On October 18 2012 19:22 Vernom wrote: I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
He wasn't punished for the same thing though.
Terry and Ferdinand case.
I know what case you mean. Terry wasn't charged with racial abuse. So he never got a 'lighter punishment' because he is english. He got a different punishment because he was charged with a different thing.
Terry acknowledged he insulted to Ferdinand and said things like nigger but he refused that had a racist context.
Hypocresy much?
Are you trolling? You clearly know nothing about the case
On October 18 2012 21:28 Telcontar wrote:
On October 18 2012 20:47 Stimp wrote:
On October 18 2012 20:32 Vernom wrote:
On October 18 2012 19:26 Stimp wrote:
On October 18 2012 19:22 Vernom wrote: I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
He wasn't punished for the same thing though.
Terry and Ferdinand case.
I know what case you mean. Terry wasn't charged with racial abuse. So he never got a 'lighter punishment' because he is english. He got a different punishment because he was charged with a different thing.
Then the very act of charging him with a lesser offence is discriminatory. Both used racially derogatory terms against the other player, but somehow Suarez got a much harsher punishment.
No. Saying it multiple times to incite an opponent and admitting to it is different to using a term to deny racially abusing someone.
Do you guys know the facts of the cases? They are not nearly the same at all.
You do realise that the word negrito is common lingo and to my knowledge in no way derogatory in latin and South America. Terry on the other hand likely used words that we all know very well are not ok.
I mean I couldnt give two shits. Using that language doesnt make people racist. It just means they got hot headed and said something to get in the other guys skin.
I dont have a problem believing that someone of JT's character off the field would do something like that. John Terry the football is massive. But the guy can fuck his friends partner. Pretty sure using racist expletives arent beyond him.
You can spin it however you want and talk about facts but at the end of it they both used language that they probably knew (Suarez less so) is often used in racist jargon. And in the current social climate thats not ok. And knowing that is the case and still doing it means they are both cunts. Very good footballers, but they are still stupid cunts.
And one cunt got fucked harder than the other one. Hell one didnt even get charged for it.
If Suarez had a competent lawyer he wouldn't have got it so bad, because of the latin lingo.
But the point is, the FA punished one for racial abuse, terry for verbal abuse. It is not different punishments for the same crime. Slice it any way you want, there was no lighter sentence because one is english. The whole finer points of the cases can be discussed infinitum but in the end, terry didn't get a lighter sentence because he is english. He also never admitted to repeatedly calling someone a 'ni**er', as the guy who is making the accusation is saying, proving that he doesn't even know what he is talking about when making such ridiculous claims.
'Say whatever you want' is a great argument though. Guess england punish foreigners harder because... he says so.
In the meanwhile, no one cares that cole gets a 90k fine for calling the fa twats for pretty much saying he lied under oath in court while ferdinand got 45k for agreeing with someone calling cole a choc ice which is arguably a worse racial offence than terry was accused of.
Ferdinand and Ashley Cole are pretty big cunts to. Ferdinand is a third rate footballer who got uppity about language that probably gets thrown around more often than you think. That still doesnt change the fact that JT got of easy compared to Suarez. If Suarez had a better lawyer then the "facts" of the case would have changed ? Not really. Im pretty sure neither you nor I are smarter than his lawyer.
Terry got away with doing the same thing Luis Suarez did. He got away with it because the English like to believe that racism isnt a problem in England and an Englishman doing it would clearly make it otherwise. So lets call it "verbal" abuse (because frankly thats really what it was, but people wont buy the "look he said it, but he didnt mean it" arguement) and punish him, cuz well yeah it was a dick move.
But throw the book at the other guy ? Cuz them South Americans ? They some real racist pigs.
John Terry denied he was doing it that totally means he didnt do it. Cool beans, problem solved. Wrong.
I dont buy it.
Discussing what is a worse offense is besides the point. Whatever Suarez said was in no way more racist than what JT did. And Suarez has idiocy on his side and JT knows better. Ferdinand as shit a footballer as he is, probably wasnt just "hearing things".
On October 19 2012 01:40 Rebs wrote: Terry got away with doing the same thing Luis Suarez did. He got away with it because the English like to believe that racism isnt a problem in England and an Englishman doing it would clearly make it otherwise. So lets call it "verbal" abuse (because frankly thats really what it was) and punish him, cuz well yeah it was a dick move.
