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On December 02 2014 06:37 Steveling wrote:
I'd love it for a keeper to win it but it would be a farce if neuer won when players like buffon weren't even close.
Who are those other "playerS like Buffon". Kahn? Schmeichel? van der Saar?
Also Buffon was 2nd for Ballon d'Or in 2006, so as a matter of fact, at least once he was as close as anyone could possibly be without winning it (unless you chose to only count "FIFA world player of the year awards" for the time before those awards were merged).
Apart from that, what would be a greater farce: To err once, or to knowingly give the award to someone who deserves it a little less in order to make the previous error look less bad? (I'm not saying this is the case here, but it appears to me that's what you would prefer to Neuer winning it even if he actually deserved it)
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Well, for better or worse(for worse actually), by not giving the ballon to any other keeper bar yashin, they created a precedent.
That a mythical keeper of the same caliber as yashin can only win it. If neuer wins it now, that's unfair to 5-6 legendary keepers of the past 40 years that could have won as well.
The best solution I think is to create a ballon for keepers, one for defensive players and one for attackers.
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On December 02 2014 06:18 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 05:04 sharkie wrote:
Why do people think a gk need to be good on the ball? That baffles me so much.
Spain won 2 EC and one WC with Casillas who isn't any good (with the ball). Real DESTROYED the best Bayern side probably ever with Casillas. Dortmund won two German championships vs Bayern who are/were in every way superior to Dortmund. Argentina got to the final of the WC with a gk who didn't play together with the team at all. I doubt Courtouis, Cech or Hart are any good with the ball. Yet they were all vital gks in their winning campaigns.
Neuer was one of the key players for Germany in the WC yes, but not because of his "abilities with the ball" but because he is very good at predicting run paths of players. Also his body (tallness) allows him to make these risky plays
Where did this myth appear from? It just adds another dimension to your gameplan. You can add half a duzend more triangles on the field. Messi or Ronaldo arent a necessity to win but you rather want them on your team then dont have them.
I disagree, I've thought about it a lot, tried to justify it and studied it a bit. And frankly whiles its always nice and a certain advantage to have a keeper thats good on the ball the benefits are relatively miniscule.
Even when he did play sweeper it was mostly on a time dominating posession with a high line and sometimes under pressure but always with an easy out.
Its not like its 5 a side where you can add "dimensions to play" that dimension you are referring to is just as useful as a keeper running into the opponents box when you need a goal and times run out.
Still best keeper around these days for sure. Bit early to rate him in all time terms.
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Dear Steveling, no one saying Lev Yashin was a sweeper. Lev Yashin is the creator of the modern GK. I highly suggest to you read this.
Goalkeepers were trying to play sweeper before Neuer but none of them were as good as him. Neuer is the one who take sweeper to the next level and perfected this style. This is why you can call him the Lev Yashin of the modern GK's. We are likely to see more sweepers GKs just like Neuer in the future.
On December 02 2014 07:26 Steveling wrote:
Messi won the last liga on his own, on iniesta/xavi's worst seasons.
But we are talking about keepers, other keepers have carried their teams to trophies, neuer hasn't.
Okay :D
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Ok mensol, I'm sry I didn't understand your scribble.
Next time try passing it through google translator first.
+ Show Spoiler +apply water to burned area, haha
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You cant even argue, I kinda feel bad for you.
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Why do people give so much importance to the award?
Anyway, odds are like:
Ronaldo 1/6
Neuer and Messi: 7/1 each
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I think it is mostly the debate of who is the best rather than the award, because the award itself is a bit of joke to be honest.
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so saw some news that Mourinho is interested in our young guy Carlos Mané.. hope not :p
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On December 02 2014 08:23 Ysellian wrote:
I think it is mostly the debate of who is the best rather than the award, because the award itself is a bit of joke to be honest.
Who is the best at marketing. If it's strictly about who's the best, I don't think there should be any debate, but again marketing at its best trying to sell us a rivalry when there's a big gap between the two... Anyway that's my opinion.
About the best of this year, this is something I don't really understand because the reward takes into account August-October (we saw last year how these months full of unimportant games mattered in the final result) but not November-December. So the trophy isn't clearly defined, is it the best of the calendar year or the best of the season? Why are people talking about 2013-2014 statistics like Ronaldo's CL record? With 70% of his goals scored in the groupstage, meaning 'only' 7 goals in the knockout stage (it's still impressive) in 2014.
Why are people considering that Ronaldo had a better 2014 than Neuer/Lahm/Robben or even Messi? If I remember correctly, RM lost la Liga to Atletico not winning a single game against Barcelona and Atletico. They won the CL thanks to a last minute undeserved goal, and people were praising Di Maria and Modric in the quarter, semi and final of the tournament, not Ronaldo. I'm not talking about the WC because he didn't even have the chance to perform well (physical condition and teammates). So why is he on the list?
Same for Messi, he hasn't won a single trophy with Barcelona and even though I consider that he did a great World Cup, he didn't bring the trophy back to Argentina. Still he won the MVP award of the tournament. Why is that?
And why is Neuer the one everybody's praising right now instead of Lahm or Müller? They won the same trophies and Lahm would deserve a Ballon d'Or for his career... So why is it only Neuer they're talking about in Germany? Marketing... They know they have to have everyone behind a single player to get the most votes possible. Remember 2010 when Messi won it? Iniesta + Xavi would have been 30%+ for Messi's 22%.
About Ronaldo and Messi, their agents are calling everyone to say "vote for my guy" because they know the economic value of this trophy. Nowadays, some players get Ballon d'Or clauses in their contract for salary bumps or transfer bonuses... It's just ridiculous. There's also the ego part where not winning the trophy would upset these players (see Ribery...) so their agents do everything they can to avoid having to see tears...
