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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder
No they shouldn't? Why would they? That's nonsense and against the game. You do realize that many tactical fouls are not even offenses for a YC? Are you watching the same game? :D
On July 15 2021 03:28 Melliflue wrote:
I know the rules say it is a yellow card but I find it concerning that a player would so blatantly deliberately foul an oppenent. Chiellini knew he would be booked but didn't care. That tells me the yellow card is not enough of a punishment.
Sure, the same way players foul a runaway with a tackle where they know they cannot get the ball knowing they're not last thus there won't be any red card. It's part of the game. And most notably - these yellow cards are given to defensive players. Being a defender with a YC is a big advantage 
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On July 15 2021 03:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
La Liga is actually hilarious to watch these days. Atletico legit are the new power house after Real Madrid and Barca fucked their finances so royally. Saul is a FANTASTIC player, but he isn't a match winner all by himself like Greizman is so that swap deal propels Atletico up while Barca lose one of their best attacking players and still need to shift the wage bill.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder
In an ideal world, but I think you open the door to even more inconsistencies in application and more potential for gaming fouls to get players sent off.
A change would catch the occasional egregious tactical foul sure, but no doubt you’ll see silly reds. It’s asking refs to judge intent, is there a mistimed attempt to win the ball earnestly or is it a cynical deliberate foul? And I’m worried we’d see mistakes made and games ruined with red cards for innocuous fouls that are genuine attempts to get the ball, misconstrued as cynical deliberate fouls.
It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people.
One thing I would like to maybe see is what constitutes a clear goal scoring opportunity judged more realistically. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of difference between say, Kylian Mbappe being slid in behind the defence 20 metres from goal, or 60, if the defensive line is caught they’re not catching him. But you’ll see a red many times in the former and rarely the latter.
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On the Chiellini foul: he fouled. He got a yellow card. Case closed. It always was a yellow card, not more and not less. There was no immediate danger of a goal (which could've been a red card), there was no egregious tackle - there, in fact, was no difference between this and not getting out of the way of a player who starts a counter attack, letting him run into your shoulder.
Then, horse collar tackle. Jesus christ people. It's okay if you don't understand certain sports, don't throw around terms that you clearly don't understand.
edit: linked a video here that shows what a horse collar tackle is, got blocked because NFL content. Just search youtube for horse collar tackle.
This is a horse collar tackle. Remember how Chiellini did not pull Saka down, he just held his collar? Yeah. That makes it shirt grabbing, not a horse collar tackle, because that !pulling down! is the definition of horse collar tackle. To the point where every single horse collar tackle i've ever seen had the attacking player literally hanging off the collar of the attacked player.
Then, this masterpiece here.
It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people.
This is of course absolutely nonsense. Diving is cheating. As in, actual cheating, you're trying to trick the referee to gift you a goal (unless your name is Saka, Rashford or Sancho). A good example here is Sterling against Denmark. He tried and succeeded to cheat. He cheated Denmark out of the tournament.
A foul is by definition unfair, but not cheating. Hell, swearing is an actionable foul, or holding the ball longer than six seconds with your hands as the goal keeper (though rarely actioned, still a foul) - how you came to the conclusion that all fouls by definition are cheating is completely beyond me and of course objectively, factually and definitely false.
Again. Chiellini fouled. He got the correct card. Now.. Here's the thing. If Saka got hold of the ball and started running towards the goal, with Chiellini doing what experts call an "emergency brake" (pull him to prevent him to score), then that's a red card. That's not what happened here.
While a somewhat.. stupid foul, it's what it is. The only funnier thing than the memes we got out of this is that that general foul sparked petitions and screeching, while the actual fact of cheating a nation out of their final usually receives hand waving and "yeah buts".
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 15 2021 04:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder In an ideal world, but I think you open the door to even more inconsistencies in application and more potential for gaming fouls to get players sent off. A change would catch the occasional egregious tactical foul sure, but no doubt you’ll see silly reds. It’s asking refs to judge intent, is there a mistimed attempt to win the ball earnestly or is it a cynical deliberate foul? And I’m worried we’d see mistakes made and games ruined with red cards for innocuous fouls that are genuine attempts to get the ball, misconstrued as cynical deliberate fouls. It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people. One thing I would like to maybe see is what constitutes a clear goal scoring opportunity judged more realistically. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of difference between say, Kylian Mbappe being slid in behind the defence 20 metres from goal, or 60, if the defensive line is caught they’re not catching him. But you’ll see a red many times in the former and rarely the latter.