But throw the book at the other guy. I dont buy it.
Discussing what is a worse offense is besides the point. Whatever Suarez said was in no way more racist than what JT did. And Suarez has idiocy on his side and JT knows better. Ferdinand as shit a footballer as he is, probably wasnt just "hearing things".
I don't see how you can say the english was on Terry's side. They dragged it to court, when the court cleared him, they changed their rules and charged him with something else, tip toeing around actually using the words 'racially abused'.
Also, how can you come to the conclusion they did the same thing? Terry claims (and can't be proved wrong) that he was questioning an allegation while suarez admits to repeatedly making reference to evras race. Ferdinand as far as I know never has actually admitted to hearing what JT said. He does admit that they spoke after the game and all was fine. Suddenly a weak later he wants to complain about the thing he never heard.
edit for your edit about "John Terry denying meaning he didn't". He fought it in court, and was found not guilty. Is a courts ruling not good enough?
Really dunno how anyone can think Terry is getting off lightly. He has gotten pretty much the largest punishment they could possibly make up for him.
On October 18 2012 03:49 Vernom wrote: Well, dunno about Serbia vs England but England is full of shit on racism.
I remember the case with Henry and Luis Aragones+Cesc and the one with Luis Suarez and Evra.
So you are saying that they claim racism when there isnt any orrr ?
Bingo.
Kids in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
EDIT:
You can clearly hear the monkey chants when Danny Rose is leaving the field in this video. It was going on throughout the game. Absolute disgrace.
I said I don't know about Serbia vs England, but there wasn't any racism in Henry vs Luis Aragones by example, your english newspapers are full of bullshit and you believe them, or you are a bunch of hypocrites.
I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
So Terry got a smaller ban than Suarez because he's English? You do realize that you could make the opposite (but still just as terrible) argument using the victims' nationalities, right? Suarez got 8 games for racially abusing a French person, and Terry got 4 for abusing an English person. Clearly this is discrimination against the English!
On a more serious note, the video here is very damning. Serbia's denial looks silly when its own fans are uploading videos of the incidents.
Luis Suarez (uruguay) to black guy = 8 games punishment Terry (England) to black guy = 4 games punishment
And we can say Luis Suarez was lucky still, he would receive 20 games punishment if Patrick Evra (black guy) was from England.
I said I don't know about Serbia vs England, but there wasn't any racism in Henry vs Luis Aragones by example, your english newspapers are full of bullshit and you believe them, or you are a bunch of hypocrites.
I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
So Terry got a smaller ban than Suarez because he's English? You do realize that you could make the opposite (but still just as terrible) argument using the victims' nationalities, right? Suarez got 8 games for racially abusing a French person, and Terry got 4 for abusing an English person. Clearly this is discrimination against the English!
On a more serious note, the video here is very damning. Serbia's denial looks silly when its own fans are uploading videos of the incidents.
Luis Suarez (uruguay) to black guy = 8 games punishment Terry (England) to black guy = 4 games punishment
And we can say Luis Suarez was lucky still, he would receive 20 games punishment if Patrick Evra (black guy) was from England.
Luis Suarez to Patrice Evra (France) = 8 game ban John Terry to Anton Ferdinand (England) = 4 game ban
See how stupid that sounds? You have no proof that the numbers are related in any way to nationality. I hate John Terry but he didn't get a lighter punishment by being English. They actually tried (and failed) to prosecute him in court, which is much more serious than an FA ban.
Also, let's not forget the Spanish FA's view on things.
I said I don't know about Serbia vs England, but there wasn't any racism in Henry vs Luis Aragones by example, your english newspapers are full of bullshit and you believe them, or you are a bunch of hypocrites.
I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
So Terry got a smaller ban than Suarez because he's English? You do realize that you could make the opposite (but still just as terrible) argument using the victims' nationalities, right? Suarez got 8 games for racially abusing a French person, and Terry got 4 for abusing an English person. Clearly this is discrimination against the English!
On a more serious note, the video here is very damning. Serbia's denial looks silly when its own fans are uploading videos of the incidents.
