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On March 06 2013 12:19 ZapRoffo wrote:
Random proposal in this light: For the big league/cup matches, the referee provisionally sends someone off, and in the next few minutes there's a backup referee that looks at it on video...
Counter-proposal: we adopt a more Roman system of justice which takes the characters of the players involved into account. Arbeloa gets kicked in the chest, it's a yellow card. Pepe gets kicked in the chest, and it's a foul going the other way. 
More seriously, I think that the problem isn't just that refereeing's hard, but also that there are referees who believe that the red card was deserved and referees who don't. A reviewing referee would provide a second opinion and might lessen the problem but wouldn't eliminate it.
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Having thought about it, it doesn't make sense to give it a red. I mean Crouchy in the last Stoke match knocked out a guy with a bicycle kick, how was that not technically 'dangerous play'? It's clear that the rules should require a level of mens rea for a red to be given. I think 90% of refs would have given a yellow or even maybe a caution. I don't ultimately agree with roy keane.
On March 06 2013 12:19 ZapRoffo wrote:
Random proposal in this light: For the big league/cup matches, the referee provisionally sends someone off, and in the next few minutes there's a backup referee that looks at it on video and can decide that it doesn't warrant a red and then the red card is not "complete" and the player can come back on and it's modified to a yellow. Or he does say it's a red card and it is completed and he stays sent off. I don't really see how that infringes the spirit of the game very much at all, it's just like moving the appeal process into a lot quicker action while the game can be salvaged.. The backup referee can even be in radio communication with the center, to clarify if anything else went into it like abusive language or whatever.
This is an incredibly good idea! The player could be 'sent off' to purgatory where they wait for a minute whilst the backup ref reviews it. If they know they have fucked up they can tell their manager who will start making preparations to change the team composition to play with 9 outfield players. If they are certain they will be exonerated, they will just wait patiently and the team with a player down will just have to play defensively for a little while. So sosoosossosososo much better than forcing an on the spot decision which can easily ruin the whole match.
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funny how everyone including mourinho, fergie and players hyped utd vs marid as the biggest match this season but its the red card that drew headlines. unfortunate.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
On March 06 2013 16:14 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
funny how everyone including mourinho, fergie and players hyped utd vs marid as the biggest match this season but its the red card that drew headlines. unfortunate.
Indeed this always happens. Take Real vs Barca games, normally what we discuss is a referee'n decision after it, not the match xD
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
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Extremely conflicted opinions about the red card in the Israeli sports forums, even some Real fans say that this is a sour victory and the red card is undeserved and Man Utd fans who say that Nani was an idiot.
I watched with few friends the game (2 Man Utd fans, myself Real Madrid fan, one neutral) and we all agreed that Nani did a foul that deserved a yellow, not a red.
It's unfortunate that the 2 teams had to meet in RO16, and my heart goes for Man Utd who played perfect right until the red card.
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Imo (and I'm a Barca fan, and Moudrid hater) the red card is justified. If Arbeloa jumps 20cm to the left he loses the ability to procreate, and if he doesn't jump at all he can be injured severely.
We should not think "he didn't get hurt, so it's not a red card", but "if he can get hurt, it's a red card", intentional foul or not.
But like many people said, it can also be a yellow because the rule isn't that clear. Everybody seems angry about these non precise rules, but if they were too precise (meaning, if the referee had no say in a decision, if he cannot take into account the 'situation') we would cry every week too. Van Persie's red card vs Barcelona was one of these: it's the rule. But you can cry because the rule is stupid. Like for the last defender thing in the box (Penalty + RED CARD!!)...
Concerning the game, Man U did very good until that red card, Madrid had no creativity or solution to score against a defense organized like this (now I remember all the 'tards saying that Barca has no plan B, Madrid is the incarnation of plan B and they did... nothing!). The card + Madrid's change to 3-5-2 destroyed Man U in 5 minutes. I would have loved to see what would have happened if they resisted a bit more, because it really seemed that the red card not only fucked them tactically but psychologically...
I really don't like Madrid's style (no gameplan), and I think Man U did really good tactically in both games (wait them and counter attack) because it pushed Madrid to play a game they don't like (organizing the game), BUT, I think Man U 'deserved' to be eliminated because they played like a small team with a budget of 20M£... Kind of like Chelsea last year vs Barca. They have Kagawa and ROONEY, a top 5 World player, ON THE BENCH. Even for a tactical decision... Play like a small team and you have every chance in the world to pay it someday...
