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LeBron’s Terrifyingly Plausible Path to Boston If the King is looking for an ideal situation in both the short and long term, the Celtics can offer him one last chance at a dynasty before his career is over. Yes, really.
The simplest deal would be trading LeBron for Hayward, Marcus Morris, and a first-round pick. Cleveland, as much as they might hate to trade LeBron within their conference, would have to do it. If Hayward returns at 100 percent from his ankle injury, he would be their new franchise player, and a team built around Hayward and Kevin Love would immediately be relevant in the Eastern Conference. They could round out their starting lineup with some combination of George Hill, J.R. Smith, Tristan Thompson, Larry Nance Jr., Morris, and the no. 8 overall pick.
Even a completely healthy Hayward isn't going to really make Cleveland relevant. If Lebron couldn't win with that supporting cast, how is a combination of Hayward and Smart supposed to? Especially if they have to face the Celtics with Lebron? They barely beat the Celtics with Lebron on their side.
Most smart GM's would be looking to tear it down and start all over again if they lost Lebron, because trying to compete is just delaying that process by being mediocre instead of bad. If they start rebuilding now, perhaps they can be good again when Lebron is close to retiring and the Warriors are starting to age/risk losing significant pieces to free agency in 4-5 years.
On the flip side, the Cavs haven't exactly been the model franchise for savvy team building over the years even with multiple first picks over all, nor an attractive free agent destination even with Lebron. So maybe just being mediocre is the best they can hope for if Lebron leaves.
I find the mentality that if you aren't a contender, your year is a failure bizarre. That makes 90% of the teams any given year failures. If they are all failures, what's the difference between being the Suns and the Jazz?
Dwayne Casey just signed a 5 year deal with the Pistons. I think this is a great hire, he will help bring them back to respectability. Despite him not bringing a Championship to TO he brought them from being awful to very good, which is not easy.
On June 12 2018 00:07 Jerubaal wrote: I find the mentality that if you aren't a contender, your year is a failure bizarre. That makes 90% of the teams any given year failures. If they are all failures, what's the difference between being the Suns and the Jazz?
Maybe nowadays people deem that the only way you're going to be contending one day (which is an understandable goal for an owner) is to tank as hard as you can to stack multiple high picks for low-budget stars and attract expensive good free agents. So might as well start asap instead of having decent non-contending years that only serve to delay your contention.
But I think some owners are also fine with just having a good consistent team that won't win anything.
On the flip side, the Cavs haven't exactly been the model franchise for savvy team building over the years even with multiple first picks over all, nor an attractive free agent destination even with Lebron. So maybe just being mediocre is the best they can hope for if Lebron leaves.
They still got a ring out of it (and made the finals 4 times). It's not too bad really. Maybe you meant that they wouldn't have gone anywhere if they hadn't "stumbled upon" the 1b GOAT.
I have to agree with Jerubaal. It's not healthy for the NBA if the mentality is that every year there is 1 champion and 29 failures. There are teams like Atlanta (from a few years ago) and Toronto that are good enough to compete in the playoffs but didn't have what it takes to go further.
Some of these highly touted high draft picks are going to end up just good enough to take a team to the playoffs. They may be good enough to consistently make the playoffs for the next 5-10 years but not good enough to threaten an actual contender. Should teams take those years of playoff but not championship contention and try to improve little by little or just blow it up again?
It would be horrible. Some fans think they like it cause of how the sixers are now, I'm sure it was awful to be a sixers fan during the tank. And lots of times the tanks don't work out and the awfulness continues.
What will be funny is if like 15 teams all try to tank no one will consistently get a top pick and they will end up staying at the bottom!
The tanking mindset seems to be getting more popular for owners, this year alone it was so ridiculous. Like Lopez playing full first quarters for the Bulls and never seeing the floor again after getting a lead :D.
Casey signed a 5 year deal with the Pistons. Nice to see he landed on his feet. Kinda funny he gets a new 5 year deal before the Raptors find his replacement.
Well, it would only work so far because there is too much talent in the league. if you put every below average player on the bottom 15 teams, the top 15 teams would be composed of average to above average players.
On June 12 2018 02:32 Jerubaal wrote: Well, it would only work so far because there is too much talent in the league. if you put every below average player on the bottom 15 teams, the top 15 teams would be composed of average to above average players.
It would come down to who could coach the worst and come up with "injuries" for their decent players. People would be looking for high usage low efficient scorers with bad defense!
I guess it might make the top 15 more even as the bottom 15 look to ship out their talent.
It's one thing when tanking teams are trying to develop young players while doing so. It's another when they're trotting out lineups with 2-3 slow-footed centers trying to play like guards. One of the good things the Sixers did during their tank was trying find gems from among their lower drafted picks.
Bogut tweeted" Have the popcorn ready for this offseasons NBA FA drama's! Don't be fooled, most of the big deals are done "verbally". More superteams are cometh...
According to Woj the raps have signed Nick Nurse to be the new head coach for the raps. He was an assistant under Casey. But don't think he will be the same apparently they butted heads a ton.
On June 13 2018 01:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i think Nick Nurse is the guy who invented the Raptors 2018 offense that featured more ball movement and relied less on Lowry.
it'll be interesting to see if VanVleet follows Casey to Detroit.
so wrong. please know your facts before you post.
the offense you refer to was developed by keith boyarsky who is now vs for basketball ops and jim sann.
it"s one thing to argue about which player is better but this are objective facts anbd you are categorically wrong about them, just as you are wrong in understanding and using advanced stats.
please don't do this again.
and why would vanvleet follow casey? why would a player follow a coach for that matter? has it ever happened in nba that makes you think this is good? bad coaches practice cronyism and hire old players like rivers in celtics and his son, but this is far from normal in the nba.
Cavs should sell off their future to land Kawhi, imo. They could package TT or JR with some future picks. Spurs will get a tank commander and some future picks that will be very valuable when LeBron and Kawhi leave the following year and Cavs start winning the lottery again. LeBron surely stays as it all but guarantees his 9th straight Finals and even a shot at beating the GOAT team Warriors. Dan Gilbert and Cleveland fans might not be ok with trading off their future for 1 more year but they need to realize that they are Cleveland and in Cleveland chances of winning a sports championship only come around once every 20-30 years so you may as well go all-in for it.
Its not the worst idea. But you sould need the spurs to take you picks this year. If you are tradinf futures then 5anking does not work. Just ask the nets.
the Indians have been very good for about 5 years and you can build a top notch baseball team on 1 genius GM/Prez of B-Ball Ops with very little resources.
On June 13 2018 01:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i think Nick Nurse is the guy who invented the Raptors 2018 offense that featured more ball movement and relied less on Lowry.
it'll be interesting to see if VanVleet follows Casey to Detroit.
so wrong. please know your facts before you post.
the offense you refer to was developed by keith boyarsky who is now vs for basketball ops and jim sann.
it"s one thing to argue about which player is better but this are objective facts anbd you are categorically wrong about them, just as you are wrong in understanding and using advanced stats.
please don't do this again.
and why would vanvleet follow casey? why would a player follow a coach for that matter? has it ever happened in nba that makes you think this is good? bad coaches practice cronyism and hire old players like rivers in celtics and his son, but this is far from normal in the nba.
There is zero chance that Popovich and the Spurs deal with the Lakers at all for Leonard.
We'll just have to grab him in FA when his current contract expires. If he really wants to come to LA, any team that trades for him will be trading for a rental.
Boston is really the only team with tradeable assets that I can see really biting at that deal. MAYBE Toronto.
Kawhii to the Knicks for 2 futures top 2 protected and Enes Kantor. No way he opts out of being the king of New York. Perfect play that also avoids creating an LA superteam which SA cannot abide.
I think they will get more, Like bos can give them the kings pick which is unprotected and they are bad. Kawhii makes the knicks decent, and why do they want kantor when they already have the old and overpaid Gasol?
If kahwii is willing to extend with bos I could see them offering the kings pick and brown.
As a Spurs fan, this whole saga really saddens me. I wanted Kawhi to lead the Spurs into the future smoothly after the big three era.
It's equally confusing because his personality seems to be the antithesis of LA. Weird all around. If I were the Spurs, I'd be eyeing Boston's picks/young assets. No way in hell the Spurs trade him straight to the Lakers
On June 17 2018 06:23 cLutZ wrote: Im assuming he only gives an extension nod to LA, and really just the Lakers because only insane people consider the Clippers even close.
Well then your theory on him signing in NY is bunk.
My theory is he wouldn't guarantee NY. But, IMO, the fellatio New York gives anyone who is even decent is too much for most people to reject once they have felt it.
First point, if he only wants to go to LA and no where else, that means NY is out as well as Bos. If he just cares that it is a major center then LA New york and Bos would all be in play and possibly Chi and Hou.
If he opens up his other options Bos is more appealing because winning is more fun then losing, you can also make a lot more money winning then losing.
LA lakers have a long history of winning, they also have lots of cap space to pair Kawhii with someone else so I'm assuming that he thinks him, PG13 or LeBron, Ball, INgram and who ever else they end up with would be decent.
NY is a great city, but it is not like it is THAT much better then Boston. There is a reason that the Red sox, Patriots, Celtics and Bruins all are often winners and players like to go there and often stay.
I dunno what is more surprising that you are close friends with LeBron and just know "things". Or that you think Boston has the Monopoly on Racism. Ever seen the wing bowl in Philly? How about Rodney King in LA, how about everything everywhere.
On June 17 2018 10:42 JimmiC wrote: I dunno what is more surprising that you are close friends with LeBron and just know "things". Or that you think Boston has the Monopoly on Racism. Ever seen the wing bowl in Philly? How about Rodney King in LA, how about everything everywhere.
It's not just the racism, it's the general snootiness and insularity of the people. I know people who went to university around that area and his feedback is the exact same one they gave. Each city has its own local vibe and culture. Of all the big cities, that's the one place I keep hearing that there's something off putting for people moving there. You have to be born there to like it.
One thing that nobody mentioned so far is that Kawhi grew up in Riverside. His Lakers preference could just be him wanting to play close to home. Some fans just forget the human side of players' decisions.
On June 17 2018 10:42 JimmiC wrote: I dunno what is more surprising that you are close friends with LeBron and just know "things". Or that you think Boston has the Monopoly on Racism. Ever seen the wing bowl in Philly? How about Rodney King in LA, how about everything everywhere.
It's not just the racism, it's the general snootiness and insularity of the people. I know people who went to university around that area and his feedback is the exact same one they gave. Each city has its own local vibe and culture. Of all the big cities, that's the one place I keep hearing that there's something off putting for people moving there. You have to be born there to like it.
One thing that nobody mentioned so far is that Kawhi grew up in Riverside. His Lakers preference could just be him wanting to play close to home. Some fans just forget the human side of players' decisions.
I'm not saying he loves Bos or hates it, either could be true. But saying he would sign in NY because it's NY but wouldn't in Bos because of racism with ZERO quotes or info is troubling.
I agree if he wants to play near home and LA is all he will pick then he will end up in LA. People can pick where they work for a number of reasons. I prefer small city living so I moved out of big city and earn less money. That being said I have a 8 min commute and IMO have a better standard of living.
When you are considered a top 5 player in the league, a year from UFA status you can basically pick where you end up now, and if not you surely can next year.
My view is that if he says his preference is LA, we can make an educated guess that playing near home is his highest priority. The Lakers haven't exactly been tearing the league lately. Every major free agent linked to the Lakers have a home nearby. Paul George grew up in Palmdale (nearby being a bit of a stretch here). Lebron has summer homes in LA.
Even if the Spurs don't want to help the Lakers, I doubt many teams would be willing to offer that much for what would likely be a one year rental of a guy wanting to go home to play. Sure, the Lakers can just wait for next year but that's potentially one year of contention they will be missing out of. The other players who may join Kawhi in LA aren't that young anymore.
I don't know what sort of insurance teams have for player injury, but this suddenly puts the last year in a much worse light. The Spurs could claim that he was sandbagging.
Most teams have insurance on players in case of injury, this would only be a problem if the insurance company wouldn't pay the claim which would trigger a investigation.
There are some exceptions but this tends to be with previous injuries. For example Amare Stoudemire contract was not insurable when the Knicks signed him. This was pretty big news and is probably why he ended up there, most other teams were unwilling to take the risk.
On June 19 2018 02:43 Jerubaal wrote: I don't know what sort of insurance teams have for player injury, but this suddenly puts the last year in a much worse light. The Spurs could claim that he was sandbagging.
On June 17 2018 10:42 JimmiC wrote: I dunno what is more surprising that you are close friends with LeBron and just know "things". Or that you think Boston has the Monopoly on Racism. Ever seen the wing bowl in Philly? How about Rodney King in LA, how about everything everywhere.
it's the general snootiness and insularity of the people. I know people who went to university around that area and his feedback is the exact same one they gave. Each city has its own local vibe and culture. Of all the big cities, that's the one place I keep hearing that there's something off putting for people moving there. You have to be born there to like it.
MIT, Harvard, Yale, They view their region as the "intellectual capital" of the USA. There is some truth to that.
Mass. has short man's syndrome from being right beside New York state. Smaller state, smaller population, no where near the international recognition New York city and state have. Their snootiness, insularity and being elite in a few narrow fields is how they hold on to their identity.
South east New Yorkers are flat out fuck you in your face 100% direct. They are easier to deal with. You hit a crass, loud, rude New Yorker with a solid, logical, argument that makes sense and they'll listen. They are brutal and ruthless, but logical. I can deal with that.
Boston//Mass. has a bit of that british "stiff upper lip" thing going on. The British thing of 10,000 unwritten rules and if you break one of them you are excommunicated from the informal group without notice. That's the Boston thing going on. Add it all up and New Englanders in general and Bostonians in particular are very tough to deal with.
Even New England's Pro Wrestling company is super snobby. WWF owner Vince Mcmahon forced southern wrestlers to take speaking lessons in order to converse in "The King's English". If a wrestler refused to take speaking lessons Vince would assign a "manager" to the guy and would not let him speak on camera. Mcmahon believed speaking in a proper english manner made his product feel more legit.
Upstate New Yorkers are the best! very practical, pragmatic, and down to earth. GO BILLS GO!
The problem with attributing the culture to MIT, Harvard and Yale is that those institutions attract a lot of people from all over the country. They are hardly community colleges. That seems to be the case with a lot of New Yorkers as well, though not necessarily the ones heckling at MSG during the draft.
i think you've mixed up your demos. You're describing the old brahmins and perhaps the middle class of Boston and New England. These are the descendants of the Puritans who abandoned any moral conviction but maintained their feelings of superiority to become the modern American Left. These are the Kevin Arnovitzes and Seth MacFarlanes of the world who may be intelligent, subtle, cultured and well traveled, but, at the end of the day, don't have much love for anyone who isn't just like them. These are not the people heckling at the parquet. Those people have much more in common with the Irish working class that grew up under those Brahmins.
On June 17 2018 10:42 JimmiC wrote: I dunno what is more surprising that you are close friends with LeBron and just know "things". Or that you think Boston has the Monopoly on Racism. Ever seen the wing bowl in Philly? How about Rodney King in LA, how about everything everywhere.
it's the general snootiness and insularity of the people. I know people who went to university around that area and his feedback is the exact same one they gave. Each city has its own local vibe and culture. Of all the big cities, that's the one place I keep hearing that there's something off putting for people moving there. You have to be born there to like it.
MIT, Harvard, Yale, They view their region as the "intellectual capital" of the USA. There is some truth to that.
Mass. has short man's syndrome from being right beside New York state. Smaller state, smaller population, no where near the international recognition New York city and state have. Their snootiness, insularity and being elite in a few narrow fields is how they hold on to their identity.
South east New Yorkers are flat out fuck you in your face 100% direct. They are easier to deal with. You hit a crass, loud, rude New Yorker with a solid, logical, argument that makes sense and they'll listen. They are brutal and ruthless, but logical. I can deal with that.
Boston//Mass. has a bit of that british "stiff upper lip" thing going on. The British thing of 10,000 unwritten rules and if you break one of them you are excommunicated from the informal group without notice. That's the Boston thing going on. Add it all up and New Englanders in general and Bostonians in particular are very tough to deal with.
Even New England's Pro Wrestling company is super snobby. WWF owner Vince Mcmahon forced southern wrestlers to take speaking lessons in order to converse in "The King's English". If a wrestler refused to take speaking lessons Vince would assign a "manager" to the guy and would not let him speak on camera. Mcmahon believed speaking in a proper english manner made his product feel more legit.
Upstate New Yorkers are the best! very practical, pragmatic, and down to earth. GO BILLS GO!
For someone who doesn't live in NY or New England you sure "know" a lot about it. TIL everyone in South East NY is obnoxious but reasonable.
my biggest revenue source comes from the north eastern usa.. its important to know your customers. however, when i say "upstate new yorkers are the best and GO BILLS GO!" clearly you are getting my subjective canadian perspective on the north eastern usa and not some kind of scientific study.
I'd always been curious about that Team USA 2004 Bronze medal team, but too lazy to look into it. Larry Brown coached that team. and, well, Larry Brown is very bad.
rummaging around reddit today i found these quotes + Show Spoiler +
Richard Jefferson said, "I remember in the qualifier for the Olympics, he told Jason Kidd, ‘Hey Jason, I know you're really good at the fast break, but I want you to stop at the free-throw line and throw a bounce pass to one of the wings.’ And you're sitting here talking to the second all-time leading assist guy and one of the most dominant point guards of all time. Truth be told, that's probably why nine guys decided that they didn't want to go do the Olympics."
Stephon Marbury said to Chris Sheridan, "You know, Coach Brown isn't letting us play. He's trying to make us play the 'right way.' He's not letting us play. We just need to play."
