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On January 24 2017 20:21 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the problem is that going back and invalidating the goal just.. sucks. The players gave it everything they fucking had (individual players have to sprint for 20 meters because the linesman was too slow indicating offside already get upset about this - now you had 10 players making 80 meter sprints and two guys collided in a way that couldve created an injury) and then scored a mastergoal and then it's invalidated because of some small foul that started before the attack even happened. I think it's honestly okay that small infractions are wrongly given or wrongly ignored. I like video refereeing when the referee's choice is basically what creates or takes away a goal (or red card). But here the referee's action is not the one creating the goal, it's 11 seconds of brilliant football from several players.
I think if it's more than 5 seconds of decision time for this type of situation then I honestly prefer the current situation of some goals being wrongfully awarded over them going back and cancelling the counter attack. Blame it on your teammate. Maybe then players will stop playing dirty? I really really hope we get cases like this where a team lost a goal because one of their teammates decided to foul someone.
The problem in this case is that it wasn't a foul. But with the new rules the referee could have stopped the game to check if it was a foul or not...
If it had stopped the game during the counter attack, it would penalize a team that didn't do anything.
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On January 24 2017 20:35 bObaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 20:21 sharkie wrote:On January 24 2017 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the problem is that going back and invalidating the goal just.. sucks. The players gave it everything they fucking had (individual players have to sprint for 20 meters because the linesman was too slow indicating offside already get upset about this - now you had 10 players making 80 meter sprints and two guys collided in a way that couldve created an injury) and then scored a mastergoal and then it's invalidated because of some small foul that started before the attack even happened. I think it's honestly okay that small infractions are wrongly given or wrongly ignored. I like video refereeing when the referee's choice is basically what creates or takes away a goal (or red card). But here the referee's action is not the one creating the goal, it's 11 seconds of brilliant football from several players.
I think if it's more than 5 seconds of decision time for this type of situation then I honestly prefer the current situation of some goals being wrongfully awarded over them going back and cancelling the counter attack. Blame it on your teammate. Maybe then players will stop playing dirty? I really really hope we get cases like this where a team lost a goal because one of their teammates decided to foul someone. The problem in this case is that it wasn't a foul. But with the new rules the referee could have stopped the game to check if it was a foul or not... If it had stopped the game during the counter attack, it would penalize a team that didn't do anything.
I don't follow. I don't think you're understanding the way the Germans are implementing the video referee system.
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On January 24 2017 20:35 bObaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 20:21 sharkie wrote:On January 24 2017 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
the problem is that going back and invalidating the goal just.. sucks. The players gave it everything they fucking had (individual players have to sprint for 20 meters because the linesman was too slow indicating offside already get upset about this - now you had 10 players making 80 meter sprints and two guys collided in a way that couldve created an injury) and then scored a mastergoal and then it's invalidated because of some small foul that started before the attack even happened. I think it's honestly okay that small infractions are wrongly given or wrongly ignored. I like video refereeing when the referee's choice is basically what creates or takes away a goal (or red card). But here the referee's action is not the one creating the goal, it's 11 seconds of brilliant football from several players.
I think if it's more than 5 seconds of decision time for this type of situation then I honestly prefer the current situation of some goals being wrongfully awarded over them going back and cancelling the counter attack. Blame it on your teammate. Maybe then players will stop playing dirty? I really really hope we get cases like this where a team lost a goal because one of their teammates decided to foul someone. The problem in this case is that it wasn't a foul. But with the new rules the referee could have stopped the game to check if it was a foul or not... If it had stopped the game during the counter attack, it would penalize a team that didn't do anything.
If it wasn't a foul the ref won't stop the game to check it o.O
or if he was unsure he could just let play go on and ask video ref to check it in the background...
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It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here...
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On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here...
At the club world cup play was stopped for review during a throw in and not in the middle of the action.
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On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here...
-everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref.
If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back.
And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all.
So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway.
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So referee checks only when play stops? What if play takes a long time before stopping XD
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On January 24 2017 22:14 DucK- wrote:
So referee checks only when play stops? What if play takes a long time before stopping XD
Goals stop the game anyway...
Red cards can be given with any delay... (it is only about the red card here, so the play afterwards stands)
In fact, only penalties are an issue. Here the ref may miss a penalty, ball stays in bounds, the play does not stop for 5 minutes... Afaik here the play can actually be stopped at a suitable time by the ref. (so not during the counter, but when play has calmed down)
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On January 24 2017 22:14 DucK- wrote:
So referee checks only when play stops? What if play takes a long time before stopping XD
You are being facetecious.