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On March 06 2013 21:01 WillyWanker wrote:I think Man U 'deserved' to be eliminated because they played like a small team with a budget of 20M£...
Teams don't deserve anything for the style they adopt. If you wanted them to lose because they chose a more defensive approach (although Welbeck for Rooney isn't that), then say that. Don't hide behind dessert.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Completely disagree with the statement man utd played like a small team with no budget...In the first leg yes, they went there to get a drawn and try and get a goal.
At home, they played like a well oiled team should, good solid defensive unit and pace and passing prowess to damage on counters and hold the ball up.
Real played great at home and so shit away from home until Modric came on! If Modric started the game with how well he was playing Real Madrid would of won 2-1 easily.
Biggest mistake (after the referee red card mistake) was Fergie not reacting properly to going down to 10men. They were winning the game 1-0. 2-1 on aggregate, concede 1 goal and take it to extra time nps anything can happen then. What he needed to do was throw smalling on for Welbeck and shut up shop. Defend for their lives, if people say it was a shit game cuz of that, then fuck 'em blame the ref for ruining it. But he was so naive, they didn't change the way they played, kept trying to push people forward for another goal which was not needed! Fergie got to caught up in the moment and cost him a chance of defending that lead out.
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On March 06 2013 21:59 zf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 21:01 WillyWanker wrote:I think Man U 'deserved' to be eliminated because they played like a small team with a budget of 20M£... Teams don't deserve anything for the style they adopt. If you wanted them to lose because they chose a more defensive approach (although Welbeck for Rooney isn't that), then say that. Don't hide behind dessert.
It's why I put deserved in quotes. It's only my opinion! Teams that don't try to create goals don't, for me, deserve to win these kind of games. If it was Celtic, I would have said, ok it's their only option, but it's Man U, and they were playing at home.
I don't blame them for doing that in the Bernabeu, but at home having 35% possession with 11 players, and against a team like Madrid (who likes the ball but not like Barcelona for example), is a shame, FOR ME.
I was for MU yesterday, but you have to admit that when you put your defense in your own box, you're gonna pay it sooner or later. And again, FOR ME, it is not MU's standards to play at home like Granada would play in the New Camp...
You're gonna tell me they had Giggs, Welbeck and VP, but of course they're gonna have some players to score, but they spent most of their time defending.
Again, the tactic was probably the best since it's against a team that cannot create football, so I don't blame them. But it doesn't change the fact that, FOR ME, a team of MU's caliber, AT HOME, should play differently...
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On March 06 2013 22:26 WillyWanker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 21:59 zf wrote:On March 06 2013 21:01 WillyWanker wrote:I think Man U 'deserved' to be eliminated because they played like a small team with a budget of 20M£... Teams don't deserve anything for the style they adopt. If you wanted them to lose because they chose a more defensive approach (although Welbeck for Rooney isn't that), then say that. Don't hide behind dessert. It's why I put deserved in quotes. It's only my opinion! Teams that don't try to create goals don't, for me, deserve to win these kind of games. If it was Celtic, I would have said, ok it's their only option, but it's Man U, and they were playing at home. I don't blame them for doing that in the Bernabeu, but at home having 35% possession with 11 players, and against a team like Madrid (who likes the ball but not like Barcelona for example), is a shame, FOR ME. I was for MU yesterday, but you have to admit that when you put your defense in your own box, you're gonna pay it sooner or later. And again, FOR ME, it is not MU's standards to play at home like Granada would play in the New Camp... You're gonna tell me they had Giggs, Welbeck and VP, but of course they're gonna have some players to score, but they spent most of their time defending. Again, the tactic was probably the best since it's against a team that cannot create football, so I don't blame them. But it doesn't change the fact that, FOR ME, a team of MU's caliber, AT HOME, should play differently...
I have the exact same opinion, can't respect big teams with world class players playing like that, like chelsea last year.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
But thats your opinion though, Like it's your opinion that football is best played with passing the ball around for 90minutes not shooting. Your opinion 
My opinion, Mourinho style football is the best. Win, at all costs, ugly, good, whatever, just win. Of course, winning whilst passing the ball around having 70% possession is good, and some people like to watch that, no problem. But when you lose doing that, you can't blame the opposition all the time, or the referee, you have to look in the mirror as well xD
Chelsea last season played to their strength and won 2 cups, doing so. Chelsea this season average closer to 60% possession yet we probably will struggle to win any trophy this year!