On June 20 2018 03:29 Jerubaal wrote: The problem with attributing the culture to MIT, Harvard and Yale is that those institutions attract a lot of people from all over the country. They are hardly community colleges. That seems to be the case with a lot of New Yorkers as well, though not necessarily the ones heckling at MSG during the draft.
i think you've mixed up your demos. You're describing the old brahmins and perhaps the middle class of Boston and New England. These are the descendants of the Puritans who abandoned any moral conviction but maintained their feelings of superiority to become the modern American Left. These are the Kevin Arnovitzes and Seth MacFarlanes of the world who may be intelligent, subtle, cultured and well traveled, but, at the end of the day, don't have much love for anyone who isn't just like them. These are not the people heckling at the parquet. Those people have much more in common with the Irish working class that grew up under those Brahmins.
thanks for the insights.
i'm more attributing the snob culture with how new englanders view themselves. 1 of the many things they point to is their world class learning institutions. they are not claiming they all went to those schools but that the world goes to their region for the best intellectual experience on earth.
a big impact on my high opinion of western new yorkers and upstate new yorkers could also be that they don't treat canadians likes aliens from another planet.
The Woj announcing that the Hornets are trading Howard to the Nets for mozgov. Which will save the nets 17 mil to set them up for 2 max spots in 19-20. That being said I have to assume the nets must be throwing in some sort of sweetners because mozgov is awful why would Charlotte want him???
Also, Gay declined his option with the spurs and Crawford with the twolves.
On June 20 2018 22:31 JimmiC wrote: The Woj announcing that the Hornets are trading Howard to the Nets for mozgov. Which will save the nets 17 mil to set them up for 2 max spots in 19-20. That being said I have to assume the nets must be throwing in some sort of sweetners because mozgov is awful why would Charlotte want him???
Also, Gay declined his option with the spurs and Crawford with the twolves.
Mozgov + 2 second round futures. Still don't understand the deal from Charlotte's perspective.
Also wondering who the Kings will take at #2. I wish they'd take Doncic, but apparently Bagley is the only top tier player who hasn't told the Kings to basically fuck off, meaning they'll probably have to take Bagley. Which isn't the worst thing I guess. As long as they don't select MPJ at #2, I'll be okay.
I'm starting to like the idea of taking away max contracts, but I a) worry about how that would take away the bottom half and b) we might still get teams with 3 30 million+ guys and a bunch of veteran ring chasers.
On June 21 2018 11:08 zev318 wrote: taking away max contracts only benefit a small amount of players and take away from 99%, im not sure the PA would go for it
I'm a huge fan of it for competitive balance, not so sure about it from players ranked 15-65 who would all probably be paid less instead of the stars.
I have no Idea how it would effect the "middle" and "lower" class players.
Max contracts are, basically, 100% an intra-NBAPA issue. They don't affect the revenue splits at all, merely which players get the money. With Bron and CP3 running the union they massively increased the cap on max salaries, but net time they are at the table it might not be rich players in charge.
Maybe this is just me, but I feel like the majority of the top 10 draft picks will be nearly unplayable in playoff basketball games because they can't guard shit. Like, they need to either massively improve on defense, or be able to get 30 PPG.
#1 Example would be Bagley. People keep calling him "Possibly Chris Bosh" which is a lie because its "Chris Bosh without defense", which is really just a poor man's Kevin Love.
I think shooting is a bigger detriment to playing end of game then defense. This is why you see guys like drummond on the bench and why Williams fell (43% ft) Right now the nba is far more about out scoring then it is defending.
On June 22 2018 13:29 cLutZ wrote: Maybe this is just me, but I feel like the majority of the top 10 draft picks will be nearly unplayable in playoff basketball games because they can't guard shit. Like, they need to either massively improve on defense, or be able to get 30 PPG.
#1 Example would be Bagley. People keep calling him "Possibly Chris Bosh" which is a lie because its "Chris Bosh without defense", which is really just a poor man's Kevin Love.
I agree. The top teams in the playoffs are now all about efficient shooting and switch-y players who can guard wings. Most of the top 10 seem to belong to a decade ago.
I read up a bit on the glut of big men prospects at the top and their projected shooting ability is mostly theoretical.
I feel like nothing's going to happen to big FA/trade candidates and they're all going to re-sign. Lebron, Leonard, PG, CP3 all stay :D (Leonard reluctantly of course)
I think one topic that wasn't really discussed is how the Cavs could have handled the Kyrie trade better. Obviously they traded down twice. What better assets could they have gotten. Could they have gotten Horford?
On June 26 2018 01:26 Jerubaal wrote: I think one topic that wasn't really discussed is how the Cavs could have handled the Kyrie trade better. Obviously they traded down twice. What better assets could they have gotten. Could they have gotten Horford?
I think this is a bit of a hindsight is 20/20 thing. I think initial reaction was the pacers got fleeced for PG13 and the cavs did much better for Kyrie.
This is the first "trade grade" article I googled and they got a A+
I don't think you can get Horford because Bos knows how important he is. IT would also become redundant with Kyrie there and missing Horford would completely disrupt them with no replacement.
IT being a complete bust to the extent he was I don't think was foreseeable. I think everyone was surprised how bad Crowder worked out for them, it appeared like Cavs had a huge need for a 3 and D guy and Crowder was thought to be one of the best. Then the Nets pick was a huge get. At that point I think everyone thought it would be top 3 is a good class. But the Nets went out and were only the 8th worst. But 8th pick is still pretty good.
So I think it wasn't a terrible trade for the Cavs, it just worked out about as bad as it possibly could. Long term it pretty much hinges on either Kyrie being injured all the time or this Sexton pick knocking it out of the park.
Gratz to Dwane Casey on winning coach of the year. Well deserved. Toronto has zero top 4 draft picks. 1 top 5 pick in Jonas Valaciunas. Toronto signed zero big time free agents.
Casey's entire tenure in Toronto has been very, very good. A class act.
I dont think his firing was about his performance, it was about the irrational expectations for the team in the playoffs and the GM wanting his own guy before he ends up getting fired.
At this point from what we're hearing I don't really think Lebron is too set on winning at all cost. Very few options make his potential team match GSW. Seems like his top 2 choices are the Cavs and the Lakers, which I don't see among his best moves to be on a championship team.
They really should do the awards during the gap between the regular season and the playoffs. It has lost all its hype and significance these past couple of years.
This World Cup has confirmed to me that soccer fans and media are just as stupid as I thought they were. Why do you think that is? Does the size of the fandom just make it impossible to rise above mob-level thinking? Or is it that there just isn't that much nuance or strategy to discuss?
I'm convinced most soccer fans don't get what is going on on the field at all. Whether there is some unseen depth to the game I couldn't know, I really don't play/watch football at all. It's hard to be convinced that overall strategy has an impact because it's such a high variance game compared to basketball. You could have a way better gameplan AND players than your opponent and still lose 1-0. So as a football noob I'm not even sure teams bother with deep strategy :D.
they look like they're having fun though. fun is important. silly, stupid fun is important too.
i know way more about the NBA than i do about the NFL and yet Bills games are way more fun than Raptors games. That is both for me and the fans. Bills fans have way more fun than Raptors fans. Also, coming home from Buffalo Bills games amongst thousands of Canadians in their cars is a great way to smuggle US products back into Canada.
as long as everyone is having fun... who cares how much they know about the game.
WTF! Why would the Wizards accept Rivers for Gortat?!!! Their lineup is full of 1-2 players, if they wanted to release Gortat, they should have looked for another center or a 4. I think this is an agreement between Coach Rivers and management to keep his coaching stint and improve the morale and culture of the team. Obvious win for the Clippers, but why on hell would Wizard even consider this at the pitch stage.
On June 26 2018 23:47 ZenithM wrote: I'm convinced most soccer fans don't get what is going on on the field at all. Whether there is some unseen depth to the game I couldn't know, I really don't play/watch football at all. It's hard to be convinced that overall strategy has an impact because it's such a high variance game compared to basketball. You could have a way better gameplan AND players than your opponent and still lose 1-0. So as a football noob I'm not even sure teams bother with deep strategy :D.
i bet fans know the same about each sport strategy they are fanatic for. As you said, you dont know much about football so you dont understand whats going on...
And i dont know about this variance you talking, best players = win. The richest teams, capable of hiring the best players and coaches are always winning. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Manchesters, Chelsea. Specially in the leagues. Playoffs are a little more random but still one of these teams is going to win, most likely. The World Cup is more random, teams can get a while to warm up because they dont get much practice for the tournament and playoffs are best of 1, but the usual teams still wins as they are the nations with best players. In 20 WC, 77 different nations qualified only 8 champions and 3 teams with 13 titles.
One thing I think people misunderstand about soccer (and possibly hockey, but that is a sport I genuinely only watch for fun and dont understand) is that the generation of good "chances" is an extreme indication of skill. A great example of this would be the recent German comeback against Sweden. This is a game that not only demonstrates that playing better doesn't always immediately grant results, but also shows how important finishing is.
A few things to note:
1. Sweden's keeper in this game was both bad, and lucky. His luck greatly compensated for badness, otherwise the score would have been 4+ to 1. His badness was particularly shown on the last goal where he didn't understand the role of a wall and his job to protect against crosses and farside goals.
2. Germany finished extremely poorly in this game (part of the keeper's luck). Had they had a Miroslav Klose in the game the score would have been brutal. This is also why guys like Ronaldo and Messi (particularly Ronaldo because his game can otherwise look very boring) are so incredibly valuable on good/great teams like Madrid/Barca. They translate these opportunities into points almost every time, whereas a guy like Werner can get a lot of great chances without getting a lot of goals.
3. Germany thus was unlucky and unskilled at the two most important areas of the game (goalkeeping and finishing), and won 2-1. At worst would have lost the game (against a fairly good Sweden side) 2-1 if they had had even worse luck in those 2 positions. This is despite not playing their best ball controller Ozil who has served as Germany's "point guard" since 2010 because he's kind of a jerk.
i bet fans know the same about each sport strategy they are fanatic for.
Definitely. I don't think average basketball fans know more about their game than football fans know about theirs. I was just responding to Jerubaal. Fans of popular sports are not intellectual elites (or "anything" elites for that matter) and that translates into their understanding of the game.
I still think football has way more variance than basketball though.
Basketball likely has the least variance among the major sports at the professional level. The current style of play has increased it somewhat but it should still be lower than other sports.
Which makes sense because one player can do so much in Basketball compared to other sports. Lebron played almost every minute in the playoffs. And he plays defense and offense. He can control the ball every offensive possession. Then on top of that there is way more opportunities to score then any other sport. So missing a shot isn't as big as others.
That being said baseball is by far the sport that is most easily "mathed" out and broken down statistically.
For playoffs and championships then football has the most variance because of 1 game series compared to 7. (in NA)
On June 28 2018 00:33 andrewlt wrote: Basketball likely has the least variance among the major sports at the professional level. The current style of play has increased it somewhat but it should still be lower than other sports.
ya, i think the 3-point shooting has increased variance in basketball. 3-point shooters go through hot and cold streaks akin to baseball hitters.
i think the "hot goalie" in hockey gives that sport a much higher variance than basketball. also, having to play games on bad ice in june. the variance in ice quality really increases in late may and june.
On June 28 2018 00:45 JimmiC wrote: Which makes sense because one player can do so much in Basketball compared to other sports. Lebron played almost every minute in the playoffs. And he plays defense and offense. He can control the ball every offensive possession. Then on top of that there is way more opportunities to score then any other sport. So missing a shot isn't as big as others.
That being said baseball is by far the sport that is most easily "mathed" out and broken down statistically.
For playoffs and championships then football has the most variance because of 1 game series compared to 7. (in NA)
I think it's less about the impact of one player (since NFL qbs and hockey goalies are almost the same way) and more about scoring opportunities.
The closer the success rate is to 50%, the less variance there is. If the success rate is high (think NFL kickers on close field goals), then there is a lot of luck in missing. If the success rate is low (hockey, soccer), then there is a lot of luck in making it. Basketball teams also routinely have around 80-100 possessions nowadays. I'm not quite sure of the exact number but it does a lot to smooth out variance.
On June 28 2018 00:45 JimmiC wrote: Which makes sense because one player can do so much in Basketball compared to other sports. Lebron played almost every minute in the playoffs. And he plays defense and offense. He can control the ball every offensive possession. Then on top of that there is way more opportunities to score then any other sport. So missing a shot isn't as big as others.
That being said baseball is by far the sport that is most easily "mathed" out and broken down statistically.
For playoffs and championships then football has the most variance because of 1 game series compared to 7. (in NA)
I think it's less about the impact of one player (since NFL qbs and hockey goalies are almost the same way) and more about scoring opportunities.
The closer the success rate is to 50%, the less variance there is. If the success rate is high (think NFL kickers on close field goals), then there is a lot of luck in missing. If the success rate is low (hockey, soccer), then there is a lot of luck in making it. Basketball teams also routinely have around 80-100 possessions nowadays. I'm not quite sure of the exact number but it does a lot to smooth out variance.
I agree with your second point but peyton manning coukdnt play defense and Hasek could never score. So while impactful. Not the same.
A lot of basketball's perception of non-randomness is also its 7 game format in the playoffs. It is evidence to the extreme randomness of Hockey & Baseball that they are perceived as random despite having 7 game systems. The NFL would, IMO, look very non-random with even 5 game series (probably even with the home-home cumulative format that UEFA uses).
I think PG is the one likeliest to indeed go to LA at this point, but I really wouldn't be surprised if the Leonard trade didn't go through (that's actually the most likely outcome), hence triggering Lebron to not move, and PG to end up announcing he stays in OKC.
But really I think PG goes to LA. Do you think it's enough for Lebron to come too?
Edit: Ok I've thought about it and given what we hear, I've been converted to the church of LeGone haha.
On June 28 2018 05:40 cLutZ wrote: A lot of basketball's perception of non-randomness is also its 7 game format in the playoffs. It is evidence to the extreme randomness of Hockey & Baseball that they are perceived as random despite having 7 game systems. The NFL would, IMO, look very non-random with even 5 game series (probably even with the home-home cumulative format that UEFA uses).
i think both NHL hockey and International Men's hockey has grown in randomness/variance over the past 40+ years. in MLB on only 1 occasion has a team not named the New York Yankees repeated as World Series champs.
LeBron is thin-skinned just like KD. They're both affected by the haters even though they pretend to not care. LeBron was the most hated guy in the league 6-7 years ago then he went back to Cavs and became the most loved. But there is one group of haters LeBron has yet to win over, and those are the die-hard Lakers/Kobe fans. LeBron going to LA to win their hearts once and for all.
Seriously though, I think its between CLE/LA at this point and hes gonna go wherever he thinks he can win a ring the most. Probably wait to see if either team can get another big name.
That would be quite cool of PG to stay in OKC to try to win there and forgo the LA lifestyle. This would also put a dent in the theory that Westbrook is such a bad teammate.
Despite what people are generally saying, IMO, a Lebron-PG-Kawhi team that doesn't win 75 games and 4 titles would be a grave underperformance, and thus it does not interest me.
On June 30 2018 07:59 BlackJack wrote: LeBron is thin-skinned just like KD. They're both affected by the haters even though they pretend to not care. LeBron was the most hated guy in the league 6-7 years ago then he went back to Cavs and became the most loved. But there is one group of haters LeBron has yet to win over, and those are the die-hard Lakers/Kobe fans. LeBron going to LA to win their hearts once and for all.
If that's his plan, those irrationals won't do that until he wins a title.
On June 30 2018 11:43 ZenithM wrote: That would be quite cool of PG to stay in OKC to try to win there and forgo the LA lifestyle. This would also put a dent in the theory that Westbrook is such a bad teammate.
Westbrook has also learned a lot in the past few years about how to be a better teammate. At least it would seem that way from the stuff you keep hearing he has done with PG.
On June 30 2018 22:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a knee contusion that doesn't heal and turns out to be a tear...with "sources" insisting that its minor. gee, where have i seen that before?
I see where you are going but it seems different in this case. That reported meniscus injury was already known and it was the same injury he has/had been dealing with, it just became public. The Lakers, by law, aren't allowed to release/disclose player's medical reports or w/e you wanna call it to the public during the summer (according to Ramona). And who would gain the most from this leaking amid possible trade rumors? Ball's camp is where the signs are pointing to with the timing of this.
They got Paul George 5 years instead of what was supposed to be a 1-year rental (then losing him to LA). Lakers will get Lebron at least but it really shows that players' minds can change in 1 year.
I'm really curious what made PG choose OKC over LA, despite Westbrook, last year, Melo, KD, etc., and for 4 more years too! So practically prime PG will be OKC PG!
oops, i mean Congratz to Fred Van Vleet. from undrafted 6 foot nobody to G-League Finals MVP to an $18 million deal. its interesting that its a 2 year deal. it seems like the entire team has their contracts expire in 2 years. What a story it would be if FVV replaces Lowry as the starting PG after Lowry's deal expires.
The "FVV is signed" Raptors reddit thread has ~600 upvotes and 120 messages in 3 hours. FVV has developed a cult-like following.
i believe Shams "league source" is Blake Murphy.. who is ultra reliable.
EDIT: Michael Grange confirmed it.. so its a done deal.
On July 02 2018 00:05 Twinkle Toes wrote: I'm really curious what made PG choose OKC over LA, despite Westbrook, last year, Melo, KD, etc., and for 4 more years too! So practically prime PG will be OKC PG!
Westbrook is a good teammate. Durant also never trashed him even under cover of a burner account. Maybe he doesn't have the best decision making on the court but I hope him and PG find something special next year.
I'd guess that PG didn't feel very good as the "third banana" in the Lakers' courtship. Lakers & Lebron prolly kept encouraging him to wait and see what they did making him feel deprioritized. Meanwhile, OKC and Westbrook were spoonfeeding him love. It works out better for the league anyway. PG-Leonard-Lebron would have been the most talent assembled on any team since the 80s. Maybe they wouldn't be better than the Dubs, but they would be way more talented.
I think that's it for Lebron's finals streak, unless something amazing happens to this team... Good point for them is that the "you're trading for both Leonard and James!" tactic the Spurs have been using against LA isn't valid anymore.
On July 02 2018 12:17 JimmiC wrote: Lenord does not get to pick this year, pop does.
And its time to get over the stupid kd bitch narrative.
Yeah, more reason Kawhi will be sent to the East if Pop wants him out too, The KD is a bitch/snake narrative was stupid from the start, especially since people readily turn a blind eye that Lebron did it first and worse.
Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
Leonard is looking more and more bitchy himself. I would be curious to see what kind of legitimacy his complaints have. Supposedly it's about his injury and how the Spurs handled it (from the medical staff to teammates' comments), but it might just be about his "group" wanting to bounce to LA.
But him being traded to LA is completely different from how Durant handled his FA. The only way the KD move was going to be topped is if Lebron joined Golden State this year.
I must say. I'm one of those who think Durant made a weak move, but winning does makes things right. He damn made sure he had the best chances of winning, but he did deliver nonetheless. As it stands he has no real shot at an all-time top 10, but he got what he wanted out of his move at least.
On July 02 2018 13:32 ZenithM wrote: If he stays in GSW, Curry will enter the top 10 before him then :D.
Eh. Curry's upside on the all time list is currently headed downwards pretty rapidly (while his floor is increasing steadily) whereas Durant's floor and ceiling are both rising steadily. His inconsistent playoff performances are pretty bad for an all-timer's legacy. It would be like if after Shaq's first title in LA he turned into 2006 Shaq and had to be a second banana to Kobe the rest of the run.
On July 02 2018 13:15 ZenithM wrote: I must say. I'm one of those who think Durant made a weak move, but winning does makes things right. He damn made sure he had the best chances of winning, but he did deliver nonetheless. As it stands he has no real shot at an all-time top 10, but he got what he wanted out of his move at least.
This is more irrational hating than being objective Z. Durant is already clearly top 20, and is in good trajectory to be top 10, even 5. To disqualify him based on a good career decision which is consistent with his era, especially if people let Lebron slide with his own weak move, is being biased against KD.
All in all, this is the best choice for Lebron, especially considering it is a long term deal.
On July 02 2018 13:12 JimmiC wrote: Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
The King Has Landed: Making Sense of LeBron James in Purple and Gold
James has changed basketball several times over in the ways he’s reshaped free agency. Over the past few years, he’s done so by signing short-term contracts that enabled him to retain year-to-year control over his destiny, and we’ve seen the influence in the decision-making of a number of stars since. LeBron’s move to the West tilts the NBA landscape like a seesaw. The Eastern Conference has been unchained. The Celtics and Sixers will have an easier path to the NBA Finals for years to come; Giannis Antetokounmpo could lead the Bucks to the promised land; the Raptors (and Dwane Casey), meanwhile, are thinking his decision came one year too late. And now the Western Conference is more loaded than ever. The cloud James hung over the Eastern Conference this decade will now be felt on every team in the West. Teams on the playoff bubble like the Nuggets, Timberwolves, and Clippers have to be sulking, and suddenly the Rockets, the only worthy opponent the Warriors faced last season, have company.
But the Warriors are still gatekeepers of the West—and the league as a whole. They should be considered favorites even if the Lakers land Leonard. This reality has fans wondering why James would go West when the Sixers presented a better team and an easier Finals path. Aside from the fact this decision has to do with more than just basketball, it’s worth considering that the James has taken the opposite path of Kevin Durant, who took an easy route in signing with a 73-win team that nearly beat the Cavaliers in 2016.
James is going to a young, raw roster that hasn’t made the playoffs for five seasons. If James brings the Lakers back and stars a new era of glory days in Los Angeles, it’s another notch in his column for the GOAT argument. If LeBron wins a title or titles in Los Angeles, it’d mean that his team toppled the so-called inevitable Warriors dynasty in the most loaded conference in league history and then took down a formidable opponent in the East: Likely either the young, hungry Sixers or a Celtics team helmed by his former teammate in Kyrie Irving. The first major arc of LeBron’s career was defined by his losses to the Boston Celtics; over the years he’s reversed his fate against the storied franchise completely. Now, he has the chance to end his career as part of a greater chapter of the league’s most historic rivalry.
The Lakers ultimately provide LeBron with a world of upside: the chance to win another title with his third team in a new conference in a new era while guiding the most popular basketball franchise in the world back to the top of the league. L.A.’s implications on LeBron’s legacy far exceeds anything else he would have achieved in any other city. LeBron won’t catch the ghost he’s chasing without taking a risk. This is it.
On July 02 2018 15:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: meh, did Reggie Jackson make a bitch move when he signed with the New York Yankees? or CC Sabathia ... or Jimmy Key... or Johnny Damon?
its just a made up excuse to hate Durant.
Eh, I'm not really knowledgeable about other American sports, you'll have to give me a pass on that one :D. And on the Internet I guess anything short of full support is "hate". I highly respect Durant as a player (and human being in fact, he seems like a genuinely good dude), it's just the decision I'm disappointed in. It's where I realized the actual width of the gap between "NBA basketball as a business" and "basketball as a competitive sport", and I don't really like it. If everybody starts doing KD-type of moves in the future I'll have to get used to it I guess. I argued at length about that already so best is to let it rest. I'm already less virulent about Durant's move than I was before haha. Like I said, winning did kinda justify the move, I see how that would make a person happy.
On July 02 2018 15:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: meh, did Reggie Jackson make a bitch move when he signed with the New York Yankees? or CC Sabathia ... or Jimmy Key... or Johnny Damon?
its just a made up excuse to hate Durant.
Eh, I'm not really knowledgeable about other American sports, you'll have to give me a pass on that one :D. And on the Internet I guess anything short of full support is "hate". I highly respect Durant as a player (and human being in fact, he seems like a genuinely good dude), it's just the decision I'm disappointed in. It's where I realized the actual width of the gap between "NBA basketball as a business" and "basketball as a competitive sport", and I don't really like it. If everybody starts doing KD-type of moves in the future I'll have to get used to it I guess. I argued at length about that already so best is to let it rest. I'm already less virulent about Durant's move than I was before haha. Like I said, winning did kinda justify the move, I see how that would make a person happy.
The New York Yankees are the "super team" of MLB. The players named received little to no 2nd guessing about their decision to join the Yankees super team. They all left rival teams who fought hard against the Yankees only to join the super team in the next year.
On July 02 2018 13:32 ZenithM wrote: If he stays in GSW, Curry will enter the top 10 before him then :D.
I think the opposite, he joined them and bevame there best player. In the playoffs it has not been close. I dont see how you could rank curry as better when durrant is way way better on the d end and been way more consistent on the o end. And way more healthy
I'm not sure this is the best move for Lebron on a basketball basis. It's similar to a 60-year old getting a new job near a nursing home.
On July 02 2018 13:12 JimmiC wrote: Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
Kawhi wasn't a superstar until a few years in the NBA. In his case, I read somewhere (I forgot where - NY Times?) that this is due to an uncle who he trusts. Said uncle is insinuated as a greedy hanger on who is trying or has already succeeded in taking over Kawhi's business interests.
i''ve always wanted to hear a basketball commentator utter this great hockey line that gets said during brawls.... "folks, these 2 teams don't like each other"
johnny damon was definitely a bitch for joining the yankees, mainly because of his quotes where he stated he'd never go to the yankees, that he loved boston so much, etc
he also got paid way more there than he would have in boston, so you can't blame him, but you can certainly mock him
On July 03 2018 00:08 andrewlt wrote: I'm not sure this is the best move for Lebron on a basketball basis. It's similar to a 60-year old getting a new job near a nursing home.
On July 02 2018 13:12 JimmiC wrote: Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
Kawahi wasn't a superstar until a few years in the NBA. In his case, I read somewhere (I forgot where - NY Times?) that this is due to an uncle who he trusts. Said uncle is insinuated as a greedy hanger on who is trying or has already succeeded in taking over Kawhi's business interests.
Well he was drafted 15th overall and was pretty good in college and highschool. So not like lebron level but he was still aau and all that. There are guys who get coddled that dont even make it to college.
That uncle stuff is interesting. It sure has changed his image from quiet, teamoriented super star to trouble maker.
On July 03 2018 01:56 KOFgokuon wrote: johnny damon was definitely a bitch for joining the yankees, mainly because of his quotes where he stated he'd never go to the yankees, that he loved boston so much, etc
he also got paid way more there than he would have in boston, so you can't blame him, but you can certainly mock him
ah really? hmmm... i recall people in Boston whining about Damon but no one outside of Boston. When Jimmy Key left for New York no one in Toronto even blinked. The rest of the league/USA didn't care.
upon further reflection, i guess the thing that prevents these baseball players' decisions being labelled as a "bitch move" is that the new york yankees are always willing to pay more than any other team. so in that respect the parallel between GSW signing an FA and the NYY signing an FA breaks down.
On July 03 2018 00:08 andrewlt wrote: I'm not sure this is the best move for Lebron on a basketball basis. It's similar to a 60-year old getting a new job near a nursing home.
On July 02 2018 13:12 JimmiC wrote: Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
Kawahi wasn't a superstar until a few years in the NBA. In his case, I read somewhere (I forgot where - NY Times?) that this is due to an uncle who he trusts. Said uncle is insinuated as a greedy hanger on who is trying or has already succeeded in taking over Kawhi's business interests.
Well he was drafted 15th overall and was pretty good in college and highschool. So not like lebron level but he was still aau and all that. There are guys who get coddled that dont even make it to college.
That uncle stuff is interesting. It sure has changed his image from quiet, teamoriented super star to trouble maker.
Ok, this is one of the articles I've read before about the topic. Can't remember the others but this has enough info.
On July 03 2018 01:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i''ve always wanted to hear a basketball commentator utter this great hockey line that gets said during brawls.... "folks, these 2 teams don't like each other"
On July 03 2018 00:08 andrewlt wrote: I'm not sure this is the best move for Lebron on a basketball basis. It's similar to a 60-year old getting a new job near a nursing home.
On July 02 2018 13:12 JimmiC wrote: Not to mention coddled their whole lives. Most of the top top guys have been superstars since their early teens and have surrounded themselves with yes men.
Kawahi wasn't a superstar until a few years in the NBA. In his case, I read somewhere (I forgot where - NY Times?) that this is due to an uncle who he trusts. Said uncle is insinuated as a greedy hanger on who is trying or has already succeeded in taking over Kawhi's business interests.
Well he was drafted 15th overall and was pretty good in college and highschool. So not like lebron level but he was still aau and all that. There are guys who get coddled that dont even make it to college.
That uncle stuff is interesting. It sure has changed his image from quiet, teamoriented super star to trouble maker.
Ok, this is one of the articles I've read before about the topic. Can't remember the others but this has enough info.
On July 03 2018 01:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i''ve always wanted to hear a basketball commentator utter this great hockey line that gets said during brawls.... "folks, these 2 teams don't like each other"
That's the only way Philippine basketball gets in the news. Based on growing up there, they are really into it for a country full of midgets.
LOL, I think a lot of the team is not really from their, its dudes who played there long enough to get citizenship. I read Andre Blantche was on the team. Rolf.
Good article thanks.
Lakers signed Rondo which is interesting because he loves to always have the ball in his hands and make the pass for the assist. It has upset teammates because he does not always make the "right" pass he will hold till he can get an assist. Which will be interesting to see how it unfolds with LBJ who also has always had the ball in his hands. Maybe rondo will just control the bench. He is such a risk reward signing because at this best he's still a elite PG and at his worst he creates a ton of in fighting.
They also renounced Randle, which I find surprising I think he was effective. I wonder where he will go now he's a UFA. Maybe the Kings? They have no pick next year so no motivation to tank I think he could help them score and rebound.
Also for those of you interested in the complexities of the NBA cap. Cleaning the Glass, probably the top analytics NBA site out there. Lots is behind a paywall but this is not.
Blatche got Filipino citizenship even though he has no connection to the country. I don't think he ever played in the local league as an import beforehand. He is 1 inch shy of a being 7-footer but beggars can't be choosers. lol
When I was still there 20 years ago, the big thing was inviting players with mixed Filipino and taller race ancestry to be stars in the local league and/or join the national team. I don't follow the local league but most of the players in that report have local sounding names.
Rondo is a surprise signing for the Lakers. They are so far surrounding Lebron with loads of bricktastic 3-pt shooters. Their best 3-pt shooter might be Lebron.
Carrying a team single handedly in the east is different than the west. Having to potentially face both the Warriors and the Rockets and maybe a team like the Pelicans/Wolves in the first round is not an easy task.
I'm surprised the Warriors let go of McGee if he's signing with the Lakers for the minimum. I'm surprised Ariza went to the Suns but not surprised the Rockets let him go at that price tag.
I don't really recall what the Warriors' whole contract situation is. Maybe they had to let McGee go because like 2/3ds of their bench was big men. The playoffs really showcased a need in case either Stevenson or Iggy isn't at 100%.
They definitely had too many big men on their bench. McGee was their most effective traditional center whenever they used one. Him with 4 out of the 5 death lineup players seemed like one of the most effective lineups they had. And I'm pretty sure he was making the minimum there as well.
That's the only way Philippine basketball gets in the news. Based on growing up there, they are really into it for a country full of midgets.
Isn't there a joke about "you're playing with Filipinos when the tallest guy is the PG"? xD
@twinkletoes Plenty of people complained about James going to Miami. The prevailing counterargument, and I paraphrase here, was something along the lines of "stfu ur just a h8er". Even if you stripped away the more emotional complaints, it still represented an example of egregious collusion and acting in bad faith.
I think it's rather exciting that Lebron is going to the Lakers. You could argue, though, that Leonard's camp, purposefully or no, committed market tampering by making it known that they would only go to the Lakers. This seems like a pretty serious problem to me, considering the tradee has an incentive for his new team to retain as many of their assets as possible.
Well that was fast Randle signed with the pelicans for 2 years. So much for my Kings Idea.
I wonder if this signals Boogie lakers. I mean his predicted landing spots were Pelicans, (nope) MAvs (Deandre) and LA. So unless a surprise team jumps in the mix. Phx? Who knows, I'd say hemay be the back up prize if kahwi trade doesnt work out.
i also read on twitter lebron might have a minority ownership stake in the lakers now too? might've been bs, but another factor into why lebron would sign with the lakers
Anyone who hates Durant has to super hate on him he gave up at least 15 million this year to go there.
Jesus no wonder they didn't sign Javale.
Holy shit Boogie, Green, Durrant, Klay, Curry might best the best starting 5 in the history of the NBA.
Maybe the should run a tourny between the teams ranked 17-2 to see how gets to face the GSW and call that the championship and have the winner play GSW for the ultimate championship. This feels like a race for second if they stay healthy and the injury didn't make boogie useless.
I think he's planning on getting a ring on an injury shortened season then getting his payday the year after. Probably coming back in March just in time to get himself in shape for the playoffs.
On July 03 2018 11:20 Twinkle Toes wrote: Javale McGee as best starting 5 in NBA history? nah
I'm sure he means Igadola not McGee, McGee didn't start much.
Honestly, either. Not every player on any starting 5 is going to be an all-star. One of the best starting 5s of my lifetime had Luc Longley at center.
I'm talking across eras, I think the Golden State team last year was the best ever with the best ever starting 5. Considering how the 3 point shot has developed lately I don't think teams of the past can compete. I mean there's a reasonable chance that Steph, Klay, and KD will finish their careers as #1-3 of all time 3 pointers made. If not 1-3 then they will all almost certainly be top 5, with Steph and Klay being #1 and #2 for sure. Not to mention the fact that they are all in their primes.
On July 03 2018 11:20 Twinkle Toes wrote: Javale McGee as best starting 5 in NBA history? nah
I'm sure he means Igadola not McGee, McGee didn't start much.
Honestly, either. Not every player on any starting 5 is going to be an all-star. One of the best starting 5s of my lifetime had Luc Longley at center.
I'm talking across eras, I think the Golden State team last year was the best ever with the best ever starting 5. Considering how the 3 point shot has developed lately I don't think teams of the past can compete. I mean there's a reasonable chance that Steph, Klay, and KD will finish their careers as #1-3 of all time 3 pointers made. If not 1-3 then they will all almost certainly be top 5, with Steph and Klay being #1 and #2 for sure. Not to mention the fact that they are all in their primes.
Completely agree and green is the Jack of all trades and Defensive savant that brings it all together, who also happens to be, like his teammates great unselfish passers. I think the unselfishness of the team is a large part of what makes them so great.
I am of the camp that 2015-18 people massively overrated the Warriors talent because of their good results, which was just as much about system and fit. But if Boogie can be 70% of what he was, that will be a monstrously talented group.
Quick thing to note that I don't think anyone has said yet. Boogie has been talking all year about getting a max contract with as many years as possible(or at least something comparable). Teams have likely been more or less weary about giving him so much money for a long term deal this offseason, probably throwing him conservative offers (less money and/or fewer years) in case he doesn't return to full form. Boogie's goal here is probably to ball-out for this one year and get paid next offseason by the highest bidder, Kinda like DRose's plan with the Cavs last year. Winning a ring is a plus
On July 03 2018 13:31 KlassicSC2 wrote: Quick thing to note that I don't think anyone has said yet. Boogie has been talking all year about getting a max contract with as many years as possible(or at least something comparable). Teams have likely been more or less weary about giving him so much money for a long term deal this offseason, probably throwing him conservative offers (less money and/or fewer years) in case he doesn't return to full form. Boogie's goal here is probably to ball-out for this one year and get paid next offseason by the highest bidder, Kinda like DRose's plan with the Cavs last year. Winning a ring is a plus
Spiteful me would like to see Boogie come back from his injury the same way IT came back from his. Imagine if this ring ends up costing him $100 million in the long run.
NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Edit: Meanwhile the Lakers are surrounding Lebron with the LeBrick squad.
On July 03 2018 15:45 ZenithM wrote: NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Its quite staggering how much money guys are willing to give up to chase rings. But the money is staggering I guess they figure, with endorsements I can make 300 million and lose or 225 million in my career and win. What is the lifestyle difference? 75 million is huge but can you live that different earning 300 compared to 225?
The super max was thought to stop this by making it so guys would stay because they could make more, but the top guys are turning it down and it is so much the owners are scared to give it to others.
Im not sure how they bargin to fix this, or if they want to. As much as some say it is killing basketball, ratings and revenues disagree. GSW is killing the NBA is as true as REAL Madrid killed Soccer.
On July 03 2018 15:45 ZenithM wrote: NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Edit: Meanwhile the Lakers are surrounding Lebron with the LeBrick squad.