Luis Suarez (uruguay) to black guy = 8 games punishment Terry (England) to black guy = 4 games punishment
And we can say Luis Suarez was lucky still, he would receive 20 games punishment if Patrick Evra (black guy) was from England.
Luis Suarez to Patrice Evra (France) = 8 game ban John Terry to Anton Ferdinand (England) = 4 game ban
See how stupid that sounds? You have no proof that the numbers are related in any way to nationality. I hate John Terry but he didn't get a lighter punishment by being English. They actually tried (and failed) to prosecute him in court, which is much more serious than an FA ban.
Also, let's not forget the Spanish FA's view on things.
Keep on dodging the arguments.
You are defending english FA's decisions, I dont defend spanish FA's decisions, so what?
English and spanish FA are bullshit, you have to start to accept that.
Problem with spanish racism is they are from 5% or less fans, some teams started to prosecute them like Barcelona did when Laporta was the president.
But english people is being ridiculous when claiming racism because they don't understand a context from our language (luis aragones and henry by example, Im not defending the stupid spanish fans who say intended racist words). And the worst is english FA not being fair with each case because of nationality (england players are favored).
On October 19 2012 01:40 Rebs wrote: Terry got away with doing the same thing Luis Suarez did. He got away with it because the English like to believe that racism isnt a problem in England and an Englishman doing it would clearly make it otherwise. So lets call it "verbal" abuse (because frankly thats really what it was) and punish him, cuz well yeah it was a dick move.
But throw the book at the other guy. I dont buy it.
Discussing what is a worse offense is besides the point. Whatever Suarez said was in no way more racist than what JT did. And Suarez has idiocy on his side and JT knows better. Ferdinand as shit a footballer as he is, probably wasnt just "hearing things".
I don't see how you can say the english was on Terry's side. They dragged it to court, when the court cleared him, they changed their rules and charged him with something else, tip toeing around actually using the words 'racially abused'.
Also, how can you come to the conclusion they did the same thing? Terry claims (and can't be proved wrong) that he was questioning an allegation while suarez admits to repeatedly making reference to evras race. Ferdinand as far as I know never has actually admitted to hearing what JT said. He does admit that they spoke after the game and all was fine. Suddenly a weak later he wants to complain about the thing he never heard.
edit for your edit about "John Terry denying meaning he didn't". He fought it in court, and was found not guilty. Is a courts ruling not good enough?
Really dunno how anyone can think Terry is getting off lightly. He has gotten pretty much the largest punishment they could possibly make up for him.
Whether John Terry himself was favored or not I couldnt care less. Fact is the Englishman was favored because an Englishmen being found guilty of racism would induce a shit storm. And would become an easy thing for activists to point to all the time. The Jason Roberts's, the Defoes , The Eto'os and so on.
And tbh that is probably the better sense.
I genuinely believe that the racism in the English game doesnt exist in a legitimite sense. Part of it is race becoming a contentious issue even when race related comments are quite clearly not meant to be taken personally. I would say perhaps there should be some thicker skin on the sports field related to this stuff but thats not my place to say. I cannot impose how I feel about something on others. The current social climate does not take these things lightly, especially in the circumstances they were made.
To that end John Terry is a stupid cunt who while probably not meaningfully still used language that would upset those of color. And I bet he does it all the time, not because hes racist but because its a convenient way to disrespect someone, its just an insult for the sake of insulting someone. And thats how the F.A chose to treat him.
But they did not do that for Suarez. So Terry says "I didnt do it, you gotta believe me" I didnt use racial abuse. I just used abuse.
Suarez says, "Mannn we use the word negrito for stuff like coffee or the color of my phone" let alone Black people and he gets an 8 match ban ? Calling someone black has never been a serious insult unless within context. It is very specific language that upsets people as racist language regardless of context. We all know what that is Suarez didnt exactly admit to using that particular kind of language either, I doubt he even knows it.
It is pretty obvious JT said something like that and its not like Ferdinand is an angel but when you are going to set laws for something and prohibit it. Dont chicken out when you have to punish one of your own or atleast show some consistency in dealing with it if that chickening out serves a better purpose.
You make a big assumption on the part of Terry's character there. If it happens all the time, why is there only 1 documented case?
And I understand the negrito thing, its not racist, in his home country. In england they just don't like you referring to someones skin colour regardless if that is how you are identifying them or not. I think its silly anyway, in my country the ferdinands would not even be considered as black.