He can check, whenever he wants he will only stop play if deemed necessary at an appropriate time.
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On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing Show nested quote +
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway.
You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon).
So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point.
But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out.
Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring.
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On January 25 2017 00:01 bObaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway. You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon). So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point. But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring.
I dont understand whats so confusing here, there is nothing stopping anyone from checking shit whenever the fuck they feel like and stopping play only if deeming it necessary.
There is no issue here. You are creating one where an issue does not exist. The handball claim is made, an outside ref checks the video sees no problem, stays the fuck out of it, no foul.. no harm. Meanwhile play went on and no one gave a shit.
This isnt really all that complex unless you try to force it to be that complicated.
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On January 25 2017 00:24 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 00:01 bObaZ wrote:On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway. You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon). So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point. But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring. I dont understand whats so confusing here, there is nothing stopping anyone from checking shit whenever the fuck they feel like and stopping play only if deeming it necessary. There is no issue here. You are creating one where an issue does not exist. The handball claim is made, an outside ref checks the video sees no problem, stays the fuck out of it, no foul.. no harm. Meanwhile play went on and no one gave a shit. This isnt really all that complex unless you try to force it to be that complicated.
Maybe that's it. Only time will tell.
It will certainly be entertaining in Portugal. All we talk about everyday is refereeing. So now we'll have one more referee to talk about.
You should come to Portugal one day. We should be the only country in the world with only 10M inhabitants with 3 daily newspapers only for football, and programs do discuss football/refereeing every single day from 10pm to 11:30 pm in 2 or 3 different channels.
That's probably why i'm a little paranoid with referees.
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I think this is a good thing. Obviously people will always be opposed to change, but if it really turns out to be terrible we can switch back which I highly doubt will be necessary.
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On January 25 2017 00:31 bObaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 00:24 Rebs wrote:On January 25 2017 00:01 bObaZ wrote:On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway. You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon). So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point. But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring. I dont understand whats so confusing here, there is nothing stopping anyone from checking shit whenever the fuck they feel like and stopping play only if deeming it necessary. There is no issue here. You are creating one where an issue does not exist. The handball claim is made, an outside ref checks the video sees no problem, stays the fuck out of it, no foul.. no harm. Meanwhile play went on and no one gave a shit. This isnt really all that complex unless you try to force it to be that complicated. Maybe that's it. Only time will tell. It will certainly be entertaining in Portugal. All we talk about everyday is refereeing. So now we'll have one more referee to talk about. You should come to Portugal one day. We should be the only country in the world with only 10M inhabitants with 3 daily newspapers only for football, and programs do discuss football/refereeing every single day from 10pm to 11:30 pm in 2 or 3 different channels. That's probably why i'm a little paranoid with referees.
There are plenty of things in Portugal to enjoy that do not involve any of these things :p. Although I was only passing by Lisbon.
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I hope it is implemented in Spain. Spain referees are in crisis, and this last two years they have reached their worst level ever. They are so bad that in a lot of matches both teams complain about the calls.
And Barcelona and Real Madrid (and this season Sevilla) are always favored above small teams.
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On January 25 2017 00:24 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 00:01 bObaZ wrote:On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway. You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon). So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point. But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring. I dont understand whats so confusing here, there is nothing stopping anyone from checking shit whenever the fuck they feel like and stopping play only if deeming it necessary. There is no issue here. You are creating one where an issue does not exist. The handball claim is made, an outside ref checks the video sees no problem, stays the fuck out of it, no foul.. no harm. Meanwhile play went on and no one gave a shit. This isnt really all that complex unless you try to force it to be that complicated.
It would feel pretty stupid to have the scenario in the video, but with an intentional handball. Then the ref gets the info afterwards, disallows the goal and gives the other team a penalty. I wouldn't want half my team on a 80m sprint for nothing. And sure, players will make fewer obvious fouls since they'll know they'll get caught, but there remain plenty of cases where the player themselves cannot judge whether his own action is a foul or not, it's just not that clear. 'Let's not go all-in for this counter because I have a 60% chance of it getting called off later' is not something I'd welcome into football.
Oh, and please stop making discussions personal all the time.