I think the Boogie thing is clearly a Fuck-You to the offers he was getting. He thinks that he is a max player and no one was offering (plus most people easily see that in the next two years a ton of the shitty huge contracts signed by retarded teams will expire). Whether he is foolish or smart is entirely a gamble, but its not too silly to turn down a 2x19 contract for a 1x5 if you think the 1x5 has a much better chance of leading to a 4x40.
On July 03 2018 15:45 ZenithM wrote: NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Edit: Meanwhile the Lakers are surrounding Lebron with the LeBrick squad.
Only time will tell how fans look back on these championships. For KD and Boogie a ring they would have gotten with DNPs is still better than no ring at all. I honestly think the only person whose legacy this hurts is Steph. He had back to back MVPs, back to back Finals appearances, and he was the sole leader of a Warriors team that was built as organically as possible. Now he's just a piece in a super team. Who knows what his ceiling would have been before these superstars decided to hop on the bandwagon.
On July 03 2018 16:33 ZenithM wrote: I've read that too, I can see that being true. But in my mind there is no fuck-you-league "ironic" ring chasing :D. It's just ring chasing.
On July 03 2018 15:45 ZenithM wrote: NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Edit: Meanwhile the Lakers are surrounding Lebron with the LeBrick squad.
Only time will tell how fans look back on these championships. For KD and Boogie a ring they would have gotten with DNPs is still better than no ring at all. I honestly think the only person whose legacy this hurts is Steph. He had back to back MVPs, back to back Finals appearances, and he was the sole leader of a Warriors team that was built as organically as possible. Now he's just a piece in a super team. Who knows what his ceiling would have been before these superstars decided to hop on the bandwagon.
IMO both these arguments are wrong. At the outset, I think its obvious that there is a certain subset of shitty NBA franchises that simply degrade the value of any player who lands there. Examples that readily come to mind (over the past few years) are Brooklyn, Cleveland, Orlando, Sacramento, and New York.
So for Boogie, he perceives that the Dubs are a place where people outperform expectations. I agree. They are one of two franchises where this is clearly true recently: Golden State, Boston. If we extended the window I would be tempted to also add San Antonio because of Manu and Parker (and even Kahwi).
Thus, Boogie is simply trying to maximize, ring chasing is a side affect because most teams are run by (on the court, not always the front office) by people who are not compatible.
In addition, Steph is not being hurt by what is happening. Rather, it is just simply solidifying him in a place he would have dropped out of. If we imagine a place where 2015-2016 remain the same, and Durant never comes to Golden State, Curry is basically Derrick Rose with a title with an asterisk. If we are being honest, the 2015-16 Warriors were a transitional team that defined the new style, but were not going to be the best team once other teams figured it out. The Cavs beat them, OKC should have, and this was essentially the team that invented the west coast offense (San Fransisco would have never lost even a 5 game series in the early Walsh years). Thus, Steph is being slowly elevated despite being the #2, because no sane person thinks he would have been the #1 on a title team in the last 2 years.
So for Boogie, he perceives that the Dubs are a place where people outperform expectations.
Source on this?
Demarcus just wants an easy rehab on a team that won't need him, that's about it. He has no expectation/pressure to perform there at all. What's being said supports the rehab + ring chasing theory. He's not going there for the "culture" or whatever. I think his time with Team USA buddying up with Draymond and Durant helped too. + Show Spoiler +
(Edit: I've also read that actually not much of the rest of the league wants him, and not willing to put a high price :D. In that case it makes perfect sense. He's maybe seen as a locker room cancer and not worth it after the injury.)
Even if the "outperform expectations" bit is yours and not Demarcus', you only talk of Golden State and Boston, which coincidentally enough are the favorites this year to win their conference. Maybe they're just 2 good well-coached teams, and not teams where people outperform expectations. Saying they're outperforming expectations make it sound like they're not insanely talented. The only guy on GSW to have outperformed is Draymond. And on Boston I don't know, they have a lot of young high draft picks, I'm not sure what's surprising about these guys doing well. And obviously role players are going to look good, it's easy to play basketball on a good team. I quote my boy Durant: "Imagine all the open shots I would get!"
On July 03 2018 16:33 ZenithM wrote: I've read that too, I can see that being true. But in my mind there is no fuck-you-league "ironic" ring chasing :D. It's just ring chasing.
On July 03 2018 15:45 ZenithM wrote: NO did say they offered him a higher contract than GSW. He could have "balled out" with about every other team. But they can't offer the same #culture, for sure. I really hope not every NBA player in the future has the same mindset. You have to realize that a ring you could have gotten by getting DNPs every game doesn't have much value.
In retrospect though, 1 or 2 more of these will make what Durant did look completely okay real quick, even to me xD.
Edit: Meanwhile the Lakers are surrounding Lebron with the LeBrick squad.
Only time will tell how fans look back on these championships. For KD and Boogie a ring they would have gotten with DNPs is still better than no ring at all. I honestly think the only person whose legacy this hurts is Steph. He had back to back MVPs, back to back Finals appearances, and he was the sole leader of a Warriors team that was built as organically as possible. Now he's just a piece in a super team. Who knows what his ceiling would have been before these superstars decided to hop on the bandwagon.
IMO both these arguments are wrong. At the outset, I think its obvious that there is a certain subset of shitty NBA franchises that simply degrade the value of any player who lands there. Examples that readily come to mind (over the past few years) are Brooklyn, Cleveland, Orlando, Sacramento, and New York.
So for Boogie, he perceives that the Dubs are a place where people outperform expectations. I agree. They are one of two franchises where this is clearly true recently: Golden State, Boston. If we extended the window I would be tempted to also add San Antonio because of Manu and Parker (and even Kahwi).
Thus, Boogie is simply trying to maximize, ring chasing is a side affect because most teams are run by (on the court, not always the front office) by people who are not compatible.
In addition, Steph is not being hurt by what is happening. Rather, it is just simply solidifying him in a place he would have dropped out of. If we imagine a place where 2015-2016 remain the same, and Durant never comes to Golden State, Curry is basically Derrick Rose with a title with an asterisk. If we are being honest, the 2015-16 Warriors were a transitional team that defined the new style, but were not going to be the best team once other teams figured it out. The Cavs beat them, OKC should have, and this was essentially the team that invented the west coast offense (San Fransisco would have never lost even a 5 game series in the early Walsh years). Thus, Steph is being slowly elevated despite being the #2, because no sane person thinks he would have been the #1 on a title team in the last 2 years.
Pretty sure this just proves my point about Steph. He was the first ever unanimous MVP, had one of the greatest seasons ever by posting 30+ PPG on 50/45/91 splits, made 400+ 3's when no other player has ever made even 300, and led his team to the most wins ever in a regular season, and what should have been their 2nd straight championship, yet somehow "no sane person thinks he would been the #1 on a title team" the very next year. Going from first ever unanimous MVP to Derrick Rose with an asterisk all in the span of 2 years just shows how much his legacy has been hurt already.
The Cavs beat them, OKC should have
OKC didn't beat them and the Cavs shouldn't have. They also would have been the favorites to win the next year even if KD didn't join them. In fact, Vegas did have them as the favorites to win the next year before KD joined them.
In before cousins averages 6/8/1 and can’t get a whiff of a contract above 6 mill per annum. He can’t possiblh expect to put up stats with how loaded the lineup is
It's not just a physical rehab. Two years in Golden State did wonders for Javale McGee's image in the league. Cousins could both rehab physically while rehabbing his locker room image this year. If he plays well, he can sign a bigger, longer contract with another team next year. He's only 27, slightly younger than their core.
I mostly agree with clutz, even though I rate Steph higher than he does. The talent in Golden State wasn't regarded that highly before Steve Kerr. People had them pegged as a first or second round playoff exit. It was only after they won a championship and went for that 73-win season afterwards that people talked about all the talent they have. System and fit played a huge part in their rise.
Brad Stevens is regarded as an exceptional coach because Boston hasn't won anything yet. If they win a championship, the players will suddenly grow more talented in the eyes of the public and the narrative will change to a team so talented that the coach doesn't need to do anything.
He will get some numbers. Though collectively the numbers will drop his will be fine. GSW are amazing at sharing the ball.
As for the maximizing plan if that is his it is a huge risk. Not only did he give up at least 10 million this year but there is no gaurantee that big max comes.
Look at Noel I bet he is not feeling great about his choice to turn down the 4 year 70 mil to get 1 year 4.3 and become a UFA!
Eh, Javale got a minimum deal to LA. He averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds on 10-12 minutes a game. I'm not sure you would call that "helped his image". He's mostly the same player he always was. It's just that Shaq let him off the hook recently. He had a good FG% on really small volume surrounded by insane scoring (homegrown or not). He got a couple of nice defensive possessions too, cool. Like I said, playing on a good team makes your limited role very easy.
The idea that GS is coasting on pure talent might be overexaggerating, but so is saying that their role players outperform expectations, or that their image improves magically.
McGee isn't a good comparison for Demarcus, Demarcus will have to do MUCH more if he wants a max salary next year.
If he is even 75% what he was yesterday he will do fine. He will be a threat to get triple doubles every night. He can shoot the three, dude is amazing on offense and grabs D rebounds because he super tall! He will put up better numbers then green but worse numbers then before. (my prediction) This will help his image because no one questioned his numbers the questions on him were can he be a team player and will he sacrifice to win so if he does and they do that should help.
With McGee it was can he not be a knucklehead, and I think at GSW he showed that he can be a useful bench player. He wont' get a big deal, because he has reached his potential which is lower then people originally hoped but he could have a long career as a bench big which is OK.
ironically, we're at the point where many vocal fans would rather see players just get every dime they can in a contract for maximum cash for the sake of parity rather than get paid a bit less to be in a better overall team situation.
for all the complaining... the NBA is still bringing in record revenues every year.
On July 04 2018 00:27 andrewlt wrote: Brad Stevens is regarded as an exceptional coach because Boston hasn't won anything yet. If they win a championship, the players will suddenly grow more talented in the eyes of the public and the narrative will change to a team so talented that the coach doesn't need to do anything.
yep. that is what happened to Cito Gaston. i find the "friendly nice guy" coaches get stuck with this label after winning a championship. Whereas, the total-asshole complete-prick coaches continue to get revered as "tough-as-nails geniuses".
https://www.blazersedge.com/2018/7/2/17528082/portland-trail-blazers-g-league-team-vancouver-canada it'll be cool for the Vancouver region to get a G League team. i wouldn't be surprised if this was intentionally leaked so that the Trailblazers can get a better arena deal in a better location. The way it stands this would be like the Knicks sticking their G-League team in Catskill New York or the Raptors putting their G League team in Bolton.
ironically, we're at the point where many vocal fans would rather see players just get every dime they can in a contract for maximum cash for the sake of parity rather than get paid a bit less to be in a better overall team situation.
Ironically, no? People are complaining about signing Chris Paul for that high and that long too.
If Demarcus' best offer was really an 8M/year for 2 years, then yes it's a good call. But there is a certain threshold where if he left X amount of money on the table, it's just pure ring chasing, let's not kid ourselves. Without all the information, it's NOT unreasonable to think Demarcus is after the easy ring as much as the easy rehab. I actually don't think his gamble will pay off as much as he hopes. Golden State isn't going to give him all their touches just so he can get a good contract next year. The one that might get screwed stat-wise in this story is Klay.
if I were the celts I'd sit on my players (other than the incoming draft picks) and tell him to go away
While the celts are certainly in win-mode territory, they certainly don't need more guard/forwards to go into their rotation. I'd rather grow organically with brown and tatum than trade them plus assets to get butler, plus they'd have to take on salary and trade either gordon or horford. seems bad man
On July 04 2018 00:47 ZenithM wrote: Eh, Javale got a minimum deal to LA. He averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds on 10-12 minutes a game. I'm not sure you would call that "helped his image". He's mostly the same player he always was. It's just that Shaq let him off the hook recently. He had a good FG% on really small volume surrounded by insane scoring (homegrown or not). He got a couple of nice defensive possessions too, cool. Like I said, playing on a good team makes your limited role very easy.
The idea that GS is coasting on pure talent might be overexaggerating, but so is saying that their role players outperform expectations, or that their image improves magically.
McGee isn't a good comparison for Demarcus, Demarcus will have to do MUCH more if he wants a max salary next year.
It's not about pure numbers. Javale went from clown to positive contributor on a championship team. Not everybody in the league is high minute starter material. Good bench player is a better image than useless clown.
And reputable sources I've read are indicating that Demarcus wasn't getting anything other than midlevel ($8m/1 yr or $16m/2 yr). The market for him really dried up so he was the one who told his agent to contact the Warriors on Monday.
On July 04 2018 02:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ironically, we're at the point where many vocal fans would rather see players just get every dime they can in a contract for maximum cash for the sake of parity rather than get paid a bit less to be in a better overall team situation.
Maybe that's because we've transitioned from a parochial, "home team" mindset to a national, league-wide mindset where the the joy of bandwaggoning doesn't make up for utterly forgettable regular seasons with 4 worthwhile games.
On July 04 2018 04:55 KOFgokuon wrote: if I were the celts I'd sit on my players (other than the incoming draft picks) and tell him to go away
While the celts are certainly in win-mode territory, they certainly don't need more guard/forwards to go into their rotation. I'd rather grow organically with brown and tatum than trade them plus assets to get butler, plus they'd have to take on salary and trade either gordon or horford. seems bad man
I agree with you on Brown and Tatum or horford, but they won't be able to keep all their guys and butler is a top 5 or at worst top 10 talent. He is game changing on both sides. If Ainge looks at his cap picture and realizes he won't be able sign smart and or rozier I think it would be worth starting with them and seeing what else was needed. A guy like smart would probably fit in as they desperately need low usage, super active D guy . And then possibly Hayword depending on how much of and upgrade you think Butler is.
On July 04 2018 00:47 ZenithM wrote: Eh, Javale got a minimum deal to LA. He averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds on 10-12 minutes a game. I'm not sure you would call that "helped his image". He's mostly the same player he always was. It's just that Shaq let him off the hook recently. He had a good FG% on really small volume surrounded by insane scoring (homegrown or not). He got a couple of nice defensive possessions too, cool. Like I said, playing on a good team makes your limited role very easy.
The idea that GS is coasting on pure talent might be overexaggerating, but so is saying that their role players outperform expectations, or that their image improves magically.
McGee isn't a good comparison for Demarcus, Demarcus will have to do MUCH more if he wants a max salary next year.
It's not about pure numbers. Javale went from clown to positive contributor on a championship team. Not everybody in the league is high minute starter material. Good bench player is a better image than useless clown.
And reputable sources I've read are indicating that Demarcus wasn't getting anything other than midlevel ($8m/1 yr or $16m/2 yr). The market for him really dried up so he was the one who told his agent to contact the Warriors on Monday.
It's not about pure numbers, but it's not about number of Shaqtin' appearances either. His clown image was exacerbated by that show, the same way his "good bench player" one is reinforced by playing with so little pressure. He hasn't changed that much, and GMs should be able to see that. And "outperforming expectations" is different from looking good in a ridiculously limited role on the best team.
I mean, its a really really bad year to be a free agent. Most of the teams with good culture are capped out. In addition, most of them already have a big man like Embiid, Horford, Towns, Capela (although he might leave), Aldridge. I guess he also could have looked at Washington and Indiana, but I don't think they have all that much cap room either.
A fairly unreliable reporter with a checkered reputation waits for the nanosecond Jimmy Butler and his agent step onto an airplane for a 14 hour flight to Europe. Then the reporter publishes his "inside scoop" on how Butler doesn't like his team mates lax attitude and won't re-sign unless 1 of his team mates is traded.
After getting off the plane.. here is the response to that "Butler won't re-sign unless Townes is traded" report.
While I understand why they won't, I wish these players wouldn't use their entourage to state their beef and would just flat out say, fuck that guy, I want out
This entire kawhi situation would be so much more clear if he just said, the spurs misdiagnosed me, they trashed me in the media, i'm out on this team, trade me or i'm walking for nothing.
Then I wouldn't have to listen to steven a smith rambling on and speculating about nothing
Let's assume that Kawhi came about and personally told everybody how he really felt. Do you mean Stephen A Smith wouldn't be rambling on and speculating about nothing or that he will but you just wouldn't be listening to it? I'm sure he'll still be doing A. That's his job.
On July 04 2018 08:27 ZenithM wrote: Might be that a lot of teams didn't even have time to make an offer to Cousins and he pounced on that ring the first chance he got
That's the risk you take by waiting in a bidding market. Teams had years to plan for free agency. The only reason not to submit the offer at midnight on the first day is if you're trying to lowball a player. If a player waited for more offers, good teams could have signed somebody else and he'll be left with offers from unpalatable destinations.
On July 05 2018 22:09 KOFgokuon wrote: While I understand why they won't, I wish these players wouldn't use their entourage to state their beef and would just flat out say, fuck that guy, I want out
This entire kawhi situation would be so much more clear if he just said, the spurs misdiagnosed me, they trashed me in the media, i'm out on this team, trade me or i'm walking for nothing.
Then I wouldn't have to listen to steven a smith rambling on and speculating about nothing
Because if he actually said that then people would challenge you. Whereas if you just say it in your head, it remains perfectly reasonable without having to think too hard about it.
Toronto's new head coach says they might experiment with having Derozan guard all stars rather than hiding him against a poor offensive player.
It's nice to see Toronto management publicly acknowledge Derozan is a poor defender.
Derozan and Lowry are supposed to be super buds. Lowry would throw himself in front of school bus to divert an opposing offensive scheme.. Derozan dies on screens by guys he outweights by 30+ lbs. For close buddies... its weird how much effort and intelligence Lowry puts into defending and how little Derozan puts into defending.
What's going on with Isaiah Thomas right now? A while back I predicted he would be lucky to get a contract, let alone cash in on his last Boston year for a max contract.
Is he just vastly overestimating his worth before he settles for a league minimum? Or was I right?