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On March 06 2013 22:26 WillyWanker wrote:
It's why I put deserved in quotes. It's only my opinion! Teams that don't try to create goals don't, for me, deserve to win these kind of games. If it was Celtic, I would have said, ok it's their only option, but it's Man U, and they were playing at home.
I don't blame them for doing that in the Bernabeu, but at home having 35% possession with 11 players, and against a team like Madrid (who likes the ball but not like Barcelona for example), is a shame...
I see that you only meant it as an opinion. Sorry to criticize you. It annoys me when football fans use quasi-moral language to describe their tastes.
I enjoy games for different reasons, so I can't agree with you. Some of my favorite recent games have been "clashes of style" (e.g. United v. Barca, Barca v. Inter, Chelsea v. Barca and Bayern, etc.).
That aside, I don't think it's fair to say that United didn't or didn't try to create chances. United had 20 shots to Madrid's 22, and 13 of those shots were from open play. United lost because Modric scored a great goal and because Lopez's reflexes were better than their finishing.
On March 06 2013 22:40 Pandemona wrote:But thats your opinion though, Like it's your opinion that football is best played with passing the ball around for 90minutes not shooting. Your opinion
I like you. Someone's gotta stand up for organization and discipline against all the tikki takka fans.
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Insanity from continental viewers. I can't believe a barca fan like wanker has never seen someone control the ball from the air with their foot. It's always difficult for engish teams to deal with the 12th man spanish teams always get.
http://www.sportsbet.com.au/blog/home/money-back-on-man-united-justice-refund#.UTd6taXvuSp
United played an amazing game for 56 minutes. To complain that it wasn't tikki taka is insane. Can't wait to see financial fairplay laws possible begin to level the playing field but as with all things spanish in football that's unlikely. On the plus side, if Spain's banking system fails so do their clubs with their shady financing. almost can't believe UEFA is gonna try and sweep this under the rug.
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The reactions to the RM-MU are really biased though (in the media in particular). In leg one Welbeck scored on what shouldn't have been a corner. In leg two, Van Persie was offside leading to the own goal pretty clearly. There wasn't even one replay on the broadcast to look at that possible offside again, 0 pundits mentioned it, even though while I was watching live, I immediately said "offside" and then was really surprised when the goal went through and then no one said a word. Now looking at it this way, United scored 0 legit goals in the tie. But the media twists it so all the outrage is against Man U.
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On March 07 2013 02:26 ZapRoffo wrote:
The reactions to the RM-MU are really biased though (in the media in particular). In leg one Welbeck scored on what shouldn't have been a corner. In leg two, Van Persie was offside leading to the own goal pretty clearly. There wasn't even one replay on the broadcast to look at that possible offside again, 0 pundits mentioned it, even though while I was watching live, I immediately said "offside" and then was really surprised when the goal went through and then no one said a word. Now looking at it this way, United scored 0 legit goals in the tie. But the media twists it so all the outrage is against Man U.
That's... an interesting interpretation of reality.
