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Brutal NUR, Marine only - Page 9

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Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
December 10 2010 04:29 GMT
#161
Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
December 10 2010 06:30 GMT
#162
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote:
Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...


I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.
Rise Up!
shoop
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom228 Posts
December 10 2010 16:52 GMT
#163
On December 10 2010 15:30 undyinglight wrote:
I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.


On Brutal? Sounds great. Are you getting upgrades then? I might try this on Hard for fun!
Sarang
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia2363 Posts
December 10 2010 22:15 GMT
#164
On December 10 2010 15:30 undyinglight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote:
Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...


I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.


Wait, what? On brutal? I don't see how that's possible.

Shiladie, don't worry, we're patient! Good luck for when you DO start trying again. =)
"Killer helped me feel better before coming to the arena. He told me to say that." - Bomber
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
January 24 2011 06:39 GMT
#165
On December 11 2010 07:15 Moonloop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 15:30 undyinglight wrote:
On December 10 2010 13:29 Shiladie wrote:
Heh, I swath of new subscribers on my youtube channel caught my attention that this thread had probably been bumped. I unfortunately have not had time to continue attempts, as I am between work contracts, and thus spending most of my time looking for new work. I promise once I get a new job I'll be back at this...


I will be looking forward to it. You inspired me to do a Mercenary only run.


Wait, what? On brutal? I don't see how that's possible.

Shiladie, don't worry, we're patient! Good luck for when you DO start trying again. =)


I know someone has gotten it on hard, been to busy to go at it myself.

About doing this with Marines only though, this is a tough one.

How about this suggestion, can this mission be done vs air? One would have to use BCs alone to take care of the Broodlords, unless they get to close. Marines do pretty well vs mutas as is. The biggest problem vs air though would seem to be the Leviathan, I can not think of a practical way to take it out. Yamato, then clear the area with Nova, then go at it with 3/3 supply cap of Marines? This is just a suggestion. Perhaps mass repair a Barracks wall in front of the artifact to hold off the Broodlords, with Marines behind it to kill the Broodlings?

Does anyone have any other suggestions to do this vs air?

I was telling my friends IRL about this run and they all thought it was super awesome, and wanted to see it completed, so I just thought to throw out the vs air possibility. Perhaps this will breathe some fresh ideas into this thread.
Rise Up!
shoop
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom228 Posts
January 24 2011 10:58 GMT
#166
@undyinglight: I did the thread about mercs only, I was probably the second person to complete it on hard. (I edited that thread so it now credits you for this idea). It is tricky but a lot easier than brutal NUR marines It may well be doable on brutal, the most substantial difficulty will be in the first ten or so missions.

Wrt all-in air: great, some fresh ideas. I'm sceptical though: if you don't have the hive mind emulators I think it's pretty much just harder than all-in ground.

Here's another idea. I haven't got a clue if it would work, but here goes.

Starting point is the notion that buildings bunkers may in fact not be optimal for this mission. You can only put four marines in an unupgraded bunker, which limits the maximum number of marines per surface area. This means you can deal less damage per second, giving attacking forces the time to do substantial damage.

You could consider simply not building the bunkers, but instead macroing out the largest crap ton of 3/3 upgraded marines imaginable (double eng bay). In place of a bunker with 4 marines firing, you would simply have 9 marines firing. Sure they would fall quickly, but they would kill stuff a lot faster. You also have the resources to replenish pretty quickly.

As usual in starcraft, make sure that at all stages you have the maximum possible number of marines, as having more marines will reduce the number of losses in every engagement. If you have spare time, use it to position marines closer together so that they can really do the most insane amounts of damage possible, and/or to move damaged marines to the back of the "wall". You also may need to micro a bit to deal with hydras, and, obviously, the nydus worms.

Could this be made to work?
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
January 24 2011 20:58 GMT
#167
On January 24 2011 19:58 shoop wrote:
@undyinglight: I did the thread about mercs only, I was probably the second person to complete it on hard. (I edited that thread so it now credits you for this idea). It is tricky but a lot easier than brutal NUR marines It may well be doable on brutal, the most substantial difficulty will be in the first ten or so missions.

Wrt all-in air: great, some fresh ideas. I'm sceptical though: if you don't have the hive mind emulators I think it's pretty much just harder than all-in ground.

Here's another idea. I haven't got a clue if it would work, but here goes.

Starting point is the notion that buildings bunkers may in fact not be optimal for this mission. You can only put four marines in an unupgraded bunker, which limits the maximum number of marines per surface area. This means you can deal less damage per second, giving attacking forces the time to do substantial damage.

You could consider simply not building the bunkers, but instead macroing out the largest crap ton of 3/3 upgraded marines imaginable (double eng bay). In place of a bunker with 4 marines firing, you would simply have 9 marines firing. Sure they would fall quickly, but they would kill stuff a lot faster. You also have the resources to replenish pretty quickly.

As usual in starcraft, make sure that at all stages you have the maximum possible number of marines, as having more marines will reduce the number of losses in every engagement. If you have spare time, use it to position marines closer together so that they can really do the most insane amounts of damage possible, and/or to move damaged marines to the back of the "wall". You also may need to micro a bit to deal with hydras, and, obviously, the nydus worms.