Last thing I read his hip is still not 100%, and he is over valuing himself. I mean Boogie gets 4.3, this is not 2016 when bums like Mozgov got paid! If he is smart (and dude has a massive chip on his shoulder so who knows if he will be), he will take a 1 year deal somewhere where he can get playing time and set himself up for 2019 when more teams have cap space. IT needs his speed maybe more then anyone else so if he is not healthy you may be right. And that would be eating some crow because I thought you were crazy.
A 1-year deal could also backfire if he's unable to return to form and just cements his new status as a chucker that can't play defense. Then his value tanks even further next off-season when he's on the wrong side of 30. I guess it depends on what kind of offers he is getting.
He ended up playing up to his last contract. He was worth it for Bos, the big issue with him is the attitude that made him overcome his shortcomings (pun intended) is the same thing that will keep him from fitting the roll, lead scorer for the second unit, that fits him best.
I could see a tanking team looking to butts in the seats giving him a decent one year deal if he can stay healthy. Some one like ATL.
It really depends on your goal and your mental adjustment for Brad Stevens. For most teams he's prolly an inefficient 15 PPG with no defense. On most teams that is numbers you only tolerate out of a rookie, or a bench guy that actually ends up with 7 PPG, like a poor man's Jamal Crawford. Even comparing him to Lou Williams is an insult to Lou Williams.
And, the worst part about your idea is if somehow you are right, he becomes a dilemma between benching a vet that has no future with you that fans like, vs. securing your draft slot. The only reason he kinda worked for the Celtics was because they had him in a pick swap year.
If hes inefficient he will make you lose more then he helps you win helping you get a better draft slot while fans liking the little guy putting up numbers!
Three straight #2s is good. Can't expect other teams to have Cleveland's luck of three #1s in four years. Of course, who they drafted with those picks is another matter, though I've seen some people be really high on Ingram.
So... HOU lost Ariza to PHO HOU lost Mbah la Bamba to LAC
but... HOU will get Me70.
I don't know how over the hill Melo is, but while there are 99 reasons against him, there is one positive in that he was really not able to play to his strengths in OKC (controversial opinion since he got 4-5 wide open threes per game in OKC on very low usage). But the hope is that with Houston's iso-centered system, with Paul as his "whisperer" he will flourish and be more effective. So that's the 1% hope that Houston fans can cling to.
Gottdammit why would Morey do this? Is there some arcane knowledge to this acquisition? Why couldn't Melo just join his other banana boat buddy in Lakers to complete that meme squad!
Well it is not a either or. Both guys left for way more money then hou could pay. So it makes sense for them to grab some sort of replacement. Now melo is no star but he is still useful as long as he can understand his roll. Hopefully he does.
But at any rate you are playing for second anyhow so they have a shot at that!
I dont think Rockets will even be top 4 in the West now. And is it just me or did the Mavs just become a legit playoffs team again. They might be the sleeper team this offseason.
Well the mavs gave up their 2019 pick so you know they going for it. I guess they could sneak in the bottom of the top 8 but the west is so hard.
I think the rockets will still be top 4, but if they lose Capela they could drop.
Way to early west top 8.
Winning the title 1. GSW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should be playoff locks (2,3,4,5) OKC, Min, NO, Hou, Fighting for 6,7,8 Por, Jazz, Nugs, LAL, Dal
Sac doesn't have their pick either so I could see them trying to get there but I doubt them, because they are the kings.
I honestly can't see Lebron not making the playoffs. That would be so weird :D. Feelings aside, I think the Lakers can make it. If their young guys just develop even remotely as expected they're a decent team. They just have a huge hole at Center I guess.
Aside from potential trades, a bunch of restricted free agents in limbo and some mid-to-lower-tier guys still available, much of the NBA offseason's activity is done. LeBron James is a member of an extremely strange Los Angeles Lakers team, Paul George is not, and more than two full rosters worth of players signed one-year deals. That doesn't mean, however, that there's nothing to ponder and speculate about as the moratorium is about to be lifted. With five questions, let's take a look at the landscape of the league:
Thanks that makes sense. He probably is a bot TBH. To your point about Lebron and the playoffs yes it would be odd if he didn't make it. I would currently bet he does but in the 7 or 8 slot and it wouldn't be surprising to see him miss.
Also, not to jinx him but his run of incredible health seems unlikely to continue forever. And if he misses any games I could see them missing quite easily.
I'm not so sure about Melo's fit with the Rockets. Their iso-heavy system is for Harden and CP3. Melo isos mean that neither Harden nor CP3 have the ball.
Mark Cuban seems really determined to drag Nowitzki's cadaver to the playoffs one last time before they mummify him. Lots of win now moves from him.
On July 11 2018 23:57 andrewlt wrote: I'm not so sure about Melo's fit with the Rockets. Their iso-heavy system is for Harden and CP3. Melo isos mean that neither Harden nor CP3 have the ball.
Mark Cuban seems really determined to drag Nowitzki's cadaver to the playoffs one last time before they mummify him. Lots of win now moves from him.
It makes sense, they traded their next year pick to ATL for Donic so doing bad won't help them and then next year there is 200 (compared to 120) FA and they will have lots of cap space. I'm a fan of the move I hate long tanks.
True, but they had a chance to get him without paying anything. That's the kind of move that only works if you are smarter than the other team. Even if you are equally as smart, it seems the other team wins more often than not.
Players that have put up 28+ PPG on 62+ TS% in the last 25 years:
Kevin Durant Stephen Curry Isaiah Thomas
Have to feel a little bad for the guy, would have gotten paid if his FA was 1 year earlier. At the same time I don't think he should have been paid more than he's worth, so sometimes that's just life.
On July 08 2018 08:38 Nemireck wrote: Is he just vastly overestimating his worth before he settles for a league minimum?
Nailed it!
I DO hope he is able to turn things around though, a 5'7 guard who finds a way to be successful despite 0 defensive ability could be easy to cheer for if hos attitide improves.
He's got his prove it deal. And there is lots of teams with money next year and not everyone will end up with Kawhi so he still might get paid. It will be interesting long term to see who's injury cost them more, Boogie or IT.
On July 08 2018 08:38 Nemireck wrote: Is he just vastly overestimating his worth before he settles for a league minimum?
Nailed it!
I DO hope he is able to turn things around though, a 5'7 guard who finds a way to be successful despite 0 defensive ability could be easy to cheer for if hos attitide improves.
that's not bad... but wasn't there someone on here that predicted this outcome several months ago?
On July 08 2018 08:38 Nemireck wrote: Is he just vastly overestimating his worth before he settles for a league minimum?
Nailed it!
I DO hope he is able to turn things around though, a 5'7 guard who finds a way to be successful despite 0 defensive ability could be easy to cheer for if hos attitide improves.
that's not bad... but wasn't there someone on here that predicted this outcome several months ago?
Yeah, me.
I said there was no way he was getting paid and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even get signed.
On July 08 2018 08:38 Nemireck wrote: Is he just vastly overestimating his worth before he settles for a league minimum?
Nailed it! I DO hope he is able to turn things around though, a 5'7 guard who finds a way to be successful despite 0 defensive ability could be easy to cheer for if hos attitide improves.
that's not bad... but wasn't there someone on here that predicted this outcome several months ago?
Yeah, me. I said there was no way he was getting paid and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even get signed.
On July 14 2018 02:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:]ah ok. good call then. you were very close.
On February 03 2018 11:05 Nemireck wrote: I'm still not certain he gets any real contract offers after this one is up. Dude is too short and 20ppg isn't worth that shit on D. Maybe 10mil per year as a bench scorer, if he improves his attitude.
Looks like I was off by about 8 million, I'd say I split the difference on that one since I didn't expect him to get a contract at all.
Geez, that was back in February. No wonder I still had mid-level exception on my mind. I must have figured that even though I didn't expect him to get a contract, that if he did end up getting one, it would be comparable to most teams bench scorer.
I think basic mid-level is around $8.5m this year. Teams have been pretty restrained this year but I expect them to go full retard again next year. I'm kinda fuzzy on the cap situation but it looks like a lot of 2016 contracts expire next year and in 2020.
Hey guys just threw together an all time team and wondering for any input on it or if people like it. criteria i used is most powerful/greatest players of all time team with at least 2+ for one starter and one backup at each position, and team cannot have above 15 total players which is the max roster size for an nba team. here's my team:
starting 5: 1. Magic Johnson 2. Michael Jordan 3. LeBron James 4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, ferdinand alcindor 5. Shaquille O'neal
Bench: Baron Davis Kobe Bryant Julius Erving Tim Duncan William felton Russell Wilt Chamberlain Dwayne Wade Wardell Stephen Curry Dirk Nowitzki Carmelo Anthony
People agree? Anyone come up with a team they think can beat my team in a 48min game/ 7game playoff series?
On July 14 2018 08:05 funnybananaman wrote: Hey guys just threw together an all time team and wondering for any input on it or if people like it. criteria i used is most powerful/greatest players of all time team with at least 2+ for one starter and one backup at each position, and team cannot have above 15 total players which is the max roster size for an nba team. here's my team:
1. Magic Johnson 2. Michael Jordan 3. Lebron James 4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, ferdinand alcindor 5. Shaquille O'neal
Baron Davis Kobe Bryant Julius Erving Tim Duncan Bill Russell Wilt Chamberlain Dwayne Wade Wardell Stephen Curry Dirk Nowitzki Carmelo Anthony
People agree? Anyone come up with a team they think can beat my team in a 48min game/ 7game playoff series?
Melo makes it no where close to any all time team I make sane with baron davis. As mentioned shooting, ray allen, Miller, bird, the logo,oscar robertson, kg.
Ya, I don't see the point of Magic on a team with LeBron except as backup PG (both would play PG on any all time team they are placed on). Then at 2/3 you go Jordan + Kobe/Bird depending on whether you want more defense or better passing it of that position.
4/5 is era dependant. Pre-2004 you prolly take 2 of Kareem/Shaq/Duncan. Post 2004 you take 1 + Durant.
This is why making top starting 5s is a bad way to evaluate all time lists.
On July 14 2018 08:48 JimmiC wrote: Melo makes it no where close to any all time team I make sane with baron davis. As mentioned shooting, ray allen, Miller, bird, the logo,oscar robertson, kg.
Any all time list will be good though
Hmm alot of those players were tough omissions for me but how do you add in Ray Allen or Reggie Miller at SG remember you can have 15 total players only, assuming your team plays by NBA roster size guidelines and can compete as 1 of 30 NBA teams in a hypothetical season. O-Robert and Garnett almost made my team but had to put in lebron Duncan and some other guys i like Melo more then Oscar and Duncan-Nowitzki over garnett filling out those positions for me. Could see an argument for younger Garnett over Dirk N. but i prefer dirks shooting. Player needs to have played at listed position in an NBA game/season for me to add them to that position so for LeBron i could not add him at PG since he has always played the 3/SF in the NBA. Durant could have made my team, possibly for Anthony but Anthonys size makes him a more powerful choice for Bench backup 3. Neither Anthony nor Durant can really defend or known for Defense so if you wanted a Defending specialist you could add Ron Artest or a specialist choice like him. Baron Davis is one of the most complete people at PG i've seen and i really like him here but you could argue for Steve Nash or Jason kidd too at his slot. I think he makes the team i made more electrifying and interesting.could be like a stim-pack of buckets off the bench in 6th man backup guard and if he plays bad just put in Wade in his place at 4th quarter/ imporant moments. Johnson had best Pts/Assist/fg% over 50% his entire NBA career plus nba champion so he was the best choice to me at starting point Guard.
If you don't want to play Lebron at point you can just move Jordan there because he played over half a season at point. Your list has way too many offense-only players to compete with a team with 5-10 2 way players. Plus, what is the point of a defensive specialist when you can just get Scottie Pippen or Finals MVP Kawhi?
How doesn't Melo's size put him over Durant (ignoring how you seem to have missed the last 3 seasons of increasingly excellent defense from Durant)? Why not Karl Malone then?
And now, writing all this I realize I am responding to a person who has never watched basketball.
On July 01 2018 01:16 MassHysteria wrote: I see where you are going but it seems different in this case. That reported meniscus injury was already known and it was the same injury he has/had been dealing with, it just became public. The Lakers, by law, aren't allowed to release/disclose player's medical reports or w/e you wanna call it to the public during the summer (according to Ramona). And who would gain the most from this leaking amid possible trade rumors? Ball's camp is where the signs are pointing to with the timing of this.
the key line is "General manager Rob Pelinka said this week that Ball will be fully healthy for training camp."
so it'll be the kind of surgery where they cut away the damaged part and no "sewing and healing" is required. This also means his career is on the clock. No MRI is 100%.. the only way to know for sure is to go in and look directly. If they have to cut away a substantial part of his knee cartilage then he'll have a hard time playing past age 32 or 33. If he injures the cartilage on that knee again you can take a few more years off of that.
a lot of players in their late teens and early 20s opt to get the cartilage sewn up and repaired so it can fully heal 100% the way Derrick Rose did this with his 1st cartilage injury. I'm kind of surprised at Ball only being 20 they are not attempting this method. It is a longer healing time, however, it leads to 100% healing and a 100% in tact cartilage.
it wouldn't surprise me at all if Lonzo's dad is calling all the shots here.... which is really sad.
On July 14 2018 12:40 cLutZ wrote: If you don't want to play Lebron at point you can just move Jordan there because he played over half a season at point. Your list has way too many offense-only players to compete with a team with 5-10 2 way players. Plus, what is the point of a defensive specialist when you can just get Scottie Pippen or Finals MVP Kawhi?
How doesn't Melo's size put him over Durant (ignoring how you seem to have missed the last 3 seasons of increasingly excellent defense from Durant)? Why not Karl Malone then?
And now, writing all this I realize I am responding to a person who has never watched basketball.
Ok man im not gonna even start with you if you're really saying Jordan is a Point Guard and not a Shooting Guard... Steve Kerr was Point guard on the bulls.. jordan is obviously a 2 im not gonna put someone as athletic as him as the distributor and ball walker up the floor when his entire game is midrange scoreing with his strong legs. If u have 2 Shooting Guards playing in the backcourt yea i mean it could work like Kobe and Jordan both in starting 5 but you're gonna have some arguments between those players as to who'se passing to whom when and who's shooting the shots on offensive trips? Point guard is important to a successful team talking about a natural part of basketball and positions. Lubricates the whole offense and enables a coach on the floor type person, very important on a team. Malone i thought about putting him yea, but i just dont really like him that much and he kind of looks like a truck driver / lazy type player. Never won a nba championship also. To me he's inferior to the versatility of TD and Dirk but he was very physically strong. It's really a question of how many Power Forwards do you want on the team and Small Forwards, 5 of one and 2 of the other or 3 of each. I went with 3PF and 3 SF. Scottie Pippen also a tough one to leave off, but is he really better than LeBron (clearly no) Julius Erving (arguable but i think no), or Carmelo (probably most arguable but carmelo has the most team USA gold medals of anyone) so i dont see what Pip contributes to the all time team more than these 3 to earn him a spot in the 15. Kawhi Leonard, yeah a tough omission, could give him a spot on this team over Erving but Erving was the more entertaining and successful player imo thus far, 3x NBa champion and 2time regular season MVP. I have watched alot of basketball and Jordan would've made a horrible Point Guard hence his carreer both at UNC and in the NBa as a 2-shooting guard, aka wearing 23 for the amount of points u can score in a basketball shot, 2 or 3. Shot=Shooting=Shooting guard.
Birds defense just average , but he didn’t have anyone like LeBron or Carmelo to guard during his era which was the 80s.. he probably would have sucked at defending players that tall who can dunk the lane or shoot from the outside Like cp3 at guard prolly better than baron davis I should have considered John Wall or James harden too at pg/sg or tony Parker
The guy from the past I'd like to see now is Pistol Pete, dude was shooting deep threes while they were still worth 2 points. And in college his scoring was out of control.
On July 01 2018 01:16 MassHysteria wrote: I see where you are going but it seems different in this case. That reported meniscus injury was already known and it was the same injury he has/had been dealing with, it just became public. The Lakers, by law, aren't allowed to release/disclose player's medical reports or w/e you wanna call it to the public during the summer (according to Ramona). And who would gain the most from this leaking amid possible trade rumors? Ball's camp is where the signs are pointing to with the timing of this.
the key line is "General manager Rob Pelinka said this week that Ball will be fully healthy for training camp."
so it'll be the kind of surgery where they cut away the damaged part and no "sewing and healing" is required. This also means his career is on the clock. No MRI is 100%.. the only way to know for sure is to go in and look directly. If they have to cut away a substantial part of his knee cartilage then he'll have a hard time playing past age 32 or 33. If he injures the cartilage on that knee again you can take a few more years off of that.
a lot of players in their late teens and early 20s opt to get the cartilage sewn up and repaired so it can fully heal 100% the way Derrick Rose did this with his 1st cartilage injury. I'm kind of surprised at Ball only being 20 they are not attempting this method. It is a longer healing time, however, it leads to 100% healing and a 100% in tact cartilage.
it wouldn't surprise me at all if Lonzo's dad is calling all the shots here.... which is really sad.
Worth noting is Ramona has changed her stance a little on the HIPAA compliance thing from that post. She was the original one who said that the Lakers were not saying anything b/c of HIPAA, but now she is publicly saying she doesn't know why they keep mentioning HIPAA when the only reason the team wouldn't be allowed to talk publicly about it is if Ball didn't give them permission to (a la kershaw in his contract).
I am personally glad they went to surgery now rather than later. Recovery time will probably be announced after surgery (dependent on repair vs removal) but at least he has some time right now (already lost enough practice time).
Jabari Parkers a good player smart of Bulls to try and sign him and zach lavine could build a good squad out of that. David Nwaba is a nice piece too. Ball will be a good person to pair with a hog type of player like James it will force ball movement out of their team offense.
Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
On July 11 2018 01:16 ZenithM wrote: I honestly can't see Lebron not making the playoffs. That would be so weird :D. Feelings aside, I think the Lakers can make it. If their young guys just develop even remotely as expected they're a decent team. They just have a huge hole at Center I guess.
been thinking/saying for a few days now that people sleeping on Lebron getting more minutes as small-ball 5 this season. The way the team has approached big men this free-agency is a hint I think.