+ Show Spoiler +AC Milan’s Kevin-Prince Boateng (@KPBofficial) can’t believe Nani’s red card: “How can you give a red card for that??? Is he serious….??? That’s sad killing a big game like that… #ManUvRealM” Manchester City captain Vincent Kompany (@VincentKompany) disagrees with the referee’s decision: “Never a red card.” Norwich midfielder Anthony Pilkington (@Pilkington_11) reckons the official is an attention seeker: “What is the ref doing!!? This clown loves a red card!! Why do some referees think the games about them!! #headsgone” Dutch legend Ruud Gullit (@GullitR) says the game has been ruined: “ Unbelievably bad decision by the ref. The red card changed the whole game for #manchesterunited…” Chris Samba (@cs4christsamba1) agrees with Gullit: “Changed the whole game, Real Madrid are putting some real pressure on.” Spurs youth star Alex Pritchard (@pritch_93) is delighted for his former team-mate: “Luka buzzing for him!!!!!!!” Southampton’s Luke Shaw (@Luke_shaw3) reckons the Croatian midfielder has made a telling impact: “What a goal, since he has been on, he has changed the game for Madrid!” City defender Joleon Lescott (@JoleonLescott) wants Ronaldo to celebrate after scoring: “Don’t apologise cause you’re not sorry. #CR7” Marseille midfielder Joey Barton (@Joey7Barton) reckons he can see a tear in Ronaldo’s eye: “Was Ronaldo crying then? Seriously, am sure he was crying two minutes after he scored. Was I seeing things?” Reading striker Jason Roberts (@JasonRoberts30) says there is no doubt it wasn’t a red card: “Some people may not like United..or are supporting Real or whatever..but..if you think that’s a red you need to give your head a shake…” Arsenal fan Piers Morgan (@piersmorgan) is in a joyful mood on Twitter – for once: “Van Pursestrings doing a lot of air-shots tonight. He does realise you have to connect with the ball, right?” Ex-Liverpool defender Neil Ruddock (@RealRazor) is looking forward to Sir Alex Ferguson’s post-match interview: “Watching this game to the end Fergie will be fuming, could come on the pitch I reckon!!!” West Brom goalkeeper Ben Foster (@BenFoster) will be kept waiting as an enraged Ferguson refuses to speak to the media: “This post-match interview will be interesting….#robbed” QPR striker Jay Bothroyd (@jaybothroyd) reckons José Mourinho is vying for the United job: “Mourinho is definitely the next Man Utd manager I think ..” Roy Keane says the referee was right to send off Nani, and England cricket star Alex Hales (@AlexHales1) won’t be disagreeing with the former United captain: “I’m not arguing with Keane, if he says the sky is pink, it’s pink! #cannon” Finally, Gareth Bale (@GarethBale11) reckons his former Spurs team-mate made the difference: “Harsh on United. Thought Modric made the difference when he came on. Giggs 1000 games… #legend” https://twitter.com/Denise_1305/status/309222315521097728/photo/1Now I just need to add David Moyes' opinion.
ABU's could have decency for the integrity of the game but whatever.
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On March 07 2013 02:31 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 02:26 ZapRoffo wrote:
The reactions to the RM-MU are really biased though (in the media in particular). In leg one Welbeck scored on what shouldn't have been a corner. In leg two, Van Persie was offside leading to the own goal pretty clearly. There wasn't even one replay on the broadcast to look at that possible offside again, 0 pundits mentioned it, even though while I was watching live, I immediately said "offside" and then was really surprised when the goal went through and then no one said a word. Now looking at it this way, United scored 0 legit goals in the tie. But the media twists it so all the outrage is against Man U.
That's... an interesting interpretation of reality. + Show Spoiler +AC Milan’s Kevin-Prince Boateng (@KPBofficial) can’t believe Nani’s red card: “How can you give a red card for that??? Is he serious….??? That’s sad killing a big game like that… #ManUvRealM” Manchester City captain Vincent Kompany (@VincentKompany) disagrees with the referee’s decision: “Never a red card.” Norwich midfielder Anthony Pilkington (@Pilkington_11) reckons the official is an attention seeker: “What is the ref doing!!? This clown loves a red card!! Why do some referees think the games about them!! #headsgone” Dutch legend Ruud Gullit (@GullitR) says the game has been ruined: “ Unbelievably bad decision by the ref. The red card changed the whole game for #manchesterunited…” Chris Samba (@cs4christsamba1) agrees with Gullit: “Changed the whole game, Real Madrid are putting some real pressure on.” Spurs youth star Alex Pritchard (@pritch_93) is delighted for his former team-mate: “Luka buzzing for him!!!!!!!” Southampton’s Luke Shaw (@Luke_shaw3) reckons the Croatian midfielder has made a telling impact: “What a goal, since he has been on, he has changed the game for Madrid!” City defender Joleon Lescott (@JoleonLescott) wants Ronaldo to celebrate after scoring: “Don’t apologise cause you’re not sorry. #CR7” Marseille midfielder Joey Barton (@Joey7Barton) reckons he can see a tear in Ronaldo’s eye: “Was Ronaldo crying then? Seriously, am sure he was crying two minutes after he