is no longer a pawn of the Overmind, its possible that they thought they could reach that part of her (think of Luke's attempt to save his father at the end of Return of the Jedi).
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I'd like to think some part of the overmind survived in Kerrigan. While the overmind is essentially dead, remember that it encompasses the entire will of the swarm - so while its scheming brain has been destroyed, its instinct to consume, evolve and manipulate still exists in every zerg - including Kerrigan, in the form of a cerebral infestation.
It could also be that sensing the imminent defeat of the 3 races, Kerrigan, while initially adopting a fatalistic view of the situation, would eventually become more humanised towards the later chapters. Why? Because the zerg part of her knows that it cannot evolve or consume in such a way that she could defeat the hybrids. She was previously the queen bitch on her path to ascension, which was why she was so conniving and seemingly irredeemable. When faced with the knowledge of inevitable defeat, it is quite obvious that one would be rather disenchanted.
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Perhaps she recognised his resourcefulness. Perhaps she knew that if they joined forces, something might work out. The fact is that towards the climax of WoL, she realised that she needed Raynor as much as he needed her.
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On October 15 2010 02:01 SoaDMTGguy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 01:28 Billy_ wrote:Am I the only one around here who has the feeling that Kerrigans manipulations on Shakuras only worked because she was protected by plot armor? Especially the part where she kills Aldaris and Zeratul doesn't even threaten to hurt her. Just seems really unlikely. I understand, and to some extent agree with you. However, it is important to realize that until then Kerrigan had been under the control of the Overmind. Jim, Zeratul et al had never seen the "true" Kerrigan since her transformation, so the idea that she could be, if not a force for good, at least a reasoning, rational person, is not that far fetched. Zeratul and Jim know who she was before the transformation, and now that she is no longer a pawn of the Overmind, its possible that they thought they could reach that part of her (think of Luke's attempt to save his father at the end of Return of the Jedi).
Did Kerrigan even accomplish anything by showing herself? Seems to me that she was just there cause Blizzard thought it would be cool. Maybe she figured that the toss would need her help on Char, but that's about the only advantage they gained by not leaving her behind because Zeratul him self confirms that he knew where at least on of the crystals were... Maybe if the plot were altered so that Kerrigan met Zeratul earlier and assited against the Zerg by giving out tactical advice to defeat the two cerebrates. I know that's what Duran would have tried to do, and that guy managed to play everyone like the were fools.
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On October 15 2010 02:39 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 02:01 SoaDMTGguy wrote:On October 15 2010 01:28 Billy_ wrote:Am I the only one around here who has the feeling that Kerrigans manipulations on Shakuras only worked because she was protected by plot armor? Especially the part where she kills Aldaris and Zeratul doesn't even threaten to hurt her. Just seems really unlikely. I understand, and to some extent agree with you. However, it is important to realize that until then Kerrigan had been under the control of the Overmind. Jim, Zeratul et al had never seen the "true" Kerrigan since her transformation, so the idea that she could be, if not a force for good, at least a reasoning, rational person, is not that far fetched. Zeratul and Jim know who she was before the transformation, and now that she is no longer a pawn of the Overmind, its possible that they thought they could reach that part of her (think of Luke's attempt to save his father at the end of Return of the Jedi). Did Kerrigan even accomplish anything by showing herself? Seems to me that she was just there cause Blizzard thought it would be cool. Maybe she figured that the toss would need her help on Char, but that's about the only advantage they gained by not leaving her behind because Zeratul him self confirms that he knew where at least on of the crystals were... Maybe if the plot were altered so that Kerrigan met Zeratul earlier and assited against the Zerg by giving out tactical advice to defeat the two cerebrates. I know that's what Duran would have tried to do, and that guy managed to play everyone like the were fools.
Kerrigan wanted the protoss to survive because only the the dark templar energies can truly harm the Overmind and its cerebrates. So by helping the protoss she made 100% sure the zerg on Shakuras are destroyed weakening her zerg enemies and with Razsagal under her control she knew when the time comes she will have dark templar support.
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Yeah... well I think Kerrigan kind of screwed up if she were trying to help them because that civil war couldn't have helped.
The only way that it could be considered as a success would be if Kerrigan were the only reason that they could find the second crystal, much less fight their way to it. But the game didn't communicate that to me very clearly.
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On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW.
Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense.
