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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
On September 11 2014 07:37 AgentW wrote: I think that timeframe might be a bit soon, but I'm slowly moving toward the "Goodell will be canned" camp. EDIT: haha + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SSJJiWK.png) Damned phone trying to edit. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On September 11 2014 07:12 AgentW wrote: The thing I don't understand is why protect Ray Rice of all people? the only thing i can think of is that the league just didn't view it as that terrible of a thing since they assumed it went unseen besides the aftermath. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
I guess the Commish really could lose his job over this if it's proven the NFL saw this tape. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On September 11 2014 05:50 red_ wrote: Care to link the video you saw because the one everyone else looked at showed a man who hit HIS FIANCE in the face twice with absolutely 0 provocation worth punching ANYONE(let alone your future wife), spitting on her, and then standing over her unconscious body with less regard/remorse than a pro fighter for his opponent. Dude doesn't even give her a once over to see if her face got busted on the railing it hit, he just chills waiting for the elevator doors(must've been quite the view for whoever called the elevator that caused it to open before ground floor; oh I'll wait for the next one, thanks). Didn't say there was anything 'worth' his actions. He shouldn't have done what he did. In any relationship that results in what happened in that elevator both people need help not prison. By making a stink about it and just vilifying him, people are just ensuring that the relationship and their child ends up even more messed up than if everyone just kept it to those involved (authorities and institutional help included) and actually tried to help these people, instead of just giving their armchair relationship advice and wetting the sponge for the electric chair. All the while cheering on some other team with a guy who did something just as bad or worse but just didn't happen to get caught on tape. Frankly, I think that the NFL covered it up in an effort to protect the image of its brand. This is wholly in line with how they have operated in the past, such as with the concussion lawsuits. They showed him dragging her unconscious body out of the elevator what more did people need to see to know he knocked her out? It's not like they were circulating a story about how Venom dropped down the shaft knocked her out and webbed away? | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On September 11 2014 14:23 GreenHorizons wrote: Didn't say there was anything 'worth' his actions. He shouldn't have done what he did. In any relationship that results in what happened in that elevator both people need help not prison. By making a stink about it and just vilifying him, people are just ensuring that the relationship and their child ends up even more messed up than if everyone just kept it to those involved (authorities and institutional help included) and actually tried to help these people, instead of just giving their armchair relationship advice and wetting the sponge for the electric chair. All the while cheering on some other team with a guy who did something just as bad or worse but just didn't happen to get caught on tape. You did say "it wasn't so bad" though. Excepting him continuing to lay into her after she's unconscious that's about as bad as 'domestic assault' can get on a single case basis. I get the angle that putting him in prison only guarantees that little Rayven grows up fatherless which statistically leads to a bunch of bad things, but I'm not sure you can let this shit just slide either. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 11 2014 14:23 GreenHorizons wrote: Didn't say there was anything 'worth' his actions. He shouldn't have done what he did. In any relationship that results in what happened in that elevator both people need help not prison. By making a stink about it and just vilifying him, people are just ensuring that the relationship and their child ends up even more messed up than if everyone just kept it to those involved (authorities and institutional help included) and actually tried to help these people, instead of just giving their armchair relationship advice and wetting the sponge for the electric chair. All the while cheering on some other team with a guy who did something just as bad or worse but just didn't happen to get caught on tape. You're just wrong. He committed a felony. Felonies aren't private. Even countries like Norway still have prisons. Domestic violence has too many apologists who single out this one crime for "counseling only". You don't see people arguing that people who commit things such as kidnappings, burglaries and arson be counseled only while skipping the prison sentence in its entirety. Every single felon needs help. There are plenty of murderers and drug dealers in prison who are the breadwinners for their family. In every case where they will eventually get out of prison, these people need help so they can be rehabilitated and reintegrated back into society. But these people don't have scores of apologists asking that their prison sentence be skipped. Plenty of children with felon fathers grow up without them. Why should domestic abusers be special? So their kids can learn that certain bad behaviors have no consequence other than a slap on the wrist? But sure, keep spreading the blame to everybody not named Ray Rice. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On September 11 2014 15:09 andrewlt wrote: You're just wrong. He committed a felony. Felonies aren't private. Even countries like Norway still have prisons. Domestic violence has too many apologists who single out this one crime for "counseling only". You don't see people arguing that people who commit things such as kidnappings, burglaries and arson be counseled only while skipping the prison sentence in its entirety. Every single felon needs help. There are plenty of murderers and drug dealers in prison who are the breadwinners for their family. In every case where they will eventually get out of prison, these people need help so they can be rehabilitated and reintegrated back into society. But these people don't have scores of apologists asking that their prison sentence be skipped. Plenty of children with felon fathers grow up without them. Why should domestic abusers be special? So their kids can learn that certain bad behaviors have no consequence other than a slap on the wrist? But sure, keep spreading the blame to everybody not named Ray Rice. I don't think you understood what I said (or read all of my posts on the topic in their entirety). What he committed is determined by the authorities. I already said he shouldn't get any special treatment. I complain when rich white guys 'get off' so I'm not going to change my tune when it's a rich black guy. In my state they both would of went to jail or neither of them (with the tape they would probably both go regardless of whether they wanted to press charges) That being said New Jersey did what they did, if that's out of line with how it would of been treated if it was some random low income couple than that's messed up. But if that's just how they do it in Jersey, than it's not a state I would pick to live in but the way they handle DV would be on a long list of reasons. Show me a petition to change it and I'll probably sign it. As for the incarceration part, I don't limit my compassion for criminals to just DV offenders I think prevention and treatment is preferable to incarceration in most cases. Of course people who are clear threats to themselves and/or others should be held until such a time that they can reasonably be considered otherwise. Recidivism is high for a reason, and I assure you it is not for lack of severity in sentencing. I don't think there is much to support the idea that incarcerating people does much positive beyond removing threats from society while they are incarcerated. But for many situations that's really not necessary and quite expensive. This situation is bad for everyone, incarceration is not always the only/best solution. EDIT: As for the 'not so bad part' I didn't mean his actions were 'not so bad' in general. I was just saying before the video I thought he just knocked her out completely unprovoked or was physically threatening her. The video does show him hitting her but it also show's him backing up. Backing up isn't really a sign of aggression/domination. Based on her response to the situation it's pretty clear that the abuse goes both ways. The video (and this tiny snapshot of their relationship) doesn't really give us insight into the depth of her abuse toward him (not that it would justify his actions). But people are ready to give her all his money and a talk show when she very well could be as emotionally abusive to him as we saw him be physically in that video (or she could be a total angel that finally had enough, we don't know, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions). His physical abuse wouldn't justify her mentally abusing him (or acting out violently) any more than hers would his. But there are real issues of women abusing men also. It is shrouded in even more shame and desperation than male on female abuse. Any woman comes out and says she is getting abused there will be people flocking to help her, ready to take her at her word, when men suggest they are being abused they are told all sorts of sexist shit like 'man up' or just laughed at. For all we know she has been abusing the shit out of him mentally and physically for years (pretty sure none of this came up before this incident) and what we see in the elevator is him finally saying "no more" (still doesn't justify it). The lack of remorse could be because she 'had it coming' in the sense that you can only push someone so far before they snap. It doesn't mean snapping is justified, just a predictable result. Could people imagine if that was the case wtf could of Ray Rice done...?? What would of people said if Rice went on some talk show saying he was in an abusive relationship? You think they would of rolled out the pity party without even asking if he was doing anything to contribute to harming the relationship or their partner? Hell No! HE would of been laughed off the phone by the producer before he ever got in the building let alone on the air. I've seen women in abusive relationships where they are the abuser and the guys are pathetically helpless. It may not be as physical and leave the same scars but believe they can be just as deep or deeper. And if people think women have a hard time getting out of abusive relationships they should see a man in one. That all being said, the odds are it is what it looked like, my biggest problem with cutting him is that I don't believe for one second anyone with half a brain in their head didn't know that what we saw wasn't practically a best case scenario (for Ray Rice) for what could of happened before the video of him dragging her out of the elevator. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
NJ had legal precedence on this matter. They came to whatever decision they did for whatever reason they did. I However this is about the NFL. The NFL (Goodell) determines the player punishment. The big thing to look at is: Why is there additional punishment beyond the legal action? $$$! The NFL wants people to keep supporting them. Goodell is responsible for making them look good when the players look bad. From what I've read, Rice already told him everything that was on the video (I haven't seen/heard any comment that Rice lied). Goodell fucked up. Either a) he never saw the video - and didn't expect this to be a story (fucked up by not acquiring the full video) or b) saw the video and underestimated the public response (bigger fuck up since his job is the serve punishment based on how the public will react). Case A (imo more likely) has the hallmark inconsistency in punishment that I've long hated from Goodell. I'm not even talking about different infractions - I'm okay with harsher penalties for what the public believes to be lesser "crimes". Rice was suspended for two games after telling exactly what the video would show. Goodell THEN changes the DV policy (but doesn't change Rice's punishment). After the video he changes the punishment... but to something different than the policy he just put out. As someone who has served as a UNION STEWARD I don't understand how this sort of operation is tolerated. Get someone (or a comity) to do this job instead. (Also, he - and the Ravens, let's not forget that they basically have reacted just as poorly - needed to try harder to get the full tape.) Case B. Goodell just completely dropped the ball on what his job. How could he ever think two weeks was justified for the way the public would react to a woman getting knocked out is beyond my comprehension. I can't understand how he could still have this job. (His job should now be him falling on his sword - figuratively. If not, his only use to the owners would be as a scapegoat anyway.) | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17486 Posts