The trophy lost its value when the FIFA got to decide how it would be awarded, and even though we all know it's purely marketing and meaningless, every year we discuss it and every year we watch the stupid gala, so their stupid marketing is working. Even I am discussing it right now!!! We're all doomed.
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"Why are people considering that Ronaldo had a better 2014 than Neuer/Lahm/Robben or even Messi? "
Over Messi: better stats, Champions League. Over Neuer/Lahm/Robben: CL semi-finals, and who would pick any of those three over Ronaldo or Messi for their pickup football team? This is not "best player of WC award" or "lifetime achievement award", it's best player in 2014.
How else would you guys have the trophy voted? I don't think it's wise to give votes to all the football associations of the world given how small most of them are, but I think the balance with the media vote is OK.
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So you're saying that a CL and a Copa del Rey is better than a Bundesliga + a World Cup?
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On December 02 2014 11:11 WillyWanker wrote:
So you're saying that a CL and a Copa del Rey is better than a Bundesliga + a World Cup?
No, where did I say that? What I meant was that that semi-final was a major blow to Bayern Munich's image as a powerhouse last year. Robben didn't win the WC btw.
If we could figure out a win-shares or some other kind of NBA-like advanced stat for football, I'd really doubt we'd see Neuer or Lahm anywhere near Ronaldo and Messi.
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I love stats in life, it's even part of my job, but for sports? I hate that concept. People are talking about statistics far too much, where is the emotional part in sport if you just talk about stats? If it's just about stats, then maybe Ronaldo should win it this year, but Messi is magic. I don't feel anything when I see Ronaldo playing, he's like a robot. An arrogant one (on the pitch at least, I heard he was a nice guy elsewhere).
If we analyze stats maybe we should analyze them even deeper... Ronaldo CL's record last year? 10 goals during groupstage, 4 against Schalke in the ro16 (0-3 and 0-6 goals in the 1st leg), 1 against Dortmund in the ro8 (3-0 goal in the 1st leg), 2 against Bayern in the ro4 (0-3 and 0-4 goals in the 2nd leg), and 1 against Atletico in the final (a dive for the 1-4 goal). What does it say about this record? Where is his influence in the game? Do you remember these games? I remember him being invisible in games against Bayern and Atletico, I remember Ramos saving their asses twice and Modric leading the team with a superb Di Maria...
Maybe I'm too romantic (I'm French after all!) but I don't want to analyze games or players based on results and stats. Sometimes the score means nothing, you can lose games you completely dominate and you can win games where you suck hard (Chelsea's CL run in 2012). You can score 50 goals in a season and suck during the important games (see Ibrahimovic's career).
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If you're going on heart and you're a diehard Barcelona fan then there's no point in debating this. 
(btw he started the play for the first leg goal vs Bayern with a cutting pass to Coentrão; he scored twice in the second leg and was injured vs Atletico. Hardly fair to call him invisible).
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On December 02 2014 11:19 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 11:11 WillyWanker wrote:
So you're saying that a CL and a Copa del Rey is better than a Bundesliga + a World Cup? No, where did I say that? What I meant was that that semi-final was a major blow to Bayern Munich's image as a powerhouse last year. Robben didn't win the WC btw. If we could figure out a win-shares or some other kind of NBA-like advanced stat for football, I'd really doubt we'd see Neuer or Lahm anywhere near Ronaldo and Messi.
How was it a blow to their image?
Sure, they lost pretty badly, but they lost to a perennial European powerhouse in the semifinals a year after they won the Treble. Powerhouses lose like this more often than people like to admit.
Not only that, but I give winning the WC a lot more weight than the CL. The CL comes around every year and you can just throw money at the problem and gobble up as much great talent as you can find. You can't do that with a WC that comes around once every 4 years.
I think this award is a complete joke and I don't even care who wins, but downplaying Neuer's achievements this year is laughable. He was absolutely instrumental in the WC win, particularly in both the Algeria and France games (where they would've lost without him). He has repeatedly proven his worth by making quality saves as well, and he also won the Double and put up several insane records over the past year. His sweeper play isn't minuscule and cannot be compared to a keeper coming up to the offense in stoppage time. That's either woefully ignorant or purposefully lying to try to downplay his accomplishments. His play is instrumental to several German wins as well as the style that both Germany and Bayern play.
In terms of the award, there are some questions that can be raised due to the fact that he has such a fantastic/dominant team in front of him, but the exact same questions can be made about Ronaldo and Messi, particularly Ronaldo. He performed so well in Europe, but looked like absolute shit in the WC when he needed to really carry his team because of the lack of quality around him.
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On December 02 2014 08:23 Ysellian wrote:
I think it is mostly the debate of who is the best rather than the award, because the award itself is a bit of joke to be honest.
Ain't no best. (East west north south flossed out, greedy...)
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On December 02 2014 13:18 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Not only that, but I give winning the WC a lot more weight than the CL. The CL comes around every year and you can just throw money at the problem and gobble up as much great talent as you can find. You can't do that with a WC that comes around once every 4 years.
That's a questionable statement. At least in CL anyone can throw money for a chance to win it, and towards the end the competition is really tight. In WC if your team isn't called Germany, Brazil or Italy you can't win.
As for the award, it's just a popularity contest. Plus the whole Messi vs Ronaldo got old and boring pretty fast, and I'll be happy if someone else wins it, especially that a few players had legitimately superb years this year.
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Should've been Robben's or Sergio Ramos' award.
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EPT