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
I think this little dance going on between the Spurs and Raptors is just the Spurs intentionally leaking stuff about how sky high Leonard's value is. The Spurs picked Toronto because they realize ESPN and other major US media have almost zero "Raptors Insiders" to confirm or deny the Spurs' leaks.
Listening to major US media outlets yap about the Raptors is almost comedic its so bad. Stephen A's blab about Derozan going to LA was comedy gold. Who needs to watch Seinfeld reruns with that clown screaming into the camera?
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
Reddit's big issue is it is populism at its best and worst. You can't actually have discussion there because any sort of dissenting view is down voted to hell.
I "broke" the flames hiring their coach story on reddit, because my buddy knew. A few hours before it was announced. I got down voted like crazy for those hours, then once it was announced I message a few of the people who insulted me and they still were mad. It's an odd place.
On July 11 2018 01:16 ZenithM wrote: I honestly can't see Lebron not making the playoffs. That would be so weird :D. Feelings aside, I think the Lakers can make it. If their young guys just develop even remotely as expected they're a decent team. They just have a huge hole at Center I guess.
been thinking/saying for a few days now that people sleeping on Lebron getting more minutes as small-ball 5 this season. The way the team has approached big men this free-agency is a hint I think.
He is for sure big enough. Any time I see him beside a center I think, damn he is basically the same height but wider. It might also extend his career as is athleticism drops.
Centers have become smaller and more athletic. They may not have the same size advantage over Lebron that older centers used to have but they won't have as severe an athleticism disadvantage against old Lebron.
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
I was just confused with your wording because it sounded like you personally sought out that stat and posted it here.. which almost everyone here knew is already old news from r/nba... unless you are the same person who posted it there. It reminds me of a time when someone here also triumphantly announced something which everyone saw on r/nba for already a week. Just a funny sight, that's all.
Anyway, as a Spurs and DD fan, I love if he lands in SA. But as a DD fan, I think he personally wants to stay and win a ring for Toronto. But my real take away from all this is that Kawhi is either immature, or very poorly managed, or both.
A couple of days ago I posted heavy rumors based on a few tips from fellow media friends up north, the only issues then was Kawhi's medical and whether the kicker is its OG + 1 or Kyle. Pop and Buford seem intent on busting Kawhi's and his groups balls on this one forcing him to play somewhere he doesnt want to go. Toronto is too optimistic to take this.
And Melo to Rockets seems to be a go too... F#CK!!!
Spurs Would be really smart to let Kawhi-gate end and just let him walk and sign with some other nba team, wherever he can find a new deal if his current one is "irreparable-relationship" which is what espn keeps saying. If Spurs could flip Kawhi for Demar Derozan or some other new 3 that would be smart of them at this point. They haven't had a cohesive front office strategy since 2013 championship really and signing Pau Gasol was a awful plan. TD and Manu and Parker retired alrady/ gonna soon and where are they going after that? Corey Joseph? DD would look fresh as hell in silver and Black and Popovich isnt leaving San Ant so if its between KL and GP just let KL go away. Rebuild starts now
Well maybe, Quite a few people think Pop is done after this year and his team USA commitment. I don't think Kawhi is gonna sign but Pop won't be there long either.
One thing that is slightly off topic, but kinda relevant in light of the World Cup is all of the super-idiotic talking heads that think if only all the NBA point guards and NFL wide receivers played soccer at age 6 the USA would dominate soccer. This is stupid for several reasons.
1. Soccer is a far more skilled game than the NBA and NFL. Simply put, Hakeem never touched a basketball until 17 and is a top 15 player of all time. There is no top 10 NBA player that isn't a freak athlete and also several standard deviations about the normal height for men. That is mostly true for the NFL as well, almost a dozen current players didn't play until college, and most never play organized ball until high school. There is no such player in any of the major soccer leagues.
2. The US is already the most "talented" team out there, especially in CONCACAF (our qualifying group). If athleticism was even 50% of the sport we'd be #1 out of CONCACAF every time. The USMNT would crush Mexico at the NFL and NBA combines in the measurables.
3. The US woman's team is actually losing ground globally because of the terrible US Soccer culture which basically is all the worst parts of AAU combined with all the worst parts of US College sports. From age 6-18 coaches, for mystery reasons, think winning is more important than player development. So they will stick a "Lebron" type at 12 at striker and just feed him the ball on breakaways until the team is up 7-0. This makes no one better because his physical dominance will be caught up with(and its literally impossible to be as physically dominant in soccer as James is in basketball).
On July 18 2018 11:03 funnybananaman wrote: I support Melo going rockets... Cp3 Harden Melo could be championship worthy... best Houston team since the dream olajuwon.. lets go baby.
Fuck please dont man. Im only just starting to like Harden and his shenanigans, and, as a longtime Spurs fan, next season is a dead one, and as a Kobe fan first and foremost, I don't feel like cheering for the Lakers and Lebron at the same time, it feels wrong although I can cheer for Lebron individually.
Any obscure fun teams to bandwagon on next season? Go Suns, I guess :[
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
I was just confused with your wording because it sounded like you personally sought out that stat and posted it here.. which almost everyone here knew is already old news from r/nba... unless you are the same person who posted it there. It reminds me of a time when someone here also triumphantly announced something which everyone saw on r/nba for already a week. Just a funny sight, that's all. .
Well yeah, i'm the one that posted it to reddit after i sought out the stat when i was bored a few nights ago. Most of the stuff i post to r/nba i will post here too because while I'm sure most people here visit r/nba there may be a few that don't follow it as closely as you or I
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
Reddit's big issue is it is populism at its best and worst. You can't actually have discussion there because any sort of dissenting view is down voted to hell.
I "broke" the flames hiring their coach story on reddit, because my buddy knew. A few hours before it was announced. I got down voted like crazy for those hours, then once it was announced I message a few of the people who insulted me and they still were mad. It's an odd place.
Especially when you go to team subreddits you realize how delusional and void of reason most fans are about their hometeam
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
I was just confused with your wording because it sounded like you personally sought out that stat and posted it here.. which almost everyone here knew is already old news from r/nba... unless you are the same person who posted it there. It reminds me of a time when someone here also triumphantly announced something which everyone saw on r/nba for already a week. Just a funny sight, that's all. .
Well yeah, i'm the one that posted it to reddit after i sought out the stat when i was bored a few nights ago. Most of the stuff i post to r/nba i will post here too because while I'm sure most people here visit r/nba there may be a few that don't follow it as closely as you or I
Nice, good job. I really think that we barely scratched the surface with the 3-point phenomenon. Call me hard-headed, but I think with the accompanying increase in skills and positionless system, the 3 or layup system will be more dominant in the next 3-5 years, with Curry (distance and quick release off dribble) shots getting more and more common. Strategically I think it make sense as well, the counter would be having a team 90s Bull style or 00s Lakers with heavy interior scoring and midrange with different flavors, but, given the defensive aspect of both teams are equal, the 3-point heavy system wins by sheer math and spacing.
Also, I think many of us here go to r/nba for our nba stuff.
Also, JC, why does your icon change every other post?
To be honest, as a Spurs fan, Im happy that DD will inject a new life to the Spurs and will save the playoffs streak this season, and will also benefit from Pop, but DD is a stand up guy and a loyal Raptor so that stings a bit for him.
Raptors management met with Derozan during summer league and told him he would not be traded.
if the Raptors are serious about trying to win it all then 1 of VanVleet or Lowry has to go. You can't have 2 six foot tall guys in your playoff rotation. 1 .. ok.... not 2.
I get why TO is doing this but man it is harsh. DD has been super loyal to the Raps. We will see how the trade looks at the end of the day. But TO is not LA im not real excited on the chances of a resign.
On July 18 2018 21:15 JimmiC wrote: I get why TO is doing this but man it is harsh. DD has been super loyal to the Raps. We will see how the trade looks at the end of the day. But TO is not LA im not real excited on the chances of a resign.
I hated it at first, but my sources up north convinced me otherwise, it's a win-win for toronto. They get a massive buff this season, with the possibility (slim, but still) of resigning Kawhi, or, at least, they can break it up next season and start fresh with no drama.
The "loser" here is DD and all wide-eyed fans romanticizing about loyalty and heroes. On the bright side, I hope DD flourishes with Pop. He seems quite the guy too, down to earth, hard worker, no ego.
On July 17 2018 00:28 BlackJack wrote: Was bored last night and wasting time on bballreference and here's a stat I found that highlights how the game has changed: The NBA made more 3's last season than in the entire 1980s decade combined.
It was on r/nba for the last 2 days
I know, lol. I think about half of the posts I make on r/nba make it to their front page because I mostly post about 2 of their favorite things: obscure but interesting statistics and circle jerks for LeBron.
Reddit's big issue is it is populism at its best and worst. You can't actually have discussion there because any sort of dissenting view is down voted to hell.
I "broke" the flames hiring their coach story on reddit, because my buddy knew. A few hours before it was announced. I got down voted like crazy for those hours, then once it was announced I message a few of the people who insulted me and they still were mad. It's an odd place.
Especially when you go to team subreddits you realize how delusional and void of reason most fans are about their hometeam
You'll hate me for bringing this up, but true story about crazy fanaticism.
This was in 2014-15 in the early years of Lebron's homecoming. I was semi-regular at r/nba/cavs, and there was a major Lebron thread in r/nba and there was a specific thread with 3-5 people discussing something about a play or so, I dont remember anymore. It was aggressive but respectful, and then suddenly some 5 people I recognize from r/nba/cavs showed up and talking about "my team" and "we would do this or that" and would argue against everyone even though we all seem to be praising Lebron there. It was like they hate that there are other Lebron fans and that they should be the best ones, and that they see Lebron as an immaculate person and player who can do no wrong. I immediately noped my way out of any Lebron discussion from then on and became self conscious if other people see me as the same.
It sucks for Green too. He is one Pop's truest homeboys. I guess that's it, when the most family-culture team breaks up like this, loyalty and all other bullshit is gone. The only thing that could make this worse is if they send Manu away on his last year.
FUCK KAWHI!
DD's chance to win against Lebron in the playoffs!
well this is one way to lower Derozan's playing time
the 1st round pick is protected all the way to #20. so this is a decent deal for the Raptors. Lowry has been a bit of a headcase in the past. Long time coach is gone and best friend is gone. vit'll be interesting to see if he goes off the rails this year.
Poetl and Siakam were best Fortnite buddies. Lowry and Derozan were best friends. Lots of friendships being ignored in this deal.
Calling it now, fuck the haters, this will be DD's breakout year! I know he is an all-star already, but with Pop in the Spurs, his star will truly shine!
Hopefully, this trade doesn't make Derozan's battles with depression and anxiety more difficult. I wonder if these issues were a factor in Ujiri's decision to trade him?
Toronto teams trade away their heart and soul players like they are commodities on the stock exchange. wendel clark, Roy Halladay, Vernon Wells, vince carter, Damon Stoudamire
On July 18 2018 22:27 Twinkle Toes wrote: Calling it now, fuck the haters, this will be DD's breakout year! I know he is an all-star already, but with Pop in the Spurs, his star will truly shine!
DD MVP 2019!
Probably not this, but I do think him being in the west will up his profile.
Pascal Siakam ... Toronto's new play maker! Derozan shouldered a lot of the playmaking responsibilities in TO... it'll be geat to see Siakam get an opportunity to expand his game.
if Leonard is healthy this is a good deal for Toronto. it'll be interesting to see how Popovich deals with Derozan's low physical and mental effort on defense... and his mental meltdowns when close calls don't go his way.
On July 18 2018 21:46 Nemireck wrote: How do the Lakers look with Lowry and Kawhai filling out that starting 5?
Like title contenders. You think this is a precursor to a LA Tor trade?
No, not really. Just a thought experiment more than a prediction.
Raptors are ready for a retooling/rebuild, but they need cap space and picks. DD was eating up a ton of cap space on an inefficient contract, and Lowry has one or two more years at a pretty high cap hit as well.
We aren't moving Ibaka to make more cap space, so package Lowry and Kawhai off to LA for picks and a couple young players, maybe Ingram.
Vanvleet and Wright are serviceable PGs, give Valunciunas the million touches per game he's always wanted, and hopefully build his value to trade him at the deadline, if we're lucky we can even dump Powell along with him in a package. All while losing a ton of games to improve our draft position.
On July 18 2018 21:46 Nemireck wrote: How do the Lakers look with Lowry and Kawhai filling out that starting 5?
Like title contenders. You think this is a precursor to a LA Tor trade?
No, not really. Just a thought experiment more than a prediction.
Raptors are ready for a retooling/rebuild, but they need cap space and picks. DD was eating up a ton of cap space on an inefficient contract, and Lowry has one or two more years at a pretty high cap hit as well.
We aren't moving Ibaka to make more cap space, so package Lowry and Kawhai off to LA for picks and a couple young players, maybe Ingram.
Vanvleet and Wright are serviceable PGs, give Valunciunas the million touches per game he's always wanted, and hopefully build his value to trade him at the deadline, if we're lucky we can even dump Powell along with him in a package. All while losing a ton of games to improve our draft position.
A guy can dream, anyway.
I think it is a trade deadline option, but I also think the team as it is built can compete in the east. And PG13 was not going to even consider anywhere but LA until he did. So I guess we will see. If Kawhi is healthy and plays like he did he is a top 5 player in the league easily. And Lowry still has trade value despite his contract and age if we do decide to rebuild. You are 100% right on Ibaka, he is Masia's biggest regret!
On July 18 2018 21:46 Nemireck wrote: How do the Lakers look with Lowry and Kawhai filling out that starting 5?
Like title contenders. You think this is a precursor to a LA Tor trade?
No, not really. Just a thought experiment more than a prediction.
Raptors are ready for a retooling/rebuild, but they need cap space and picks. DD was eating up a ton of cap space on an inefficient contract, and Lowry has one or two more years at a pretty high cap hit as well.
We aren't moving Ibaka to make more cap space, so package Lowry and Kawhai off to LA for picks and a couple young players, maybe Ingram.
Vanvleet and Wright are serviceable PGs, give Valunciunas the million touches per game he's always wanted, and hopefully build his value to trade him at the deadline, if we're lucky we can even dump Powell along with him in a package. All while losing a ton of games to improve our draft position.
A guy can dream, anyway.
cap space to do what tho? i cant think of any great free agents that has signed with the raptors and kawhi wont be changing that trend either.
and the lakers wont want to take lowry, they already have ball and hart, younger and cheaper. i dont even think they have enough to make salaries match either
We will trade everything for RJ barrett, pick up Wiggins when Twolves listen to reddit and dump his contract. Then Pick up Tristan Thompson when he gets his Kardasian Divorce for the league minimum. Trade for Olynick and re aquire Cory Joesph. All as plan to have a cohesive unit and actually qualify for the Olympics.
On July 19 2018 00:06 JimmiC wrote: We will trade everything for RJ barrett, pick up Wiggins when Twolves listen to reddit and dump his contract. Then Pick up Tristan Thompson when he gets his Kardasian Divorce for the league minimum. Trade for Olynick and re aquire Cory Joesph. All as plan to have a cohesive unit and actually qualify for the Olympics.
On July 19 2018 00:06 JimmiC wrote: We will trade everything for RJ barrett, pick up Wiggins when Twolves listen to reddit and dump his contract. Then Pick up Tristan Thompson when he gets his Kardasian Divorce for the league minimum. Trade for Olynick and re aquire Cory Joesph. All as plan to have a cohesive unit and actually qualify for the Olympics.
bring anthony bennett back too
Only if he is available. Those first overall's can be tricky to get!
I predicted this during the NBA finals... or at least said it was somewhere i'd like if I were San Antonio! Unfortunately the thread is locked and I am not committed enough to find my post lol.
Interesting trade; I think it's about as good as SA was gonna get for Kawhi given the situation
On July 18 2018 21:46 Nemireck wrote: How do the Lakers look with Lowry and Kawhai filling out that starting 5?
Like title contenders. You think this is a precursor to a LA Tor trade?
No, not really. Just a thought experiment more than a prediction.
Raptors are ready for a retooling/rebuild, but they need cap space and picks. DD was eating up a ton of cap space on an inefficient contract, and Lowry has one or two more years at a pretty high cap hit as well.
We aren't moving Ibaka to make more cap space, so package Lowry and Kawhai off to LA for picks and a couple young players, maybe Ingram.
Vanvleet and Wright are serviceable PGs, give Valunciunas the million touches per game he's always wanted, and hopefully build his value to trade him at the deadline, if we're lucky we can even dump Powell along with him in a package. All while losing a ton of games to improve our draft position.
A guy can dream, anyway.
cap space to do what tho? i cant think of any great free agents that has signed with the raptors and kawhi wont be changing that trend either.
and the lakers wont want to take lowry, they already have ball and hart, younger and cheaper. i dont even think they have enough to make salaries match either
Cap space to take on expensive, expiring contracts from other teams of old, washed up nobodies (packaged with picks) to help us tank and draft the next LeBron... Duh.
It's the NBA, if you can't buy your superstars, you gotta draft em!
20 minutes of talking about the Leonard//Derozan trade on the all sports radio station and then its back to talking about whether Tavares or Matthews is the #1 center. LOL.
Derozan Leonard Deal makes ton of sense, Leonard needed to get out of TX and Derozan needed a shakeup w/ his situation too. Like both of these players but they weren't helping their teams go anywhere. WTF @ people saying Demar needs to get a statue outside of TO air canada center. That kind of talk isn't really backed up by much winning. These dudes will do good in each others positions with other management and teammates.
On July 19 2018 01:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote: 20 minutes of talking about the Leonard//Derozan trade on the all sports radio station and then its back to talking about whether Tavares or Matthews is the #1 center. LOL.
I don't think either of them are tall enough TBH. And I kinda like JV there already...
On July 18 2018 23:06 JimmiC wrote: You are 100% right on Ibaka, he is Masia's biggest regret!
Dude fell in love with the player Serge used to be and couldn't remove the blinders that were causing him to ignore Ibaka's obvious shortcomings during that playoff run.