On September 11 2014 15:51 GreenHorizons wrote: As for the incarceration part, I don't limit my compassion for criminals to just DV offenders I think prevention and treatment is preferable to incarceration in most cases. Of course people who are clear threats to themselves and/or others should be held until such a time that they can reasonably be considered otherwise. Recidivism is high for a reason, and I assure you it is not for lack of severity in sentencing. I don't think there is much to support the idea that incarcerating people does much positive beyond removing threats from society while they are incarcerated. But for many situations that's really not necessary and quite expensive. This situation is bad for everyone, incarceration is not always the only/best solution. i really like Canada's "soft on crime" method of dealing with criminal idiots as opposed to some states in the USA that want to lock u up and throw away the key for stealing a potato from a grocery store. at this point the NFL owners are simply doing a cost-benefit analysis of keeping the commissioner. watching this soap opera makes me laugh when i remember all those NFL games with everyone running around wearing pink. i really hope the female NFL fans gather together as a cohesive unit and send the only kind of message the NFL really listens to.... an economic message. the NFL is a brutally violent league with its participants encouraged to be violent. plenty of NFL players regularly beat their wives. unfortunately, this PR nightmare for the NFL won't change that. this has been a really negative post so i'd just like to end it on a positive note. its nice to see the Bills staying in Buffalo. the games are a lot more fun in Buffalo than in Toronto. I hope Buffalo never plays another game in Toronto. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
What the fuck are you even talking about Edit: really your whole post was garbage but that line in particular is just complete nonsense | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17486 Posts
On September 12 2014 03:19 Aveng3r wrote: "Plenty of nfl players regularly beat their wives" What the fuck are you even talking about Edit: really your whole post was garbage but that line in particular is just complete nonsense in my opinion Ray Rice is the tip of iceberg. the extracurricular violence of NFL players past and present is well documented. http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/09/us/nfl-players-domestic-violence-accusations/ if the NFL believed Ray Rice were the only wife beater in the entire league there were be no new policy against it. but, we now do have a new policy. the NFL is bracing itself and has put forward a solid defensive posture with this new policy. if you think only the guys who have been caught by law enforcement are the only ones engaged in illegal violent activities.. you're being pretty naive. On September 12 2014 03:19 Aveng3r wrote: Edit: really your whole post was garbage but that line in particular is just complete nonsense no.. its a point worthy of consideration.... consider there may be other wife/gf beaters out there... just open your mind and consider the possibility that a group of 1,000+ men engaged in a brutally violent full time job ( while consuming a drug store of pharmaceuticals to keep the inflammation injuries at bay) may be violent in other aspects of their lives. amongst any group of 1000+ men plenty beat their wives. you can delve into the stats if u wish http://www.dvcpartners.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=58 i think the violent nature of the job makes NFL players more violent than the average group of 1000 guys. so the #s are probably higher than the stats for the general population. | ||
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AgentW
United States7725 Posts
1. Paul George is an idiot. 2. Steve Smith doesn't sleep, he waits. | ||
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KelianQatar
303 Posts
On September 12 2014 03:24 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i think the violent nature of the job makes NFL players more violent than the average group of 1000 guys. so the #s are probably higher than the stats for the general population. I agree Raynor, like that article from CNN stated-- "...Domestic violence now seems to be the football league's No. 1 off-field issue." the NFL is a bunch of bullshitters who could care less about women's issues in particular and social issues in general http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/10/report-law-enforcement-sent-ray-rice-video-to-nfl-executive-months-ago/ | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
I didn't even know this was a thing and gave a decent chuckle at the coincidence. Probably a smart move to shelve it for the week though to not bring up any comparisons, and try to just let the game be a game(not that it couldn't be had this aired, but it probably would have been brought up). | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On September 12 2014 06:22 AgentW wrote: A couple of things: 1. Paul George is an idiot. 2. Steve Smith doesn't sleep, he waits. Steve Smith is such an angry dude, but when he plays with a chip on his shoulder, he's awesome. Bad ass little dudes are always fun to watch in sports. Just imagine what his stats would look like playing with Cam instead of DelHolme for all those years | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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HeadlessWonder
United States1096 Posts
On September 12 2014 07:35 QuanticHawk wrote: Steve Smith is such an angry dude, but when he plays with a chip on his shoulder, he's awesome. Bad ass little dudes are always fun to watch in sports. Just imagine what his stats would look like playing with Cam instead of DelHolme for all those years Probably not too different. Nothing wrong with Jake Delhomme, and he never had a problem throwing the ball to Steve Smith over and over. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On September 12 2014 08:18 HeadlessWonder wrote: Probably not too different. Nothing wrong with Jake Delhomme, and he never had a problem throwing the ball to Steve Smith over and over. Outside of two years, Delhomme was garbage. | ||
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