Could this be made to work?


Thanks for the credit man, been to busy with work and school to get far with my own concept, plus my computer is very slow so even on lowest settings any kind of screen-cap will kill my fps. Have you seen the video where Shiladie attempts all in vs worms, he actually attempts what you are suggesting behind a Barracks wall. It seems he can hold off reasonably well until the final waves spawn, there just seem to be to many units attacking his base to fend off even if he had a supply cap of 3/3 Marines. The Nova hasn't recharged from the last Kerrigan attack either. Perhaps he could somehow beat one of the Kerrigan attacks without a Nova? As Shiladie said earlier in the thread though it is the Hunter Killers that are the problem, they basically 2 hit Marines with 0.83 attack speed. Perhaps if he moved both of his Siege Tanks to the side Kerrigan was coming from and used some SCVs as cannon fodder he might possibly hold off Kerrigan without a Nova? Perhaps he could try to use his Banshees/BCs and reload if Kerrigan kills them. Those are some thoughts vs worms anyways. Any suggestions are welcome vs Worms or Air.
Rise Up!
shoop
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom228 Posts
January 24 2011 22:07 GMT
#168
On January 25 2011 05:58 undyinglight wrote:
Have you seen the video where Shiladie attempts all in vs worms, he actually attempts what you are suggesting behind a Barracks wall. It seems he can hold off reasonably well until the final waves spawn, there just seem to be to many units attacking his base to fend off even if he had a supply cap of 3/3 Marines. The Nova hasn't recharged from the last Kerrigan attack either. Perhaps he could somehow beat one of the Kerrigan attacks without a Nova? As Shiladie said earlier in the thread though it is the Hunter Killers that are the problem, they basically 2 hit Marines with 0.83 attack speed.


I have to admit I haven't watched it, ok so that doesn't work I'm now out of ideas.
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-25 00:22:21
January 24 2011 23:07 GMT
#169
Here they are:

Part 1


Part 2


Edit:

Shiladie, you seem to have lost quite a few Marines at the 65.3% save when you fought Kerrigan. Do you think that you could attempt from there and try to save a few more Marines? It seems to do this, if it is possible you would have to attempt to have as close to 200/200 as possible and prepare your high ground defenses surrounding the artifact well ahead of time. Perhaps even remain on the low ground but build Barracks on either side of your Marines so they can't even climb the ramp to the artifact? On top of this with a Nova saved from earlier? Perhaps more SCVs mining so you can have more minerals. This may just do the trick but it is sounding like you would need impeccable micro/macro and 300 APM to pull it off. Mass repair is a must no matter where you decide to hold out.

Second Edit:

This maybe a little impractical but I am trying to give any input I can about how to accomplish this. Do you think you could possibly set up a bunker system across your base and quickly move Marines from side to side using this tactic:



It seems like much more trouble than it could possibly be worth but I figured why not throw it on the table as brainstorming is what we need right now.
Rise Up!
nakam
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden245 Posts
March 06 2011 19:38 GMT
#170
Have you concidered trying how high you can get on ladder with this?
TL Local Timezone Script - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277156
tyir
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada15 Posts
March 07 2011 00:43 GMT
#171
MKP almost won GSL with it.


Jokes, jokes!
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
March 07 2011 01:14 GMT
#172
Another suggestion, many strategies I see players try to move their defenses inward, however this guy had the interesting idea of moving his base outward. Although this was done on hard and not brutal perhaps his simcity can be effective in helping to destroy some of the worms as they come up, and can be a shorter retreat route back to safety for sniping off some of the far off worms. This could possibly have some promise to it.



Rise Up!
Godstorm
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Romania845 Posts
March 07 2011 07:12 GMT
#173
Gl with all-in. Man that shit was hard even without any constraints lol, i always kept dying at 99%. Also you're gonna need to control your marines really well when kerrigan shows up since if you get caught in the psi storm you lose them all, i guess loads of bunkers and splitting them up is the best way. Waiting for the vods ^^!
"It's not that he's dumb, he's just neural parasited by a retarded infestor"-Day 9
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 07 2011 22:32 GMT
#174
I now have a steady job again for a while, and I have 2 nights a week on average that I can be playing SC2, I'll probably get at least a couple hours of attempts in a week now, and keep people posted with details. I might look into streaming that + my high diamond zerg laddering for the 1-2 people that may be interested


Shiladie, you seem to have lost quite a few Marines at the 65.3% save when you fought Kerrigan. Do you think that you could attempt from there and try to save a few more Marines? It seems to do this, if it is possible you would have to attempt to have as close to 200/200 as possible and prepare your high ground defenses surrounding the artifact well ahead of time. Perhaps even remain on the low ground but build Barracks on either side of your Marines so they can't even climb the ramp to the artifact? On top of this with a Nova saved from earlier? Perhaps more SCVs mining so you can have more minerals. This may just do the trick but it is sounding like you would need impeccable micro/macro and 300 APM to pull it off. Mass repair is a must no matter where you decide to hold out.