I was extremely disappointed to see him get that contract because I thought it was pretty obvious that Ibaka was aging quickly and on an accelerating downturn.
Too bad really. You'd figure at 28 we were finally getting the starting PF we've needed forever.
On July 18 2018 23:06 JimmiC wrote: You are 100% right on Ibaka, he is Masia's biggest regret!
Dude fell in love with the player Serge used to be and couldn't remove the blinders that were causing him to ignore Ibaka's obvious shortcomings during that playoff run.
I was extremely disappointed to see him get that contract because I thought it was pretty obvious that Ibaka was aging quickly and on an accelerating downturn.
Too bad really. You'd figure at 28 we were finally getting the starting PF we've needed forever.
Yeah the fall off really started back in OKC but people didn't notice as much. IT is the reason to be worried about Deandre and Capela. Big dudes with Athleticism minor injuries can sap it fast cause they weigh so much.
Seriously though, for like the 5th time. It is racist and stupid to say you don't know Ibaka's age.
Ibaka's game had serious shortcomings even during his OKC tenure. If Westbrook/Durant passes him the ball, you want him to shoot it immediately. If he doesn't shoot immediately, he doesn't know what to do with the ball other than passing it back after holding it too long. That resets the entire offensive sequence.
Unless Green is a salary dump, it seems the Raptors are trading DeRozan for Kawhi almost straight up. The draft pick is heavily protected and become second round picks afterwards. It's really only useful if Kawhi isn't healthy and the Raps suck next year.
On July 19 2018 04:50 andrewlt wrote: Ibaka's game had serious shortcomings even during his OKC tenure. If Westbrook/Durant passes him the ball, you want him to shoot it immediately. If he doesn't shoot immediately, he doesn't know what to do with the ball other than passing it back after holding it too long. That resets the entire offensive sequence.
Unless Green is a salary dump, it seems the Raptors are trading DeRozan for Kawhi almost straight up. The draft pick is heavily protected and become second round picks afterwards. It's really only useful if Kawhi isn't healthy and the Raps suck next year.
Even then its not. because if its better then 19 its the Raps. So they will get a at best 20th pick but like u said more likey some 2;s.. Green is a solid 3 and D guy our Wings just went from terrible on the d end to excellent. and no offenseive drop off.
Derozan is an overrated scorer and not really a defender. San antionio needs someone to score though and Raps can put in vanfleet and Ibaka to cover up on their defensive side now. Kind of move might be what SA has needed for years i see with them KL clogging up the 3 rotation when u already got Rudy fing Gay and Danny Green and now DDroz? Like how many 3s can u actually play on 1 team. And Lamarcus A and Pau at the 4/5 and u really got a good squad. Bryn Forbes and GInobili at 1-2 or just play Demar at the 2 or Danny green.
On July 19 2018 04:50 andrewlt wrote: Ibaka's game had serious shortcomings even during his OKC tenure. If Westbrook/Durant passes him the ball, you want him to shoot it immediately. If he doesn't shoot immediately, he doesn't know what to do with the ball other than passing it back after holding it too long. That resets the entire offensive sequence.
Unless Green is a salary dump, it seems the Raptors are trading DeRozan for Kawhi almost straight up. The draft pick is heavily protected and become second round picks afterwards. It's really only useful if Kawhi isn't healthy and the Raps suck next year.
Even then its not. because if its better then 19 its the Raps. So they will get a at best 20th pick but like u said more likey some 2;s.. Green is a solid 3 and D guy our Wings just went from terrible on the d end to excellent. and no offenseive drop off.
If Green isn't a salary dump, he is a solid player in the rotation. So the Spurs added Green to the trade while the Raptors added Poeltl and a heavily protected pick. That is pretty even, which is why I said it is an almost straight up trade between DeRozan and Kawhi in terms of value.
Since the pick is top-20 protected, the Raptors owe the Spurs a pick if they finish with one of the ten best records in the NBA, which is unlikely if Kawhi isn't healthy. Otherwise, it becomes second rounders.
On July 19 2018 04:50 andrewlt wrote: Ibaka's game had serious shortcomings even during his OKC tenure. If Westbrook/Durant passes him the ball, you want him to shoot it immediately. If he doesn't shoot immediately, he doesn't know what to do with the ball other than passing it back after holding it too long. That resets the entire offensive sequence.
i got a laugh out of Kobe's "Detail" series outlining how Derozan was making less than optimal decisions with the ball because he was not relying on Ibaka more to be a play-maker and decision-maker.
the Raptors "ball movement" revolution worked pretty well during the regular season. Come playoff time it was turnover city for the 2018 Raptors. ISO Ball does have its benefits when you have guys like Luis Scola, Bizmack Biyombo, and Serge Ibaka as starters.
I love this trade, and while DeRozan has been one of my favorite players since I got into the nba a couple years ago, it had to be done. You don't just let Kawhi slip your fingers. Plus, Danny Green lets up run a lot of incredibly nice lineups.
Small-ball 5 - Lowry/Green/Kawhi/OG/Siakam. (1-5 switchability, everyone can hit 3s other than Siakam, two good playmakers and a third okay one in Kawhi.) Medium-ball 5 - Lowry/Green/Kawhi/OG/Ibaka. (1-5 swithchability, everyone can hit 3s, playmaking is worse but Ibaka can protect the rim.) Huge Ball - Lowry/Kawhi/OG/Siakam/JV. (1-4 switchability plus JV to crush mismatches, Kawhi at the 2 is a walking mismatch, OG and Siakam can be surprisingly great too.)
Plus we preserve the bench mob quite well. I wonder who we'll get as a backup center. Boucher would be fun. FVV/Delon/CJ/Siakam or Ibaka/Boucher is a nasty bench.
Delon Wright is a better player than Green; For the positionless era of basketball i take Wright over Green in the shooting guard position every day.
If Green's minutes stay around 25 it'll be interesting to see who gets those extra 10 minutes. I think those minutes will be spread between Wright/FVV/Powell.
its been 3 years since Green has shot over 40%. he is a good defender. Green will have to compete successfully to get minutes. If his shooting % continues its decline he'll lose some of his 25 minutes to Wright & Powell. At 31 years old and in the final year of his contract Green's career is at a crossroads.
i'd make Green the starter in order to keep the bench mob together. I think Wright and FVV work very well together.
Yeah I don't think Deronzan ever wanted to leave. So unless the Raps wanted to press reset (which it looks like they did) I think they could have had him for the long haul.
But I think there is no question that they are much better this year. Long term, I guess we will see. Kawhi is apparently "warming" up to T.O.
On July 19 2018 21:53 JimmiC wrote: Yeah I don't think Deronzan ever wanted to leave. So unless the Raps wanted to press reset (which it looks like they did) I think they could have had him for the long haul.
But I think there is no question that they are much better this year. Long term, I guess we will see. Kawhi is apparently "warming" up to T.O.
That's just PR speak for "I still hate this but I'll be a professional."
Which is weirdly reassuring, actually. My concern has been that he pulls an Alonzo on us and we end up trading DeRozan and Poetl for Danny Green.
I doubt Kawhi resigns with TOR and honestly I doubt TOR has any more success next season than they did last season. They had the best record in the East and a 2nd round exit, I don't think they do much better than that and if I they do get further in the playoffs I think it will have just as much to do with LeBron leaving their conference as it does with Kawhi joining their team.
I guess winning a championship is everything and I don't think DD was going to ever bring a championship to TOR so in that respect this move makes sense. I wonder if teams/fans would rather have say 4 years of your team being solid, doing well in the regular season and ok in the playoffs but never winning a championship before having to rebuild or if they would rather their team just immediately go into rebuild and suck ass and hope to draft players that can win them a championship which may never happen anyway.
On July 19 2018 21:53 JimmiC wrote: Yeah I don't think Deronzan ever wanted to leave. So unless the Raps wanted to press reset (which it looks like they did) I think they could have had him for the long haul.
But I think there is no question that they are much better this year. Long term, I guess we will see. Kawhi is apparently "warming" up to T.O.
That's just PR speak for "I still hate this but I'll be a professional."
Which is weirdly reassuring, actually. My concern has been that he pulls an Alonzo on us and we end up trading DeRozan and Poetl for Danny Green.
Likely yes, and I'm not worried about him not being at his best. HE can't play only 6 games over 2 years and get he massive contract he wants. I think he is going to bring it.
And I think the Raps will win the east! I'm currently buying the hype.
On July 19 2018 22:16 BlackJack wrote: I doubt Kawhi resigns with TOR and honestly I doubt TOR has any more success next season than they did last season. They had the best record in the East and a 2nd round exit, I don't think they do much better than that and if I they do get further in the playoffs I think it will have just as much to do with LeBron leaving their conference as it does with Kawhi joining their team.
I guess winning a championship is everything and I don't think DD was going to ever bring a championship to TOR so in that respect this move makes sense. I wonder if teams/fans would rather have say 4 years of your team being solid, doing well in the regular season and ok in the playoffs but never winning a championship before having to rebuild or if they would rather their team just immediately go into rebuild and suck ass and hope to draft players that can win them a championship which may never happen anyway.
I think if Kawhi is healthy and playing as well as he can, the Raptors are noticeably better.
He provides the same scoring as DeRozan, but more efficient because he can shoot the 3 at 40%+ and brings NBA-best defense as well.
In a superstar-driven league, we traded a top-30 talent for top-5 talent. That makes a huge difference.
i guess an open question is.. how bad was Derozan's bad defense.
On July 19 2018 23:43 Nemireck wrote: He provides the same scoring as DeRozan, but more efficient because he can shoot the 3 at 40%+ and brings NBA-best defense as well.
Leonard is better than Derozan in every aspect of the game except playmaking. Derozan is a decent point guard and Leonard is not. That said, the Raptors have Delon, Freddie, and Pascal screaming for more time as playmakers. Derozan's playmaking role will be gobbled up by those guys.
i think FVV will emerge as the best playmaker and surpass Lowry in about a year ... maybe 2. Lowry has been effusive in his praise of Freddy.
The Raptors are going to have a nasty defense this year.
EDIT: Derozan is slightly better creating his own shot when he has the ball deep into the interior of the defense.
On July 19 2018 23:43 Nemireck wrote: He provides the same scoring as DeRozan, but more efficient because he can shoot the 3 at 40%+ and brings NBA-best defense as well.
Leonard is better than Derozan in every aspect of the game except playmaking. Derozan is a decent point guard and Leonard is not. That said, the Raptors have Delon, Freddie, and Pascal screaming for more time as playmakers. Derozan's playmaking role will be gobbled up by those guys.
i think FVV will emerge as the best playmaker and surpass Lowry in about a year ... maybe 2. Lowry has been effusive in his praise of Freddy.
The Raptors are going to have a nasty defense this year.
EDIT: Derozan is slightly better creating his own shot when he has the ball deep into the interior of the defense.
US Media "analysts" continue to say Demar Derozan has been the best player on the Raptors the last few years. This is incorrect. Kyle Lowry is the best player on the Raptors and has been for years.
On July 20 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i guess an open question is.. how bad was Derozan's bad defense.
On July 19 2018 23:43 Nemireck wrote: He provides the same scoring as DeRozan, but more efficient because he can shoot the 3 at 40%+ and brings NBA-best defense as well.
Leonard is better than Derozan in every aspect of the game except playmaking. Derozan is a decent point guard and Leonard is not. That said, the Raptors have Delon, Freddie, and Pascal screaming for more time as playmakers. Derozan's playmaking role will be gobbled up by those guys.
i think FVV will emerge as the best playmaker and surpass Lowry in about a year ... maybe 2. Lowry has been effusive in his praise of Freddy.
The Raptors are going to have a nasty defense this year.
EDIT: Derozan is slightly better creating his own shot when he has the ball deep into the interior of the defense.
On July 19 2018 21:48 BlackJack wrote:
On July 19 2018 02:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: basically... Toronto is trading 2 years of Derozan at $27+M for 1 year of Leonard.
This statement doesn't at all factor into how likely each player is to re-sign. It could be 6 years of DD for 1 year of Kawhi
true
do you want Derozan this year and the next 2 years at his price tag though? as you've stated the chance of winning a title with DD is close to zero.
its actually mike conley's contract that should be #1
was it a certainty Conley would get that deal? i thought this July 2016 post was about the "sure-fire, 100%-for-certain" giant money signings if it was a surprise i guess a guy getting a surprise max deal has the potential to be much worse though.
On July 20 2018 03:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: US Media "analysts" continue to say Demar Derozan has been the best player on the Raptors the last few years. This is incorrect. Kyle Lowry is the best player on the Raptors and has been for years.
On July 20 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i guess an open question is.. how bad was Derozan's bad defense.
On July 19 2018 23:43 Nemireck wrote: He provides the same scoring as DeRozan, but more efficient because he can shoot the 3 at 40%+ and brings NBA-best defense as well.
Leonard is better than Derozan in every aspect of the game except playmaking. Derozan is a decent point guard and Leonard is not. That said, the Raptors have Delon, Freddie, and Pascal screaming for more time as playmakers. Derozan's playmaking role will be gobbled up by those guys.
i think FVV will emerge as the best playmaker and surpass Lowry in about a year ... maybe 2. Lowry has been effusive in his praise of Freddy.
The Raptors are going to have a nasty defense this year.
EDIT: Derozan is slightly better creating his own shot when he has the ball deep into the interior of the defense.
On July 19 2018 21:48 BlackJack wrote:
On July 19 2018 02:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote: basically... Toronto is trading 2 years of Derozan at $27+M for 1 year of Leonard.
This statement doesn't at all factor into how likely each player is to re-sign. It could be 6 years of DD for 1 year of Kawhi
true
do you want Derozan this year and the next 2 years at his price tag though? as you've stated the chance of winning a title with DD is close to zero.
its actually mike conley's contract that should be #1
was it a certainty Conley would get that deal? i thought this July 2016 post was about the "sure-fire, 100%-for-certain" giant money signings if it was a surprise i guess a guy getting a surprise max deal has the potential to be much worse though.
not sure if it was 100%, cant remember 2 years ago, but grizz couldnt lose him and he was the best free agent PG that year i think. i think someone would've given him a max if memphis didnt.
Ujiri did a press conference today and is apologizing to Derozan. He is normally a very smooth, polished public speaker. He looked emotional and shaken today. He has this twitching right arm thing going that looks bad.
Lowry hasn't said 1 word publicly yet. That is not a good sign. It really looks like Ujiri lied to Derozan.
Michael Grange corroborated this report. Grange has a lot of credibility. So I'd say its probably true. Namely, Derozan feels the Raptors lied to him.
On July 19 2018 02:27 Nemireck wrote: Too bad really. You'd figure at 28 we were finally getting the starting PF we've needed forever.
the Raptors are actually 23. i have no idea how old Serge is.
Ibaka is 28 you wise-ass.
Woj and Zach Lowe have been around a long time and have a lot of credibility. based on that , i don't think they are engaging in idle gossip. Their credibility and what they've discussed makes me wonder how old Serge Ibaka is. Lots of athletes have been caught lying about their age. Other athletes are better liars and never get caught.
Demar Derozan agrees with me. He doesn't know how old Serge is. "We don’t know how old Serge really is. So sometimes he look like he’s 28, sometimes he looks like he 38. He’s been looking 28 lately"
It has been done to the dirt and Ibaka himself finds it to be stereotypical, prejudicial and insulting. He doesn't think it is funny. This is at least your 5th post about it. We get you think it's funny, and think it's real because you love conspiracy but please stop posting your shit with 0 proof like it is fact.
And demar does not agree with you. He was busting a buddies balls. Have you not watched any of the videos with him and Kyle and so on? Clearly he was joking.
Big men fall off really quick. Howard was 27 when he had his Lakers season. Alonzo Mourning was done at 30. Noah went from 13/11/5 DPOY to 7/10/5 and not even being an all-star.
Anyway, Ujiri himself explains it as changing circumstances, which I believe whole-heartedly. Stuff moves fast in the NBA. I figure they led DeRozan on because they didn't think they could land Kawhi, and then that changed. It's how it goes.
On July 21 2018 01:41 Soularion wrote: Big men fall off really quick. Howard was 27 when he had his Lakers season. Alonzo Mourning was done at 30. Noah went from 13/11/5 DPOY to 7/10/5 and not even being an all-star.
Anyway, Ujiri himself explains it as changing circumstances, which I believe whole-heartedly. Stuff moves fast in the NBA. I figure they led DeRozan on because they didn't think they could land Kawhi, and then that changed. It's how it goes.
Exactly big guys put so much strain on their feet, joints and back it does not take big things to really impact them.
It would be pretty cool (but highly unlikely) If DD opts out and then resigned with T.O.
On July 21 2018 01:41 Soularion wrote: Big men fall off really quick. Howard was 27 when he had his Lakers season. Alonzo Mourning was done at 30. Noah went from 13/11/5 DPOY to 7/10/5 and not even being an all-star.
Anyway, Ujiri himself explains it as changing circumstances, which I believe whole-heartedly. Stuff moves fast in the NBA. I figure they led DeRozan on because they didn't think they could land Kawhi, and then that changed. It's how it goes.
Ehh. Isn't it just that some NBA players fall off really quick? Kareem played forever, Duncan was still a top 3 big man when he retired, KG tailed off nicely, etc. Lots of guys fall off cliffs, like Melo, and its basically a point guard trope Isaih Thomas (both).
On July 21 2018 01:41 Soularion wrote: Big men fall off really quick. Howard was 27 when he had his Lakers season. Alonzo Mourning was done at 30. Noah went from 13/11/5 DPOY to 7/10/5 and not even being an all-star.
Anyway, Ujiri himself explains it as changing circumstances, which I believe whole-heartedly. Stuff moves fast in the NBA. I figure they led DeRozan on because they didn't think they could land Kawhi, and then that changed. It's how it goes.
Ehh. Isn't it just that some NBA players fall off really quick? Kareem played forever, Duncan was still a top 3 big man when he retired, KG tailed off nicely, etc. Lots of guys fall off cliffs, like Melo, and its basically a point guard trope Isaih Thomas (both).