Tactical fouls are not just YC offenses though. There's plenty of tactical fouls in the game which are considered just fouls. This wasn't a tactical foul. This was an emergency break foul. Tactical foul is a break in the game - e.g. team needs to substitute, get time off from long term pressure, the opponent team is getting too much into the play and you want to break their tempo, you tall players need time to return after the corner etc.
Chiellini didn't do a tactical foul, he used the emergency break because he fucked up
I mean we can talk about tactical fouls and I am up for it, but this isn't it. IMO the worst of the tactical fouls is elbowing(and you cannot prove the intent there) and fouling the enemies playmaker so their play "hurts". I remember Rooney being taken off in 44th minutes because he was kicked off the field at one of the ManU games. Recent examples can be found as well. It's the usual tactic how to make the life of great players miserable.
Also fouls are not cheating, that's just nonsense. Cheating is to score a handball gall and stay silent about it. Cheating is diving for a penalty. Cheating is pretending to be hurt to get more serious punishment for the enemy. Cheating is pretending to be fouled in general. How is foul a cheating?
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On July 15 2021 05:49 m4ini wrote:On the Chiellini foul: he fouled. He got a yellow card. Case closed. It always was a yellow card, not more and not less. There was no immediate danger of a goal (which could've been a red card), there was no egregious tackle - there, in fact, was no difference between this and not getting out of the way of a player who starts a counter attack, letting him run into your shoulder. Then, horse collar tackle. Jesus christ people. It's okay if you don't understand certain sports, don't throw around terms that you clearly don't understand. edit: linked a video here that shows what a horse collar tackle is, got blocked because NFL content. Just search youtube for horse collar tackle. This is a horse collar tackle. Remember how Chiellini did not pull Saka down, he just held his collar? Yeah. That makes it shirt grabbing, not a horse collar tackle, because that !pulling down! is the definition of horse collar tackle. To the point where every single horse collar tackle i've ever seen had the attacking player literally hanging off the collar of the attacked player. Then, this masterpiece here. Show nested quote +It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people.
This is of course absolutely nonsense. Diving is cheating. As in, actual cheating, you're trying to trick the referee to gift you a goal (unless your name is Saka, Rashford or Sancho). A good example here is Sterling against Denmark. He tried and succeeded to cheat. He cheated Denmark out of the tournament. A foul is by definition unfair, but not cheating. Hell, swearing is an actionable foul, or holding the ball longer than six seconds with your hands as the goal keeper (though rarely actioned, still a foul) - how you came to the conclusion that all fouls by definition are cheating is completely beyond me and of course objectively, factually and definitely false. Again. Chiellini fouled. He got the correct card. Now.. Here's the thing. If Saka got hold of the ball and started running towards the goal, with Chiellini doing what experts call an "emergency brake" (pull him to prevent him to score), then that's a red card. That's not what happened here. While a somewhat.. stupid foul, it's what it is. The only funnier thing than the memes we got out of this is that that general foul sparked petitions and screeching, while the actual fact of cheating a nation out of their final usually receives hand waving and "yeah buts".
Thank you! I 100% agree. Tactical fouls get yellow and that is ok, no more no less. Red for that would be absurd and destroy the sport.