scored. Was I seeing things?” Reading striker Jason Roberts (@JasonRoberts30) says there is no doubt it wasn’t a red card: “Some people may not like United..or are supporting Real or whatever..but..if you think that’s a red you need to give your head a shake…” Arsenal fan Piers Morgan (@piersmorgan) is in a joyful mood on Twitter – for once: “Van Pursestrings doing a lot of air-shots tonight. He does realise you have to connect with the ball, right?” Ex-Liverpool defender Neil Ruddock (@RealRazor) is looking forward to Sir Alex Ferguson’s post-match interview: “Watching this game to the end Fergie will be fuming, could come on the pitch I reckon!!!” West Brom goalkeeper Ben Foster (@BenFoster) will be kept waiting as an enraged Ferguson refuses to speak to the media: “This post-match interview will be interesting….#robbed” QPR striker Jay Bothroyd (@jaybothroyd) reckons José Mourinho is vying for the United job: “Mourinho is definitely the next Man Utd manager I think ..” Roy Keane says the referee was right to send off Nani, and England cricket star Alex Hales (@AlexHales1) won’t be disagreeing with the former United captain: “I’m not arguing with Keane, if he says the sky is pink, it’s pink! #cannon” Finally, Gareth Bale (@GarethBale11) reckons his former Spurs team-mate made the difference: “Harsh on United. Thought Modric made the difference when he came on. Giggs 1000 games… #legend” https://twitter.com/Denise_1305/status/309222315521097728/photo/1Now I just need to add David Moyes' opinion. ABU's could have decency for the integrity of the game but whatever.
Care to elaborate on what's interesting about it?
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3-1 for psg tonight,lucas/lavezzi are going to tear the defense apart.motta/thiago silva are back,cant see us letting them score more than once.
watch out for those lightning fast counter attacks valencia!wouldnt be surprised with a 60+% ball possession for valencia,nobody figured out you just have to give the ball to psg the whole game and theyve got no idea what to do with it.
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On March 07 2013 02:26 ZapRoffo wrote:
The reactions to the RM-MU are really biased though (in the media in particular). In leg one Welbeck scored on what shouldn't have been a corner. In leg two, Van Persie was offside leading to the own goal pretty clearly. There wasn't even one replay on the broadcast to look at that possible offside again, 0 pundits mentioned it, even though while I was watching live, I immediately said "offside" and then was really surprised when the goal went through and then no one said a word. Now looking at it this way, United scored 0 legit goals in the tie. But the media twists it so all the outrage is against Man U.
Well in the German broadcast they showed that it was in fact offside.
You mean Real/the ref in your last sentence don't you?
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On March 07 2013 03:03 Da-Muffinman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 02:26 ZapRoffo wrote:
The reactions to the RM-MU are really biased though (in the media in particular). In leg one Welbeck scored on what shouldn't have been a corner. In leg two, Van Persie was offside leading to the own goal pretty clearly. There wasn't even one replay on the broadcast to look at that possible offside again, 0 pundits mentioned it, even though while I was watching live, I immediately said "offside" and then was really surprised when the goal went through and then no one said a word. Now looking at it this way, United scored 0 legit goals in the tie. But the media twists it so all the outrage is against Man U.
Well in the German broadcast they showed that it was in fact offside. You mean Real/the ref in your last sentence don't you?
Yeah, oops, I meant all the outrageous stuff happened against Man U.
I don't doubt the German media was a lot better on this than the British/American (which is basically an arm of the British).
Also on that point (talking American Fox Soccer broadcast), in this thread I remember people saying Gus Johnson should be sacked--I could not disagree more. He was doing his job, asking a maybe slightly stupid plant question for the color commentator to go into discussion about, wondering if in retrospect, what happens if they start Rooney instead. Warren Barton was the one that put in a shameful, gross performance, whining about one call for the entire rest of the game, like 35 solid minutes of whining. Even knowing he's in the booth with a relative newcomer to the game, he left the game entirely on Gus's shoulders so he could whine instead of analyze. I'm sure Gus asks a question like that to try to get the focus on something different than sour grapes about the call, but then in response, Warren's like nope, it's all about that call. Thank you Warren Barton, you really made it a pleasant game to watch.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/50050.png)
Celtic vs Juventus![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/50139.png)
![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/52268.png)
Valencia vs PSG![[image loading]](http://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/teams/logos/32x32/52747.png)