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Obviously Kerrigan and Zeratul both know what is going on with you know who. The Dark Voice. Kerrigan even knows that Dr. Narud is Duran or a Puppet of The Dark Voice. Dr. Narud is a high level scientist working for the Dominion.
Therefore, Kerrigan attacking the Dominion doesn't seem like such a bad idea, if it means the fate of the Universe?
In the last level she even says that she wanted the Xel'naga Artifact.
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On October 15 2010 09:48 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense.
There was strong emotion between them in the games too. Are you going to attempt to convince me that Kerrigan let Jim survive on Korhal on a whim? Or on Char, after he failed to reach her in time when she was in the chrysalis? There were other hints peppered around the campaign, like the chasracter development at the end of true colors. You don't try and appeal to a persons conscience ("how many must die before you realise what a monster you've become?") unless there is some part of you that is still hopeful. It was not just a simple death threat when it is prefaced by a plea for redemption.
It makes sense if you have a grasp for sublety. And if not... well, then we get people like you.
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Jim and Kerrigan being involved isnt too far of a stretch considering their relationship.
Jim suddenly growing a heart and wanting to save Kerrigan IS a stretch She killed His (From what I can tell) best friend Fenix killed Duke destroyed a few planets and various other atrocities.
However in the storyline of BS there was the Crystal Zeratul gave to Jim (which surprisingly had no entrance explanation at the end game) which would've made Jim not say a crummy line.
Kerrigan living with remorse not likely she was a ghost before infestation serial killings and mayhem is daily life.
Right now my biggest problem is the whole Jedi thing with the overmind and the complete overlook of Duran during the campaign (In BW Zeratul encountered Duran I believe on his journey to find Artanis)
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On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:48 Offhand wrote:On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense. There was strong emotion between them in the games too. Are you going to attempt to convince me that Kerrigan let Jim survive on Korhal on a whim? Or on Char, after he failed to reach her in time when she was in the chrysalis? There were other hints peppered around the campaign, like the chasracter development at the end of true colors. You don't try and appeal to a persons conscience ("how many must die before you realise what a monster you've become?") unless there is some part of you that is still hopeful. It was not just a simple death threat when it is prefaced by a plea for redemption. It makes sense if you have a grasp for sublety. And if not... well, then we get people like you.
Or it's fully fleshed out in hack books by terrible authors and you associate every small communication between two people as being hopelessly in love. Christ, this is the kind of crap you see on erotic fandom sites.
There are exactly two moments in vanilla you could attempt to interpret as the WoL campaign would want you to. First, when Raynor/Kerrigan first meet. Second, when Kerrigan is left on Tarsonis. Anything following that is grasping at straws because the situations you outlined are obviously pleas for sanity/peace. Not two people secretly being in love. It's bad writing, it's been retconned a dozen times since BW, it doesn't make sense given the context of the original story.
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Or it's fully fleshed out in hack books by terrible authors and you associate every small communication between two people as being hopelessly in love.
Unnecessary.
Christ, this is the kind of crap you see on erotic fandom sites.
o_O how do you know?
First, when Raynor/Kerrigan first meet. Second, when Kerrigan is left on Tarsonis.
Human.
Anything following that is grasping at straws because the situations you outlined are obviously pleas for sanity/peace.
Not human.
It's bad writing, it's been retconned a dozen times since BW, it doesn't make sense given the context of the original story.
Rich,
Technically the QoB died when she got infested by humanity, so the promise for revenge was kept in a sense. There was no "love" after their first meeting on Char. It's mostly just guilt in WoL until a potential cure has been found. It's not bad writing, it is character development. The 3 games in one format of the original campaigns kind of forced Blizzard to rush the character development, so maybe that's why they commisioned and approved of the novels.
Now, go and convince yourself that I'm wrong and that pre-infested Sarah who protested multiple times against Arcturus would just go around killing and torturing people gratutiously.
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Billy, I understand you're trying to prove your point, but try to refrain from the personal attacks. Things like
On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:
It makes sense if you have a grasp for sublety. And if not... well, then we get people like you.
are not necessary. I agree with Offhand that it was not shown very often in vanilla that there was this romantic relationship between the two.
On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 09:48 Offhand wrote:On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense. There was strong emotion between them in the games too. Are you going to attempt to convince me that Kerrigan let Jim survive on Korhal on a whim? Or on Char, after he failed to reach her in time when she was in the chrysalis? There were other hints peppered around the campaign, like the chasracter development at the end of true colors. You don't try and appeal to a persons conscience ("how many must die before you realise what a monster you've become?") unless there is some part of you that is still hopeful. It was not just a simple death threat when it is prefaced by a plea for redemption.