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On July 15 2021 05:52 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 04:49 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder In an ideal world, but I think you open the door to even more inconsistencies in application and more potential for gaming fouls to get players sent off. A change would catch the occasional egregious tactical foul sure, but no doubt you’ll see silly reds. It’s asking refs to judge intent, is there a mistimed attempt to win the ball earnestly or is it a cynical deliberate foul? And I’m worried we’d see mistakes made and games ruined with red cards for innocuous fouls that are genuine attempts to get the ball, misconstrued as cynical deliberate fouls. It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people. One thing I would like to maybe see is what constitutes a clear goal scoring opportunity judged more realistically. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of difference between say, Kylian Mbappe being slid in behind the defence 20 metres from goal, or 60, if the defensive line is caught they’re not catching him. But you’ll see a red many times in the former and rarely the latter. Tactical fouls are not just YC offenses though. There's plenty of tactical fouls in the game which are considered just fouls. This wasn't a tactical foul. This was an emergency break foul. Tactical foul is a break in the game - e.g. team needs to substitute, get time off from long term pressure, the opponent team is getting too much into the play and you want to break their tempo, you tall players need time to return after the corner etc. Chiellini didn't do a tactical foul, he used the emergency break because he fucked up I mean we can talk about tactical fouls and I am up for it, but this isn't it. IMO the worst of the tactical fouls is elbowing(and you cannot prove the intent there) and fouling the enemies playmaker so their play "hurts". I remember Rooney being taken off in 44th minutes because he was kicked off the field at one of the ManU games. Recent examples can be found as well. It's the usual tactic how to make the life of great players miserable. Also fouls are not cheating, that's just nonsense. Cheating is to score a handball gall and stay silent about it. Cheating is diving for a penalty. Cheating is pretending to be hurt to get more serious punishment for the enemy. Cheating is pretending to be fouled in general. How is foul a cheating?
Fouls are not cheating but they are unsportsmanlike.
I think football should look at other sports to see how they handle fouls and cards.
In field hockey there are 3 cards:
Green: player is out for 5 minutes (in a 70 minute game)
Yellow: player is out for 10 minutes (used to be between 5 and 15 depending on the severity)
Red is like football.
A voluntary foul is automatically yellow or red.
And I would say that despite hockey having a ton more types of fouls, intentional offenses are way less frequent than in football and so are injuries.
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On July 15 2021 04:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder In an ideal world, but I think you open the door to even more inconsistencies in application and more potential for gaming fouls to get players sent off. A change would catch the occasional egregious tactical foul sure, but no doubt you’ll see silly reds. It’s asking refs to judge intent, is there a mistimed attempt to win the ball earnestly or is it a cynical deliberate foul? And I’m worried we’d see mistakes made and games ruined with red cards for innocuous fouls that are genuine attempts to get the ball, misconstrued as cynical deliberate fouls. It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people. One thing I would like to maybe see is what constitutes a clear goal scoring opportunity judged more realistically. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of difference between say, Kylian Mbappe being slid in behind the defence 20 metres from goal, or 60, if the defensive line is caught they’re not catching him. But you’ll see a red many times in the former and rarely the latter.
Referees are already asked to judge intent sometimes. A foul in the box that denies a goal-scoring opportunity is only a red card if there was no legitimate attempt to play the ball. I would like to see that extended to outside the box too, although it may need the introduction of an 'orange card' with a temporary dismissal, as suggested above in the hockey comparison.
I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason.
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On July 15 2021 15:26 Melliflue wrote:
I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason.
And this is exactly why tactical fouls are ALWAYS punished with a yellow card even if the foul itself is the lightest of fouls. I personally agree with what has been said earlier - I think the constant diving is far more annoying than tactical fouls. I mean they DO put the defender at a disadvantage for the rest of the game (being carded does change your game quite a bit and might even force a substitution down the line). Also I really don't get why this foul out of all of them sparks this outrage. I mean I of course do get it - english fans are sore losers...
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On July 15 2021 15:26 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 04:49 WombaT wrote:On July 15 2021 03:36 sharkie wrote:
Tactical fouls should be red imo. If you foul someone purposely thats just not ok.
I think the fame would profit a lot more if you punished those fouls much harder In an ideal world, but I think you open the door to even more inconsistencies in application and more potential for gaming fouls to get players sent off. A change would catch the occasional egregious tactical foul sure, but no doubt you’ll see silly reds. It’s asking refs to judge intent, is there a mistimed attempt to win the ball earnestly or is it a cynical deliberate foul? And I’m worried we’d see mistakes made and games ruined with red cards for innocuous fouls that are genuine attempts to get the ball, misconstrued as cynical deliberate fouls. It is a problem, fouls in general are a problem. They are by definition cheating after all, but there’s far less complaints about them than diving because it’s more ‘manly’ to go around kicking people. One thing I would like to maybe see is what constitutes a clear goal scoring opportunity judged more realistically. I don’t think there’s a huge amount of difference between say, Kylian Mbappe being slid in behind the defence 20 metres from goal, or 60, if the defensive line is caught they’re not catching him. But you’ll see a red many times in the former and rarely the latter. Referees are already asked to judge intent sometimes. A foul in the box that denies a goal-scoring opportunity is only a red card if there was no legitimate attempt to play the ball. I would like to see that extended to outside the box too, although it may need the introduction of an 'orange card' with a temporary dismissal, as suggested above in the hockey comparison. I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason.