The FA never 'chickened out'. He was cleared in court. By their own rules they can't find him guilty of what a higher court found him not guilty. So they hit him with the worst on the closest charge to it. Maybe if they didn't hand it over to the police they could have made their example needing a lower burdern of proof, but they didn't.
I said I don't know about Serbia vs England, but there wasn't any racism in Henry vs Luis Aragones by example, your english newspapers are full of bullshit and you believe them, or you are a bunch of hypocrites.
I dont need to remember the case of Luis Suarez, he received a big punishment when a english player was accused of the same and he received a much smaller punishment...
So Terry got a smaller ban than Suarez because he's English? You do realize that you could make the opposite (but still just as terrible) argument using the victims' nationalities, right? Suarez got 8 games for racially abusing a French person, and Terry got 4 for abusing an English person. Clearly this is discrimination against the English!
On a more serious note, the video here is very damning. Serbia's denial looks silly when its own fans are uploading videos of the incidents.
Luis Suarez (uruguay) to black guy = 8 games punishment Terry (England) to black guy = 4 games punishment
And we can say Luis Suarez was lucky still, he would receive 20 games punishment if Patrick Evra (black guy) was from England.
Luis Suarez to Patrice Evra (France) = 8 game ban John Terry to Anton Ferdinand (England) = 4 game ban
See how stupid that sounds? You have no proof that the numbers are related in any way to nationality. I hate John Terry but he didn't get a lighter punishment by being English. They actually tried (and failed) to prosecute him in court, which is much more serious than an FA ban.
Also, let's not forget the Spanish FA's view on things.
Keep on dodging the arguments.
You are defending english FA's decisions, I dont defend spanish FA's decisions, so what?
English and spanish FA are bullshit, you have to start to accept that.
Problem with spanish racism is they are from 5% or less fans, some teams started to prosecute them like Barcelona did when Laporta was the president.
But english people is being ridiculous when claiming racism because they don't understand a context from our language (luis aragones and henry by example, Im not defending the stupid spanish fans who say intended racist words). And the worst is english FA not being fair with each case because of nationality (england players are favored).
What? I'm not defending the FA's decisions. My point is that the Suarez and Terry cases were very different, with different amounts of evidence, so comparing the two is stupid. If anything, Terry was treated more harshly because they hit him with criminal prosecution, and he was effectively forced out of the England squad forever.
If you want to point out inconsistencies in England, look at the diving issue instead. Suarez got savaged by the media for the dive against Stoke while Bale received almost no negative attention for an even more disgraceful one vs. Aston Villa, followed by a dubious penalty vs. Scotland.
On October 19 2012 04:43 Stimp wrote: You make a big assumption on the part of Terry's character there. If it happens all the time, why is there only 1 documented case?
And I understand the negrito thing, its not racist, in his home country. In england they just don't like you referring to someones skin colour regardless if that is how you are identifying them or not. I think its silly anyway, in my country the ferdinands would not even be considered as black.
The FA never 'chickened out'. He was cleared in court. By their own rules they can't find him guilty of what a higher court found him not guilty. So they hit him with the worst on the closest charge to it. Maybe if they didn't hand it over to the police they could have made their example needing a lower burdern of proof, but they didn't.
Can someone tell me why news sites are saying the ban was for infact "racial abuse". My understanding was it isnt but this same thing is being reported in most of the pieces related to Bernsteins comment..
On October 20 2012 00:23 Sated wrote: Terry received a lesser sentence because the FA cannot prove that Terry was using a racist term in an offensive manner, only that he used an offensive term. We also shouldn't forget that, although the ban was shorter, he received a larger fine. Equally, this case has caused Terry to be exiled from the England squad, which he was also captain of at the time, and that may have factored into the severity of the ban/fine handed out.
The FA definitely needs to set a strict level of punishment in future cases and I'm sure they'll do that in the future. I personally feel that Terry's ban was indeed too short, but I don't think it had anything to do with Suarez being Uruguayan; it was to do with the level of evidence, the number of incidents and the severity/intention of the words used. In one case the FA was able to prove a lot more than they were in the other.
EDIT:
@Rebs: Which of these do you think it more insulting to a black player?