Let's get one thing straight: strong emotion does not equate to romantic love. There are plenty of reasons why Jim and Kerrigan acted the way they did in vanilla that could have nothing to do with them being in love with each other.
WoL took the story in the "boy loves girl" direction, and while I do feel that this creates a contrived, overly-simplistic storyline, vanilla was just ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. My gripe, as I've said in a previous thread, was with the poor execution.
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On October 15 2010 10:37 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:On October 15 2010 09:48 Offhand wrote:On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense. There was strong emotion between them in the games too. Are you going to attempt to convince me that Kerrigan let Jim survive on Korhal on a whim? Or on Char, after he failed to reach her in time when she was in the chrysalis? There were other hints peppered around the campaign, like the chasracter development at the end of true colors. You don't try and appeal to a persons conscience ("how many must die before you realise what a monster you've become?") unless there is some part of you that is still hopeful. It was not just a simple death threat when it is prefaced by a plea for redemption. It makes sense if you have a grasp for sublety. And if not... well, then we get people like you. Or it's fully fleshed out in hack books by terrible authors and you associate every small communication between two people as being hopelessly in love. Christ, this is the kind of crap you see on erotic fandom sites. There are exactly two moments in vanilla you could attempt to interpret as the WoL campaign would want you to. First, when Raynor/Kerrigan first meet. Second, when Kerrigan is left on Tarsonis. Anything following that is grasping at straws because the situations you outlined are obviously pleas for sanity/peace. Not two people secretly being in love. It's bad writing, it's been retconned a dozen times since BW, it doesn't make sense given the context of the original story.
I don't think they were secretly in love. I don't think it had gotten that far. Remember, the time between when they first met and when Mengsk abandond her on Tarsonis was very small, and what with the whole "trying to overthrown a dictator while simultaniously fighting two ultra advanced cililizations bent on killing us" thing, the only time they would be together would be in briefings and on missions. Not really enough time to start a relationship. Rather, I think they were still in the "mutual crush" stage. Sneeking glanses at each other in the hall way, so to speak.
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On October 15 2010 11:34 strongwind wrote:Billy, I understand you're trying to prove your point, but try to refrain from the personal attacks. Things like Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:
It makes sense if you have a grasp for sublety. And if not... well, then we get people like you. are not necessary. I agree with Offhand that it was not shown very often in vanilla that there was this romantic relationship between the two. Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 10:09 Billy_ wrote:On October 15 2010 09:48 Offhand wrote:On October 15 2010 02:16 shadymmj wrote:
Part of her is still fond of Raynor - that was why she spared him in BW. Raynor/Kerrigan being madly in love was something invented later in the books, it had no part of either the vanilla or BW campaign. Which is the primary reason the WoL campaign makes little to no sense. There was strong emotion between them in the games too. Are you going to attempt to convince me that Kerrigan let Jim survive on Korhal on a whim? Or on Char, after he failed to reach her in time when she was in the chrysalis? There were other hints peppered around the campaign, like the chasracter development at the end of true colors. You don't try and appeal to a persons conscience ("how many must die before you realise what a monster you've become?") unless there is some part of you that is still hopeful. It was not just a simple death threat when it is prefaced by a plea for redemption. Let's get one thing straight: strong emotion does not equate to romantic love. There are plenty of reasons why Jim and Kerrigan acted the way they did in vanilla that could have nothing to do with them being in love with each other. WoL took the story in the "boy loves girl" direction, and while I do feel that this creates a contrived, overly-simplistic storyline, vanilla was just ambiguous enough to allow this to happen. My gripe, as I've said in a previous thread, was with the poor execution.
I wasn't attempting to equate it to romance. It was established early on the Raynor wanted to bone her, but I've not seen a single thing in any of the SC games that she felt the same way apart from that vague "knight in shining armor" comment. I feel like the WoL story still works based on jims feeling responsible for Kerrigan and by extension billions of deaths.
Regardless, any discussion of Kerrigans romantic feelings is almost pure speculation, but the fact that she cared about Jim enough to not kill him is unquestionable because she goes so far as to defy a direct order from the overmind ("Let not a terran survive")by refusing to kill Jim. I think it makes for a compelling enough reason for Jim to want to try and "save" her, or to reinfest her with humanity using a Xel'Naga plot device if you prefer to put it that way.
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EPT
