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On September 23 2015 00:05 RvB wrote:Fergie is a huge asset but more than players like Giggs and Scholes? I don't think so. Sure he's had huge success but he's had some crazy good teams to work with as well (and some lesser ones which he gave over to Moyes). Show nested quote +Plenty of players came and went during United's success the only consistent factor was Fergie. So he was clearly Uniteds most valuable asset. Staying so long at a club and being succesful is really impressive but of course he'll stay longer than players since except for a few players their careers simply aren't that long. If Messi could've played till he was 80 I'm sure he'd stay at Barca as well.
And yet the average, time a manager spends at a club is far far less than a player. What can happen and what does happen are completely different realities. There is no evidence to suggest that it is a matter of course.
I think Fergie was more valuable than Giggs or Scholes, even at their prime. Had he failed to win without them playing day in day out, perhaps you could. Fergie won without them, they never won without him. Granted they never left but you get my point.
Also Fergie gets alot of credit for even making them the players they are. They would say the same thing. Im not a Fergie fan mind you. I am firm believer in the chewing gum witch doctor fergie time hoodoo. But it is what it is.
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Agreed with Rebs here, he was far more important than any 1 player. Even though it's impossible to say how exactly he worked that magic (maybe he didn't even know himself, it certainly didn't get much clearer for me from the autography book), the team could still perform even with 3-4 starting players missing.
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And yet the average, time a manager spends at a club is far far less than a player. What can happen and what does happen are completely different realities. There is no evidence to suggest that it is a matter of course.
You're comparing apples to oranges though is what I'm trying to say. Of course it's an incredible achievement to stay at a club for so long and win so many prizes but for an active football player this is simply impossible.
I think Fergie was more valuable than Giggs or Scholes, even at their prime. Had he failed to win without them playing day in day out, perhaps you could. Fergie won without them, they never won without him. Granted they never left but you get my point.
Also Fergie gets alot of credit for even making them the players they are. They would say the same thing. Im not a Fergie fan mind you. I am firm believer in the chewing gum witch doctor fergie time hoodoo. But it is what it is.
ALl players say that about some trainer. I don't really think the influece of a trainer is that big on a players football ability. The Ajax team of '95 would have been sick regardless of Van Gaal being trainer and I think the same is true for the Barca of Pep and the Arsenal of Wenger which won the league unbeaten.
Do trainers have some influence on team performance? Yes, they do. Are they the most important and thus most valuable factor? No I don't think they're even close.
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Eva Carnera left Chelsea apparently 
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Norway28916 Posts
I think fergie definitely most valuable united person. I also think Messi/Ronaldo are the only two players so irreplacable that top clubs should cater to them over top managers.
But I mean with United it's just completely obvious. He got rid of star players on multiple occasions, rebuilt the team at least twice, he was always able to win titles regardless of what happened to the player base, and once he left, the team started sucking and hasn't looked as good as any team fergie managed from 95 onward. Obviously Ferguson was more critical to the team's success than any individual player was. Sure, you can handpick a season where one player might have been more influential than him (Cantona at his peak, Ronaldo in his last season perhaps?), but absolutely not over the 25 years he was leading them, not scholes or giggs either.
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Arsenal’s claim of wrongful dismissal in relation to Gabriel has been upheld following an Independent Regulatory Commission hearing. The player’s three-match suspension has, therefore, been withdrawn with immediate effect. Read more at www.arsenal.com
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On September 23 2015 01:51 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +And yet the average, time a manager spends at a club is far far less than a player. What can happen and what does happen are completely different realities. There is no evidence to suggest that it is a matter of course. You're comparing apples to oranges though is what I'm trying to say. Of course it's an incredible achievement to stay at a club for so long and win so many prizes but for an active football player this is simply impossible. Show nested quote +I think Fergie was more valuable than Giggs or Scholes, even at their prime. Had he failed to win without them playing day in day out, perhaps you could. Fergie won without them, they never won without him. Granted they never left but you get my point.