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On January 25 2017 15:14 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2017 00:24 Rebs wrote:On January 25 2017 00:01 bObaZ wrote:On January 24 2017 21:34 mahrgell wrote:On January 24 2017 21:11 bObaZ wrote:
It isn't as linear as that...
The ref might think it wasn't a foul, but the Video ref thinks it was a foul. And the Ref might stop the game based on that opinion of the video ref just to check it himself...
I think i'm understanding everything, but i might be missing something here... -everything +nothing
There will be only 4 situations in which those will be used:
- goals
- penalties
- red cards
- mixed up/unclear who committed a personal foul
Is this hand ball a goal, causing a penalty a red card or a mixed up player? No! So even if the video ref thinks this was a foul, he will stfu during the play. He has no reason to talk to the ref. If this entire situation leads to a goal, THEN, AND ONLY THEN he can now tell the main ref, that the goal may have been the result of a foul. And THEN the ref may decide to look at it or trust his video ref and call it back. And if it does not lead to a goal, or the video ref decides that too much time has passed between missed foul and goal (and thus the goal isn't a direct result of that wrong decision) then nothing happens at all. So no, the refs will not suddenly make "hey, I wanna watch TV" whistles midgame. The play is stopped for review, when the ball is out of play, and your scenario simply doesn't exit anyway. You clearly didn't see the video. The handball was a Penalty Claim for the other team (Sporting Lisbon). So it clearly falls in the discussion that we are having. If it was just a normal foull in the middle of the pitch i wouln't be making this point. But if the referee only checked the video when game stops it would solve problems like the one i'm pointing out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all in favor of the video referee, i'm just trying to point out one clear issue that this system will bring. I dont understand whats so confusing here, there is nothing stopping anyone from checking shit whenever the fuck they feel like and stopping play only if deeming it necessary. There is no issue here. You are creating one where an issue does not exist. The handball claim is made, an outside ref checks the video sees no problem, stays the fuck out of it, no foul.. no harm. Meanwhile play went on and no one gave a shit. This isnt really all that complex unless you try to force it to be that complicated. It would feel pretty stupid to have the scenario in the video, but with an intentional handball. Then the ref gets the info afterwards, disallows the goal and gives the other team a penalty. I wouldn't want half my team on a 80m sprint for nothing. And sure, players will make fewer obvious fouls since they'll know they'll get caught, but there remain plenty of cases where the player themselves cannot judge whether his own action is a foul or not, it's just not that clear. 'Let's not go all-in for this counter because I have a 60% chance of it getting called off later' is not something I'd welcome into football. Oh, and please stop making discussions personal all the time.
I still dont see the big deal here. You are making it sound like an 80m sprint or a beautiful move being wasted is a real travesty (its really not especially considering how rare this scenario would be) and not the fact that the infraction was missed.
Also no one thinks like that. You play to the whistle and that's what players do always. If you think players are going to think "gosh I wonder if that foul gets given then maybe my efforts might go to waste.." nope sorry doesnt happen. Wont happen.
You are all hypothesizing worst cases as if there is no benefit and only bad things can happen. And forget the ridiculousness of the scenarios.
But lets just ignore that for a minute, lets pretend like your factitious scenarios are relevant.
If the criticism is well it wont work in all scenarios.. Well fuck me. I guess I should stop getting flu shots because they dont 100 percent eleminate the flu. It would really suck to get a needle stuck in your arm and then get the flu anway.
Oh and I'm sorry, personal ? Perhaps caustic at times, but I dont see where there has been anything personal in this discussion? If its the language you have a problem with then you can imagine it gets frustrating to see 3 other people explain the same point multiple times without obscurity and the point didnt seem to be getting through.
Best part is it doesnt seem like its gotten through to you either.
+ Show Spoiler +
Heres an example of personal. "you dont know what personal means.." Give me a few chances and I willl complete the "all the time part for you aswell if you like."
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Southampton going to Wembley!
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Liverpool hmm so interesting in that game. They weren't terrible but they were not amazing. Southampton created just as much as them but in fairness Liverpool should have had a penalty from the Long handball but still hmm.
Liverpool need make sure they get back to some form quickly. Play Chelsea in 7 days time in the league !
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On January 25 2017 09:23 haitike wrote:
I hope it is implemented in Spain. Spain referees are in crisis, and this last two years they have reached their worst level ever. They are so bad that in a lot of matches both teams complain about the calls.
And Barcelona and Real Madrid (and this season Sevilla) are always favored above small teams.
Spain
both teams complain about the calls.
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EPT
