EPTNBA General Discussion - Page 57
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16709 Posts
The NBA has become more entertaining over the last 20 years. MLB and the NHL have declined significantly in entertainment value. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 14 2021 09:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Silver has done a great job directing the NBA people who manage the rule set. By comparison, Gary Betman has done a poor job directing the people who manage the ruleset for the NHL. The MLB commissioner has also fucked up big time when it comes to managing that leagues' ruleset. A sharply increasing # of at bats end in a K,BB, or HR. It is boring. The NBA has become more entertaining over the last 20 years. MLB and the NHL have declined significantly in entertainment value. Pretty hard disagree here. Silver has failed to deal with flopping. His efforts at that were a weak fining system which he gave up on vigorously implementing about 1/3 into the first season. He hasn't done anything to combat the 3-ification of the league which has dropped the entertainment value significantly, and he has done nothing to keep players with the teams that drafted them resulting in fan disenfranchisement. The NBA has flourished on Twitter and social media under Silver, to the detriment of its actual TV properties, and to the detriment of the rest of its actual fans. Again, this will be even more obvious once Lebron is gone and rating halve themselves again. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On January 14 2021 10:00 cLutZ wrote: Pretty hard disagree here. Silver has failed to deal with flopping. His efforts at that were a weak fining system which he gave up on vigorously implementing about 1/3 into the first season. He hasn't done anything to combat the 3-ification of the league which has dropped the entertainment value significantly, and he has done nothing to keep players with the teams that drafted them resulting in fan disenfranchisement. The NBA has flourished on Twitter and social media under Silver, to the detriment of its actual TV properties, and to the detriment of the rest of its actual fans. Again, this will be even more obvious once Lebron is gone and rating halve themselves again. I would say that late 90s kids who enjoyed skillless Knicks-Heat thugball are only a small minority of NBA fans. I started watching the NBA during the early 90s before it fully devolved to that and I love what the NBA is returning to. Today's basketball is played closer to the pace of the 80s when teams ran up and down the court. Player movement is what keeps the NFL in the news cycle during its offseason. While some longtime basketball fans dislike it, it has made the NBA more relevant in its offseason, which contributes heavily to the NFL's success. And it has given many good players that are drafted by shit franchises an opportunity to compete in the playoffs. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 14 2021 11:14 andrewlt wrote: I would say that late 90s kids who enjoyed skillless Knicks-Heat thugball are only a small minority of NBA fans. I started watching the NBA during the early 90s before it fully devolved to that and I love what the NBA is returning to. Today's basketball is played closer to the pace of the 80s when teams ran up and down the court. Player movement is what keeps the NFL in the news cycle during its offseason. While some longtime basketball fans dislike it, it has made the NBA more relevant in its offseason, which contributes heavily to the NFL's success. And it has given many good players that are drafted by shit franchises an opportunity to compete in the playoffs. Being in the news in the offseason is not useful unless it translates to revenue, which it hasn't. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On January 14 2021 09:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Silver has done a great job directing the NBA people who manage the rule set. By comparison, Gary Betman has done a poor job directing the people who manage the ruleset for the NHL. The MLB commissioner has also fucked up big time when it comes to managing that leagues' ruleset. A sharply increasing # of at bats end in a K,BB, or HR. It is boring. The NBA has become more entertaining over the last 20 years. MLB and the NHL have declined significantly in entertainment value. I would disagree that the NHL has declined in entertainment value in the last 20 years. But if your claim is simply that it hasn't gotten any better I'd be on board. The entertainment value greatly improved after the '04 lockout, but hasn't gotten any better or worse since then. I think that has more do with salary cap than any rule changes. The dead-puck era through the 90s and early 2000s was unwatchable, bush-league garbage. I do not miss the days of the puck being kicked around in the corners for 45 minutes with a spattering of action during powerplays and the few lucky moments the puck came free for a rush. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On January 14 2021 10:00 cLutZ wrote: He hasn't done anything to combat the 3-ification of the league which has dropped the entertainment value significantly. Pretty hard disagree from me on this point. The improved shooting in the league has opened the game up and made it much more entertaining to the average viewer. I'm interested to know what you think should be done to improve the game in this area. The NBA has flourished on Twitter and social media under Silver, to the detriment of its actual TV properties, and to the detriment of the rest of its actual fans. What does this even mean? What is an "actual fan?" The only people I see make comments like these are often waxing whimsical about the ugly basketball that was played in the 80s and 90s. You can't sell that game to the masses. Again, this will be even more obvious once Lebron is gone and rating halve themselves again. This won't happen. The game has more big names in it than it ever has before. Most of the time Lebron is relegated to an after-thought or an also-ran during the season and then we're all reminded about how great he is when the playoffs start. When he leaves the league, another player will take his place just like Kobe did when Michael left. The marketing machine won't let it be any other way. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 15 2021 06:39 Nemireck wrote: Pretty hard disagree from me on this point. The improved shooting in the league has opened the game up and made it much more entertaining to the average viewer. I'm interested to know what you think should be done to improve the game in this area. Step 1 would be eliminating the corner 3. I'd also do a full scale crackdown on flopping on the perimeter (Trae young gets about 4 FTs a game with these things) and actually enforce offensive fouls on the perimeter. What does this even mean? What is an "actual fan?" The only people I see make comments like these are often waxing whimsical about the ugly basketball that was played in the 80s and 90s. You can't sell that game to the masses. The 80s and 90s were when basketball became popular, so that seems facially untrue. Also, a fan is a person who watches the games (you know the people that the NBA actually can make money off of). This won't happen. The game has more big names in it than it ever has before. Most of the time Lebron is relegated to an after-thought or an also-ran during the season and then we're all reminded about how great he is when the playoffs start. When he leaves the league, another player will take his place just like Kobe did when Michael left. The marketing machine won't let it be any other way. Your example makes no sense. The NBA has never recovered from Jordan's retirement. The non-Lebron finals when he went to the Lakers took a huge ratings hit. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On January 15 2021 06:28 Nemireck wrote: I would disagree that the NHL has declined in entertainment value in the last 20 years. But if your claim is simply that it hasn't gotten any better I'd be on board. The entertainment value greatly improved after the '04 lockout, but hasn't gotten any better or worse since then. I think that has more do with salary cap than any rule changes. The dead-puck era through the 90s and early 2000s was unwatchable, bush-league garbage. I do not miss the days of the puck being kicked around in the corners for 45 minutes with a spattering of action during powerplays and the few lucky moments the puck came free for a rush. Interesting that the NBAs dead-ball era coincided with it, having almost the exact same timeframe. It was also unwatchable, bush-league garbage. You could already see it during Jordan's 2nd three peat run. The non-Jordan rest of the league was mostly unwatchable, with viewers only tuning to Knicks-Heat to see if a brawl would break out. Same reason people tuned in to hockey during that era, I suppose. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16709 Posts
On January 15 2021 09:40 cLutZ wrote: Your example makes no sense. The NBA has never recovered from Jordan's retirement. The non-Lebron finals when he went to the Lakers took a huge ratings hit. American-only ratings took a huge hit because only 1 US city was in the series. A similar decline in American ratings occurred when the Blue Jays were in the Word Series. Once you included Canadian viewing numbers the difference didn't add up to a hill of beans. regarding the NBA Finals, once you include all the Canadians watching the 2019 finals... the NBA produced a median result relative to the ratings from 2009 to 2018. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Finals_television_ratings On January 15 2021 09:40 cLutZ wrote: Step 1 would be eliminating the corner 3. I'd also do a full scale crackdown on flopping on the perimeter (Trae young gets about 4 FTs a game with these things) and actually enforce offensive fouls on the perimeter. The 80s and 90s were when basketball became popular, so that seems facially untrue. Also, a fan is a person who watches the games (you know the people that the NBA actually can make money off of). This is a good point. In the late 70s and early 80s the NBA finals was on tape delay a lot. NBA popularity skyrocketed throughout the 80s. Maybe the 80s games are not to the taste of today's fan. However, today's fan was not going to the games in the 80s. So the fact that they don't like old time basketball doesn't matter much. The data indicates the ticket buying and tv viewing public loved the 80s brand of basketball. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 15 2021 21:00 JimmiC wrote: I guess sitcoms and TV dramas were way better in the 80s and 90s too. Or have you missed the whole cord cutting thing? The reason for the rights boom is sports still drives viewership to cable TV unlike the rest of TV. So instead of looking at raw numbers look at numbers adjusted for this. The easy way is look at numbers relative to the other sports. For example in the 80's and 90s hockey and the NBA were close. I think it is funny how you ask for links then don't read them. Also how you never provide own. It is a strange realization I'm having that this feelings over facts way of thinking is not just political and it makes so much sense why analytics are dummying the masses in sports betting and in the actual sports. The Super bowl doesn't have this alleged problem https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/super-bowl-ratings-historical-viewership-chart-cbs-nbc-fox-abc/ Also, you aren't even close to understanding why sitcom ratings are down. Its not cord cutting it was diversification. The invention of the cord, to put it one way. Instead of 3 options people had 30. This same effect isn't evidenced in the NBA where viewership didn't erode over time, it dropped precipitously in a single year. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16709 Posts
On January 15 2021 21:00 JimmiC wrote: For example in the 80's and 90s hockey and the NBA were close. the NHL had its shot at over taking the NBA in 1994 after a thrilling 7 game Stanley Cup final that included the New York Rangers and a guy who became a media darling, Mark Messier. What also added to the NHL's appeal amongst young people was one of the greatest sports video games ever made: EA NHL '94 hockey. Interestingly, EA NHL '94 still has an active competitive community around it. The NHLPA and NHL fucked that opportunity into the ground with a strike in 1995. Relative to the other sports unions the NBAPA has been very pragmatic and practical. the NBAPA made real tangible compromises that may have "infringed on their rights" in the short term, but were good for the growth of the game long term. To the victor goes the spoils. The NBAPA acted a lot smarter than the MLBPA and NHLPA. Eventually, they got rewarded. Baseball's 1994 strike that cancelled the World Series did huge damage to the game. MLB's reaction to this decline was to turn a blind eye to rampant steroid usage which distorted the balance of the game. The NHL's 1994 strike wrecked all of the momentum it built with the 1993 LA Kings playoff run and hte 1994 7 game finals culminating in a New York Rangers win. the MLBPA and NHLPA adopted the ultra militant union culture of a UAW union. The NBAPA didn't fall into that dogmatic ideological mindset. if i keep going with this post maybe i can some how work James Naismith into it.  | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Is Goodell a great commissioner? No, most of them are doing alright because of the live rights boom. If that ever slows down I suspect most leagues will start scrutinizing their commissioners more, and most will be shown to be lacking quite severely. That said, he is also the commissioner with the most players to manage and the most hostile media market. ESPN used to always lead with a negative about the NFL. "Is the NFL dying" was considered a legitimate question for most of the last decade, for some reason. He's had to deal with Rice, Kaep, several owners doing Sterling-level idiocy, the concussion controversy, and its mostly gone alright. I'd also rate their covid response as the hardest to execute, but also most competently done. So he's better than most. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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