Also Fergie gets alot of credit for even making them the players they are. They would say the same thing. Im not a Fergie fan mind you. I am firm believer in the chewing gum witch doctor fergie time hoodoo. But it is what it is. ALl players say that about some trainer. I don't really think the influece of a trainer is that big on a players football ability. The Ajax team of '95 would have been sick regardless of Van Gaal being trainer and I think the same is true for the Barca of Pep and the Arsenal of Wenger which won the league unbeaten. Do trainers have some influence on team performance? Yes, they do. Are they the most important and thus most valuable factor? No I don't think they're even close.
Im not the one comparing them, you are or Pandemona before you. You said that they players were more important. I just said he was the most valuable asset at United. Whether that be players, the massage guy, the janitor whoever.
The point you are bringing up is kinda irrelevant because career spans are not what we are discussing and they dont hold much weight in the sort of discussion we are having because regardless of how long a manager can stay at a single club, managers dont really stick around.
Now saying that all those teams would have won without said managers is nice and all, but the thing is thats what happened so I would certainly give them plenty of credit.
And heres the kicker those are all short term achievements. Im not saying Van Gaal or Pep or Wenger are or were the most important people at their respective clubs.
I am saying Alex Ferguson specifically was the most important thing to Manchester United. Thats all.
He was so important that a horse racing ownership argument with the previous owners practically got them the Glazers. You think if Mou has a major disagreement with Roman hes going to hang around long ?
And yeah all that stuff that Drone said about rebuilding teams and so an so forth I had hoped would be covered by my previous comment that "the only thing that was consistent during Uniteds success was Fergie".
The merits of how one single person should hold so many cards at a club are debatable. Especially having seen what United has turned into the last few years. But that again is a separate discussion.
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On September 23 2015 02:40 sneirac wrote:Show nested quote +Arsenal’s claim of wrongful dismissal in relation to Gabriel has been upheld following an Independent Regulatory Commission hearing. The player’s three-match suspension has, therefore, been withdrawn with immediate effect. Read more at www.arsenal.com
Reverse angle that apparently played a role in this decision: weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com
kick only: gfycat.com
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Ok FA is silly.
Now before i get rekt here by Arsenal fans and everyone in the world.
What Gabriel got his red card for (which i learnt now was a straight red) was for kicking Costa under the referee's nose. This is the same level of "kick" as what David Beckham did in the World Cup against Argentina which every England fan chastised him over for many months. Is now been told you can do that....but when we go into these european competitions and do the same thing and get banned for it we now are going to look at the FA bewildered.
I agree 3 match ban is way to much for what he did, i also would say if they gave him the 1 match ban for what he should have gotten (2nd yellow card into red is ALWAYS 1 match ban) then Arsenal fans wouldn't care if he misses the Tottenham game in the League cup.
Costa should get banned, don't get me wrong you cant rake someones face that is dumb, i don't mind a chest bump though that isn't that bad. But a 3 match ban for the face rake whatever you want to call it vs nothing for Gabriel seems a bit strange. They also have history of clashes if they went back to La Liga footage TT
Oh well. /Rant
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Wolfsburg up 1-0 against Bayern. If they win they'll be within one point of both Bayern and BVB. BVB plays tomorrow.
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Neuer going full Ter Stegen, and then some. that could have been awesome
Edit: streamable.com
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What the hell just happened? lol
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4-1 now, lewandowski 4goals within 7minutes.
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Netherlands13554 Posts
lol
across the midway line
what do those youth academies in Germany teach their goalkeepers??!
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Lewandowski subbed on 45th, goals 51st, 52nd, 55th and 57th
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4 goals in 6 minutes, it's insane.
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holy shit, what a goal(and also his 5th)
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On September 23 2015 04:16 sneirac wrote:
Lewandowski subbed on 45th, goals 51st, 52nd, 55th and 57th
number 5 at 59th
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EPT