I'll give this positioning a look, I found I needed to be close enough inwards that my marines would be near enough to pull back to deal with worms in the base as well though.


Perhaps if he moved both of his Siege Tanks to the side Kerrigan was coming from and used some SCVs as cannon fodder he might possibly hold off Kerrigan without a Nova? Perhaps he could try to use his Banshees/BCs and reload if Kerrigan kills them. Those are some thoughts vs worms anyways. Any suggestions are welcome vs Worms or Air.


Kerrigan has an ability that has a range a LITTLE shorter then a tank's range that 1-shots a mechanical unit, and has about a 5-8 second cooldown. If there are any mechanical units in her range, she'll cast that and insta-kill them. On top of that high damage shots get lowered due to a hardened shield type mechanic, so marines actually are fairly good vs her.

In response to other bits I'm not gonna bother quoting:
air is nearly impossible, not just due to broodlords, but because of critical mass of mutalisks, I made it to 40ish% the couple times I tried, and at that point the muta waves are big enough that if ALL your marines aren't in 1 spot firing at just mutas you get wiped out. And this is before the leviathan comes at all.

I killed the leviathan in the shatter the sky mission, but it isn't spawning broodlords/mutas constantly, and also isn't out overtop of hard to navigate no-mans-land where the marines or my base would get swarmed in the meantime anyways.

If I cannot end up doing this as stated, what do you guys think would be the 1 concession that would end up making this do-able but still as epic as possible:
Allowing merc marines (this is the one I'd try first, though I don't think it would be enough on it's own, perhaps combined with the combat shield+stim upgrades?)
Allowing marine upgrades (combat shield+stim)
Allowing marine/medic upgrades (still not building medics
Planetary fortress
Drop pods

If I do end up using one of these, I won't have given up on doing it without it, just that it would be worth having done first while still doing further attempts.
Gonff
Profile Joined May 2010
United States686 Posts
March 07 2011 23:47 GMT
#175
Congrats on the job man. I would say that if you totally hit a wall you should start making concessions in more or less the order that you posted them, although combat shield/stim would probably be the biggest boost for you so maybe try that last?
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 07 2011 23:51 GMT
#176
On March 08 2011 08:47 thedirtyleg wrote:
Congrats on the job man. I would say that if you totally hit a wall you should start making concessions in more or less the order that you posted them, although combat shield/stim would probably be the biggest boost for you so maybe try that last?


I think PF would be the biggest boost TBH, but I understand what you're saying. I don't know how good stim will be with the limited medic energy available though, I'd need to be very careful. It would be great for dealing with kerrigan though.
Combat shields would be very very sexy though, when considering 130 or so food is in marines, that's 1300 more hp right there...
undyinglight
Profile Joined December 2008
United States611 Posts
March 08 2011 01:09 GMT
#177
I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.

Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.

Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.
Rise Up!
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 08 2011 18:32 GMT
#178
On March 08 2011 10:09 undyinglight wrote:
I suggest giving it a shot with War Pigs before using any other upgrades as this will not undermine the "NUR" of the thread title. If War Pigs are still not viable, attempt it with upgrades to your non marine units/buildings that way you can still say you did it with no upgrades on the Marines.

Perhaps try to position both of your tanks at the magic spot just outside of the range of her range. The tanks would be more for Hunter Killers than Kerrigan herself. I assume she won't waste her ability on SCVs? since they are mechanical. The SCVs would be to absorb the hunter-killer hits anyway.

Right now I am attempting a Single player units only brutal run before I try to do my mercs brutal run.


mercs brutal should be fairly easy, unless you're going NUR

One I want to try is upgrades+research allowed, but only building SCVs. Essentially using the units I started with + PF
shoop
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom228 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-08 20:11:47
March 08 2011 20:11 GMT
#179
I don't think merc marines are worth the time: if you can do it with those, then you can also do it with regular marines. It's only 12 of them.

You could consider getting some of the bunker upgrades and use bunkers, but that would totally change all your planning.

Instead of PFs you could get perdition turrets to make it awesomer.

You could get psi disrupters.

Of all these options, I don't like marine upgrades, because they're too much like an admission of defeat. "Need to make them a bit stronger..." It's better if you get some weird and glaringly obvious advantage that is also less powerful. I like the idea of using drop pods best, but I don't know if that is enough help.

@undyinglight and shiladie: if you get ahead with these other runs you're talking about, please keep us informed at the fun constraints and mercs only threads. The mercs only brutal run should be tricky but doable, but the most difficult bit will be in the first couple of missions, and in the protoss missions where there are no mercs. Shiladie: did you see my post about the no-units run I did? Sounds very close to what you're planning, except that I didn't build scvs. You are obviously more skilled than I am - perhaps you can do a no units run on brutal, i.e. without the scvs?

Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
March 08 2011 22:20 GMT
#180
Thinking about the no-unit runs, the mission that would destroy you would be engine of destruction due to the need to consistantly attack vs constant waves of troops, no time to really slow-push with PF
You could do the block strat I did in this run-through, and then try and simply out-last the attacks to see if they ever stop, though that would be very ridiculous to try...
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