I’m confused as to the disagreement that deliberate fouls aren’t cheating.
Having played field hockey to a not absolutely terrible level their card system seems to work very well.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 15 2021 16:04 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 15:26 Melliflue wrote:
I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason. And this is exactly why tactical fouls are ALWAYS punished with a yellow card even if the foul itself is the lightest of fouls. I personally agree with what has been said earlier - I think the constant diving is far more annoying than tactical fouls. I mean they DO put the defender at a disadvantage for the rest of the game (being carded does change your game quite a bit and might even force a substitution down the line). Also I really don't get why this foul out of all of them sparks this outrage. I mean I of course do get it - english fans are sore losers...
This wasn't a tactical foul. What kind of tactic was behind Chiellini's foul? OMG OMG I FUCKED UP I HAD TO STOP HIM.
The best Italian tactics evah!
Many if not most tactical fouls are not YC offenses
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This is the 3rd day of leaked audio of this guy, he just can't catch a break.
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On July 15 2021 18:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 16:04 justanothertownie wrote:On July 15 2021 15:26 Melliflue wrote:
I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason. And this is exactly why tactical fouls are ALWAYS punished with a yellow card even if the foul itself is the lightest of fouls. I personally agree with what has been said earlier - I think the constant diving is far more annoying than tactical fouls. I mean they DO put the defender at a disadvantage for the rest of the game (being carded does change your game quite a bit and might even force a substitution down the line). Also I really don't get why this foul out of all of them sparks this outrage. I mean I of course do get it - english fans are sore losers... This wasn't a tactical foul. What kind of tactic was behind Chiellini's foul? OMG OMG I FUCKED UP I HAD TO STOP HIM. The best Italian tactics evah! Many if not most tactical fouls are not YC offenses
That is the definition of a tactical foul in my book and here...
Tactical fouling happens when a team loses the ball in the opponent's half and, before the counter-attack is even launched, commits a foul to immediately stop play.
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messi signs a 5 year deal at barca.
pretty ridiculous that he was offered a 5 year deal at his age but whatever. its official now that he will retire as a one club man
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On July 15 2021 21:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
messi signs a 5 year deal at barca.
pretty ridiculous that he was offered a 5 year deal at his age but whatever. its official now that he will retire as a one club man
His image, he is, sadly, the face of La Liga. As long he sticks around they have 5 years to build up his replacements and teach him the philosophy of coaching when he goes to Miami.
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On July 15 2021 18:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2021 16:04 justanothertownie wrote:On July 15 2021 15:26 Melliflue wrote:
I am surprised so many people are defending tactical fouls. They make the game less exciting. I don't want a counter-attack to be stopped by a tactical foul, or for a team's rhythm to be disrupted by unsportsmanlike means. I dislike time-wasting for the same reason. And this is exactly why tactical fouls are ALWAYS punished with a yellow card even if the foul itself is the lightest of fouls. I personally agree with what has been said earlier - I think the constant diving is far more annoying than tactical fouls. I mean they DO put the defender at a disadvantage for the rest of the game (being carded does change your game quite a bit and might even force a substitution down the line). Also I really don't get why this foul out of all of them sparks this outrage. I mean I of course do get it - english fans are sore losers... This wasn't a tactical foul. What kind of tactic was behind Chiellini's foul? OMG OMG I FUCKED UP I HAD TO STOP HIM. The best Italian tactics evah! Many if not most tactical fouls are not YC offenses
There is a difference between what you seem to consider a tactical foul and the official definition.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke, what’s he been saying this time?
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On July 16 2021 02:00 WombaT wrote:Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke, what’s he been saying this time?
Bashing Ronaldo, and Casillas. I believe when they were at Madrid or before.
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EPT