On October 19 2012 04:43 Stimp wrote: You make a big assumption on the part of Terry's character there. If it happens all the time, why is there only 1 documented case?
And I understand the negrito thing, its not racist, in his home country. In england they just don't like you referring to someones skin colour regardless if that is how you are identifying them or not. I think its silly anyway, in my country the ferdinands would not even be considered as black.
The FA never 'chickened out'. He was cleared in court. By their own rules they can't find him guilty of what a higher court found him not guilty. So they hit him with the worst on the closest charge to it. Maybe if they didn't hand it over to the police they could have made their example needing a lower burdern of proof, but they didn't.
Can someone tell me why news sites are saying the ban was for infact "racial abuse". My understanding was it isnt but this same thing is being reported in most of the pieces related to Bernsteins comment..
News sites say what they want and what will attract views. The wording goes something like:
the FA's disciplinary hearing found him guilty of "using abusive language" towards QPR's Anton Ferdinand last October which "included a reference to colour and/or race".
The FA report also included a paragraph dedicated to confirming that JT is NOT a racist. But media apparently don't need to report facts.
On October 19 2012 04:43 Stimp wrote: You make a big assumption on the part of Terry's character there. If it happens all the time, why is there only 1 documented case?
And I understand the negrito thing, its not racist, in his home country. In england they just don't like you referring to someones skin colour regardless if that is how you are identifying them or not. I think its silly anyway, in my country the ferdinands would not even be considered as black.
The FA never 'chickened out'. He was cleared in court. By their own rules they can't find him guilty of what a higher court found him not guilty. So they hit him with the worst on the closest charge to it. Maybe if they didn't hand it over to the police they could have made their example needing a lower burdern of proof, but they didn't.
Can someone tell me why news sites are saying the ban was for infact "racial abuse". My understanding was it isnt but this same thing is being reported in most of the pieces related to Bernsteins comment..
News sites say what they want and what will attract views. The wording goes something like:
the FA's disciplinary hearing found him guilty of "using abusive language" towards QPR's Anton Ferdinand last October which "included a reference to colour and/or race".
The FA report also included a paragraph dedicated to confirming that JT is NOT a racist. But media apparently don't need to report facts.
Ok so JT is not a racist (sure I have no problem believing that. I dont think he is even remotely racist.)
What hes charged with sounds like race related abuse to me. Its just a spin on the semantics. I agree its an insult for insults sake sure, but the wrong kind.
Players curse at each other like its nobodies business on the field all the time. JT going to court over that would be absurd.
And OMG JT got fined a couple of weeks wages. That must really stink.. Game bans are significantly more telling and we all know that.
Yeah and he got 4, for saying some naughty words. As I said, the fa had to bend their own rules and try and charge him with something that sounded like racial abuse but wasn't. But to say he was found guilty of racial abuse is wrong. They called the club secretary a liar, and also insinuated that cole lied in court to come to their conclusion. They also used that barcelona game to come to some contrived conclusion about terry on the pitch. All so they can charge him with insulting someone (Who had spent the whole game elbowing and winding him up), putting that little reference to race even though JT was acquitted in court because no one can prove his story wrong.
He went to court because they didn't think his story was true, about him questioning an allegation. He gets found not guilty and the FA step in and decide well, they think he is guilty based on the rules they just changed and these documents they 'found' and how they just don't want to believe coles story so they'll ignore it. Then they give him a massive charge for ... using harsh language. Ferdinand gets not charge, can't charge him because we don't want to upsest anyone. The fa comes out and says they have a high standard for captains and language wont be tolerated (referencing cole), then turn around and make rooney captain. A guy who swore into a television camera and booed englands own fans. Meanwhile this is all going on, they slip a manchester united board member as vice chairman of the FA. It's a corrupt mickey mouse organisation that has no clue what they are doing, making it up as they go along and is why this whole thing has been going on for over a year.
Interesting enough though, JT's charge was almost exactly what rio ferdinands read for retweeting the choc ice comment. Rio got 45k fine, Terry got 4 games and 220k. Cole got 90k for calling the fa 'twats'. Cole is called to be dropped from england, rio touted to come back into the england squad even though no england manager wants to touch the shit stirring twat, never mind him being past it on the pitch.
EPT