Probably right. I think it depends. Guys that have "post moves" They can play forever because they still have their height. But guys who use mostly their athleticism fall off. Like Mutumbo is the only guy I can think of that didn't have post moves who lasted.
This is why some are concerned about Capela and DJ.
But I mean you are right most everyone but hall of famers fall off ! And then there is LeBron who gets better like a fine wine! (or some sweet hgh)
who knows how much Derozan was joking or not joking. could be a triple entendre for all we know. a joke with the truth right in it. I don't ignore Zach Lowe and Woj and Ibaka trying to turn this into some other issue makes him look silly. Also, i don't think Serge reads this thread so i'm sure he won't be offended.
Ibaka could just be Toronto's version of Ryan Braun for all we know. who knows. There is enough evidence out there and enough monetary motive to have questions though.
On July 21 2018 01:41 Soularion wrote: Big men fall off really quick. Howard was 27 when he had his Lakers season. Alonzo Mourning was done at 30. Noah went from 13/11/5 DPOY to 7/10/5 and not even being an all-star.
Anyway, Ujiri himself explains it as changing circumstances, which I believe whole-heartedly. Stuff moves fast in the NBA. I figure they led DeRozan on because they didn't think they could land Kawhi, and then that changed. It's how it goes.
could be. that is definitely what Ujiri is trying to sell during this press conference. However, his body language is anything but confident. He refused to answer the direct question as to whether or not he promised Derozan he was not trading him.
Have you ever seen Ujiri look this shaken in the past? i never have.
Let's see what Derozan says in the future. If Derozan comes off 100% honest , sincere and confident and claims Ujiri stated specifically he was not being traded i'm inclined to believe Derozan. If Derozan backs off and says he was not specifically given those exact words then who knows...
Hopefully, the players think Ujiri is, generally overall, an honest guy...look at what happened to Colangelo.
Adam silver and David stern have turned a once entertaiing league into a disaster with all these extra rules. Its a shame they were able to weasel their way to the top of the NBA managment snake.
On July 21 2018 03:27 funnybananaman wrote: Adam silver and David stern have turned a once entertaiing league into a disaster with all these extra rules. Its a shame they were able to weasel their way to the top of the NBA managment snake.
I do agree that Silver is pretty incompetent, but what is wrong with Stern?
Well pre 2004 i thought he was the best commissioner but the 2005 cba lowered my opinion of him. A lot of things in that weren't healthy for the league and have led to the stagnant/noncompetitive/weird shit going on in the nba right now. Like players teaming up, teams with championship rosters under performing (spurs, celtics), e.t.c. and just general apathy for the sport that you see even in playoffs. james harden , others come to mind. So the league is doing decently but its not just a "game" its peoples workplace and work environment and they should have better standards. Supersonics being (forcibly?) sold , nj-nets-brooklyn-nets posslby being (forcibly sold), clippers (forcibly sold), 2011 lockout, byzantine draft-eligibility rule changes, all that hurts the nbas image across the usa, and decreases quality of accessibility for new players trying to have a fair carreer in the league. so Stern oversaw alot of that, silver i cant blame as much because he's sort of the assistant man and actually was vp of nba entertainment before being in any way involved with the commish. So the nba did amazingly from 1984-2004 and 2004-present has been a big of a asterisk.some good things happened in this time but all the negative publicty around high school basketball and the nba has been a dark are for the nba imo. Stern could have illuminated the path for us all more transparently.
I don't want to attribute this to a larger pattern, but there is a trend lately of these media outlets deciding that if they can't control the conversation, they'll just shut it down entirely.
I'm not hating on him, I'd play till they made me leave. It is just that usually people try to chase the ring not play for worst overall in their last season.
Michael Grange and Kyle Lowry go back and forth on a contentious issue in such a polite way i'm starting to think Lowry has transitioned into a Canadian.
I don't get why a guy like Fredette can't have some success in the NBA. He certainly doesn't look like a Adam Morrison. Was the expectation too high? Was the allure of Chinabucks too strong?
On July 30 2018 14:40 Jerubaal wrote: Fair enough. I guess the guys at the end of the bench are athletic but not skilled/smart?
I think he has to accept a roll as not the guy, but just the sniper. Its also probably a lot more fun to be a superstar in china then a 10th man in the NBA.
Fredette could have been a backup PG in the NBA with a 12-17 year carreer and probably made $100million but he honestly didn't look ready to put in the work to become better/ great (think steve nash level absolute peak) and in the few times i saw him with a nba team he looked bored/disinterested/ half asleep on the bench. I saw a couple games where he made some shots with the bulls in like 10min of court time but he needed to develop better ball handling skills, work on his strength, and defense/ team leadership. Its one thing to look like a god playing against Gonzaga, just cause you can shoot a long range 3, but the defense and the, idk the term, but if you're a NBA pg you've got to be able to dribble the length of the court and set up your teams offense, pick n roll, post up, when theres dwayne wade as the other guard trying to stop you. Not saying that takes height, strength, or hand control, more then what ferdette naturally has genetically, but there's a sort of headiness to good nba PGs, whether starting or bench. Think Trenton Hasssell, Sam Cassell, Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo, etc. Ferdette needed to be playing his absolute best basketball of his life in the NBA night in-out. He clearly could shoot NBA distance 3 accurately, like at BYU, but he needs headiness and mesh with the type of men that make up a NBA team. aka alpha dog type dues. So he fits in better in china where the mental pressure aren't as high, the defense is alot worse, the coach pressure is less high, and he isn't a size/endurance/brain disadvantage compared to the competition at guard. I think he could return to the NBA if he really, really wanted to. A lot of mediocre/ good college players have found work in China as pro ballers though so like, if ferdette could do it any white guy who'se good at ncaa level ball could do it too.
its amazing how in a really soft basketball town where the team owns the media covering them Bryan Colangelo's very minor BS-ing never amounted to any kind of controversy ever. then in Philly.. a much tougher basketball town with independent media.... BeeCo got every word of every sentence analyzed and over analyzed.
the CEO of MGM said “We’re literally going to be in every state in the U.S. that will approve sports betting,” When the Raptors were born the Ontario government had to take NBA games off of its provincial sports betting "Pro Line".
Never understood the nba's previous opposition to this why make illegal wagers on sports, even basketball, a major sport, in a capitalist economy/free nation? why do that? this isn't groundbreaking for the nba but philosophically it's a step toward a more free economy which can improve things for basketball.
Zion Williamson who is a recruit for duke #2 rated in the country just had his measurements today. He's 6'7 285 at age 18. He weighs more than Lebron and 5 pounds less than Boban.
well it shows that whatever rift existed between management and Leonard that Leonard is willing to gracefully put that behind him. It stands in stark contrast to the departing message of Roberto Osuna upon being traded away by the Toronto Blue Jays.
On August 10 2018 23:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: well it shows that whatever rift existed between management and Leonard that Leonard is willing to gracefully put that behind him. It stands in stark contrast to the departing message of Roberto Osuna upon being traded away by the Toronto Blue Jays.
How hard did you smash your /s key when writing that?
On August 10 2018 23:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: well it shows that whatever rift existed between management and Leonard that Leonard is willing to gracefully put that behind him. It stands in stark contrast to the departing message of Roberto Osuna upon being traded away by the Toronto Blue Jays.
How hard did you smash your /s key when writing that?
It doesn't show crap, other than that he, or his PR person, had enough sense to know that they weren't going to win any fans bitching. Wouldn't be surprised if some management type had to go tell him to do that. It's been weeks since the trade.
How bad is Derozan's defense? His ESPN Real plus minus is -1.76. A few starting shooting guards are worse. DD ranks ~25th amongst starting shooting guards on defense according to this metric.
Derozan's DRtg ON/OFFs are very bad. However, his replacements are average or better defenders so his very bad ON/OFFs probably over estimate how bad he is. The ON/OFF ORtg of his opponents' is 108.2//102.2. So his presence on defense is a -6. The past 4 regular seasons his defense ON/OFFs hover around -5.8.
Ok, so Derozan is a bad defender. Well, it turns out he is also bad as an offensive player in the playoffs. In fact, he is a bigger detriment to the Raptors on offense than on defense during the playoffs.
Derozan's defensive AND offensive #s are bad in the playoffs. Last year, ORtg ON/OFF is 109/123.8 DRtg ON/OFF is 117.8/114.6
in 2017 Playoffs, ORtg ON/OFF is 102.5/112.1. DRts ON/OFF is 111.4/107.8
I was unaware Derozan had such a negative impact on the Raptors offense during the playoffs.
Any how, the Raptors getting rid of Derozan is addition by subtraction. A long time ago I wanted his minutes cut. Welp, I got my wish.. Derozan will be playing 0 minutes for the Raptors next season.
On August 19 2018 01:07 Nemireck wrote: I mean, I don't think it's ever been a secret that he's an overrated mid-range chucker.
But, he was OUR overrated mid-range chucker :'(
Id say he is under rated based on where he ends up on the top 100 lists each year.
I think he ends up about right where he belongs. Somewhere in the top 40ish range.
According to ESPN's Real Plus Minus or RAPM: Derozan is the 7th best starting shooting guard. This result is congruent with Derozan being somewhere between a top35 at best and a top45 at worst.
This year the top 10 Defensive Real Plus Minus guys according to ESPN's Real Plus Minus were either on the NBA All Defensive First Team or the All NBA Defensive Second Team.
The author, jeremias engelmann, has been refining the metric since its introduction and i'd say its more accurate than it was five years ago. If DRPM continues to correctly nail the top 10 defensive NBA players in future years i think it'll get more attention. I think its a good metric for identifying the best and worst defensive players. It is not very good at distinguishing an average defender from an above average defender. I think creating a metric that can measure defensive contributions to a fine degree of granularity is impossible.
On August 19 2018 01:07 Nemireck wrote: I mean, I don't think it's ever been a secret that he's an overrated mid-range chucker.
But, he was OUR overrated mid-range chucker :'(
Id say he is under rated based on where he ends up on the top 100 lists each year.
I think he ends up about right where he belongs. Somewhere in the top 40ish range.
According to ESPN's Real Plus Minus or RAPM: Derozan is the 7th best starting shooting guard. This result is congruent with Derozan being somewhere between a top35 at best and a top45 at worst.
This year the top 10 Defensive Real Plus Minus guys according to ESPN's Real Plus Minus were either on the NBA All Defensive First Team or the All NBA Defensive Second Team.
The author, jeremias engelmann, has been refining the metric since its introduction and i'd say its more accurate than it was five years ago. If DRPM continues to correctly nail the top 10 defensive NBA players in future years i think it'll get more attention. I think its a good metric for identifying the best and worst defensive players. It is not very good at distinguishing an average defender from an above average defender. I think creating a metric that can measure defensive contributions to a fine degree of granularity is impossible.
According to your metric, it doesn't look like I need the metric to metrically derive DeRozan's metrical placement on the overall metric rating of all the metrics involved in deciding where he belongs on the metric.
speaking of bald guys i wonder why sportsnet doesn't use the best basketball commentator canada has ever produced on their raptors broadcasts. maybe its in his ESPN deal that he can't cover basketball on sportsnet?
On August 31 2018 22:45 ZenithM wrote: No Kobe in that squad? I understand he's seen as Discount Jordan here (especially the stat guys), but that makes him an alright player .
By the time he was bald enough to join our squad he was not good enough!
JimmyJ will be sure to point that out to us if that's the case, like he did when Satoransky started last year for the Wiz. Turns out though, you probably want to give some playing time to John Wall.
to clarify, i pointed out that all the "data massaging" redditors were doing comparing Wall v. Sato occurred while Wall had an injured knee. He had 3 knee procedures in 9 months. was the guy ever pain free?
2017/18 data indicated that a john wall with a bad knee is worse than a healthy Satoransky. previous year's data indicates a healthy wall is better than Satoransky. The difference is a lot smaller than i thought going into the 2017 season. Until last year i had no idea Satoransky could be a decent starting point guard.
Its pretty tough to tell how smart a player is until you dump him into the deep end of the pool. Satoransky was a pleasant surprise for Washington last year.
Same thing happened with VanVleet. No one knew how smart a player he was until he was given the responsibility of running the team. Going into last year FVV was 3rd string behind Lowry and Wright at PG and on a crappy 1 year deal starring at more time in the G-League.
Maybe it would be interesting to think abotu what RAMP hero backup PG will fair the best going forward.
From last year you had Satorsky, Tyus Jones, VanVleet and Dinwiddie. Who do you think will be the best next year, and long term who do you think would be the best. Also, where do you think they will end up with their careers.
I'll go with VanVleet as best next year, and topping out at quality starter. I think the others will all be quality back ups, with Jones having the least upside.
I think what happens is that teams don't gameplan for Satoransky, but they do gameplan for Wall. I wouldn't give too much credence to any numbers a backup guy gets when he's promoted to a starting role in a limited number of games. It's at least nice that they can contribute with such an extended role though, and it can shed some light on some flaws in how the team operates with the missing superstar on the floor, sure.
I also read things like "who needs Kyrie when you have Rozier?".
On September 17 2018 22:52 ZenithM wrote: I think what happens is that teams don't gameplan for Satoransky, but they do gameplan for Wall. I wouldn't give too much credence to any numbers a backup guy gets when he's promoted to a starting role in a limited number of games. It's at least nice that they can contribute with such an extended role though, and it can shed some light on some flaws in how the team operates with the missing superstar on the floor, sure.
Agreed, the fun in advanced stats is that people want to find diamonds in the rough and be ahead of the curve so they can say "I told you he was great". But basketball is such a fluid sport it the hardest to pin down. And you end up with people trying make conclusions with not enough information. Once in a while it works out but more often than not they were just in a good situation or unscouted as you mention. This can also underrate some great players because of how the stats are calculated. It almost hurts you to play tons of minutes, but tons of minutes means your coach trusts you.
On September 17 2018 22:52 ZenithM wrote: I think what happens is that teams don't gameplan for Satoransky, but they do gameplan for Wall. I wouldn't give too much credence to any numbers a backup guy gets when he's promoted to a starting role in a limited number of games. It's at least nice that they can contribute with such an extended role though, and it can shed some light on some flaws in how the team operates with the missing superstar on the floor, sure.
I also read things like "who needs Kyrie when you have Rozier?".
rule #1 with these stats... as i've said several times ... also applies to baseball.
you don't compare starters with relief pitchers just like you don't compare 38 minute-a-game guys with 18 minute-a-game guys. How many relievers had a lower ERA than Nolan Ryan, Roy Halladay or Clayton Kershaw? Dozens of relievers had a lower ERA. Does that make them better than these 3 guys? nah. Same thing applies in basketball.
Getting back to what started all this and Westbrook being hurt. Advanced stats indicate Westbrook is a superstar level offensive player and an above average defender. OKC will be a worse team without him. Schroder just ain't good enough. You'd probably only need to watch 50 minutes of both guys playing to see Westbrook >> Schroder because the difference between these two players is very big.
Wade is coming back for a farewell tour. I guess that is good news. I've always liked him as a player and he seems to be able to still contribute. I'm not sure that the Heat will be a big factor but in the east who knows. I think it will be BOS, Tor, Phi and everyone else.
It was a bad fit in Min, Butler is a hell of a player but seems to have trouble getting along with younger players. If the return is good, which it should be since he is happy to sign an extension, it should work out good for both parties.
But maybe not for Thibs, his Timberbulls experiment is not looking hot right now, with his 2 best young players unhappy and his one big addition wanting out. If he doesn't get a huge return he will be out, he might be out of one of the coach/GM anyway or maybe both.
is this BS? is this Thibodeau's way of making it look like he wanted to leave and didn't get fired? this could be Thibodeau threatening to leave in order to hold on to the power he has... who knows... now, if there is any truth to this then things are unraveling in Minnesota very fast.
Minny's problem is that they just aren't very good. KAT hasn't taken the leap, and we don't really know if he can. Butler is a poor man's Klay Thompson, who is currently the 3rd best player on the Warriors and really wouldn't be the best player on any other West playoff team, and Wiggins is still Wiggins.
On September 21 2018 05:09 cLutZ wrote: Minny's problem is that they just aren't very good. KAT hasn't taken the leap, and we don't really know if he can. Butler is a poor man's Klay Thompson, who is currently the 3rd best player on the Warriors and really wouldn't be the best player on any other West playoff team, and Wiggins is still Wiggins.
Wow, i think that is all wrong. Other than wiggins being wiggins, this is as true as lebron is lebron and boban is boban.
I don't think Butler is a poor man's Klay. Klay is just a catch and shoot guy. Butler is able to create his own shots at a good but not elite level. Klay plays good defense but doesn't really get steals and rebounds. Butler fills in the stat sheet while playing defense. And I'm pretty sure Klay is only the 4th best Warrior. They're not really interchangeable in their roles.
The rest of the roster is an overrated dumpster fire though. And I don't think Thibs is the proper coach to get them closer to their potential.
i think eventually we'll find out Thibodeau is an excellent assistant coach and x's and o's guy. However, Thibodeau is lousy when it comes to the soft science of motivating players and creating a team atmosphere. An atmosphere where every player has every other players back.
best guy i've ever seen at that is Cito Gaston. Different sport though. the # of guys who arrived as "problem children"... then after leaving less than 2 years later became "problem children" again.
any how, I think Thibodeau got "peter principled" into a job for which he is not suited.
Ya, Thibs sounds like one of those top NFL defensive coordinators who get promoted to head coach and make time management look like fucking rocket science.
I also feel like he is a bit overrated since he padded his regular season stats by overplaying his starters.
On September 21 2018 08:37 andrewlt wrote: I also feel like he is a bit overrated since he padded his regular season stats by overplaying his starters.
yep. Now that Butler has had 1 pretty serious knee injury that required surgery you wonder how soon his body will break down again if he is ever given the same workload he was last year.
On September 22 2018 12:37 Jerubaal wrote: I know it's NHL, but that guy who got punched at several times and didn't swing back: That's a real man.
the guy that threw the punch... his dad did the same thing at the 2nd NHL game i'd ever seen. it was a fun game. like father like son i guess.
i remember when i turned 30 people asked me if i felt old... not really.. recounting the stories of the fathers of current pro athletes ... that makes me feel old.