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So I bet you guys could help me out, I recently had an overuse injury of my foot (described here) but this is the short version: at home I ran ~6 miles/week at most on fairly soft surfaces, when I came to school (first week of September) I wasn't able to lift due to a shoulder injury, so I took up running much more vigorously, and over the course of September worked up to doing ~11 miles per week (across only 3 running days) running purely on concrete. Foot hurt for a couple weeks, feeling pretty much better now
My question is, how should I work back into running? Does this seem like a good idea:
Rest it for another full week, then begin doing some runs outside just in grassy field type areas, I was gonna start with 10 minute runs, and work back (ideally fairly quickly) to at least 25 minute runs (I was doing ~30 minute runs before) and then I was gonna move to the track and start at 10 minute runs again and progress back to 25, then I was gonna hit the concrete again and start back at 10 yet again, and do that only add 10% per week thing back up to where I was hopefully 
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don't worry guys i haven't forgotten you lot, i've been mega busy with uni and stuff, and i probably have slacked on my training, that said, my race is tomorrow.
Right now im in the phase where i'm just eating copious amounts of carbs to get myself ready, any last minute tips for breakfast tomorrow, my race is at 9:30am so i'm going to wake around 6:30-7 so i'm suffiecently awake and energetic by the time it starts.
in all honesty, i can see my self falling short of the marathon time goal, but realistically, i don't have any choice but go out there and give it my fucking all, i'm going to run easy and long for the first half just to get into it, hopefully push as close to 8 minute miles as i can, and hopefully i will get dragged by my body towards the finish, because i always seem to find some strength somewhere when i'm on a long run towards the end, overall i'm pretty nervous, but given good nutrition and stuff i should be ok to go, also what do i need to eat on my race, i was just gonna go for bananas and water, any other good ideas?
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I did 8 and 10 miles during the past week. I feel that I can keep a decent pace for pretty much as long as my body completely runs out of fuel, but this race is supposed to be rather hilly especially in the beginning, so I'll have to pace myself.
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On October 12 2012 13:31 GuiltyJerk wrote:So I bet you guys could help me out, I recently had an overuse injury of my foot (described here) but this is the short version: at home I ran ~6 miles/week at most on fairly soft surfaces, when I came to school (first week of September) I wasn't able to lift due to a shoulder injury, so I took up running much more vigorously, and over the course of September worked up to doing ~11 miles per week (across only 3 running days) running purely on concrete. Foot hurt for a couple weeks, feeling pretty much better now My question is, how should I work back into running? Does this seem like a good idea: Rest it for another full week, then begin doing some runs outside just in grassy field type areas, I was gonna start with 10 minute runs, and work back (ideally fairly quickly) to at least 25 minute runs (I was doing ~30 minute runs before) and then I was gonna move to the track and start at 10 minute runs again and progress back to 25, then I was gonna hit the concrete again and start back at 10 yet again, and do that only add 10% per week thing back up to where I was hopefully
Well, if your getting injured on 10mpw or so obviously there isn't alot of wiggle room to work with. First thing I would check if your intensity, make sure your not killing runs and running at a pretty easy pace.
Then I would try softer surfaces. Maybe even do run/walk for a while, gradually increasing the run portions until their is no walking left. It gives your body some rest between the run segments to take the stress off and adapt to it.
Best thing you can do though is try to figure out exactly what caused the pain, and as you can take the correct preventative action to keep the injury from returning.
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Right now im in the phase where i'm just eating copious amounts of carbs to get myself ready, any last minute tips for breakfast tomorrow, m
Don't go too crazy with the eating, especially the day before as you'll end up feeling bloated, and more importantly you can wind up with GI issues on the course, and having to take 10+ minute bathroom breaks is obviously a time killer.
y race is at 9:30am so i'm going to wake around 6:30-7 so i'm suffiecently awake and energetic by the time it starts.
Yea, that is a good plan. For warm-up you don't need to do much more than maybe a half mile of jogging and a few strides/dynamic stretching. In a marathon you just use the first mile or two to loosen up and get going.
i'm going to run easy and long for the first half just to get into it, hopefully push as close to 8 minute miles as i can, and hopefully i will get dragged by my body towards the finish, because i always seem to find some strength somewhere when i'm on a long run towards the end
This is a good plan to have. You don't have to go out at 8:45 pace or something like that, but especially in the first 4-5 minutes I would strongly recommend going out at a pace that feels WAY easier than what you think you need to do. Between race day adrenaline, everyone starting out, etc. it's really easy to blow open a 6:xx first mile when you planned on an 8, and that can really jeopardize your race. For the first couple minutes I'd go out at something that feels like a 9 minute pace (you'll probably run low 8s doing this) then after that evaluate and settle in at a pace that is on the easier side of what you plan on doing.
If your feeling strong at halfway you can start to ramp it, but its gotta be subtle. If your running a good race chances are you will feel pretty good at halfway and if you really stomp the gas there you WILL tank your race. When you get to the final 5-8k that's where you can really start to push if you have anything left.
Especially for a first marathon conservative is the best strategy. A too conservative strategy might cost you like 5-10 minutes MAX. Go out 5-10s faster for the first half than your capable of (i.e. your in shape for 8:05 miles and you go out at 7:55-8:00) you can EASILY lose 30+ minutes.
also what do i need to eat on my race, i was just gonna go for bananas and water, any other good ideas?
Hopefully you practiced this on your long runs. Assuming you did go with whatever was working. I wouldn't recommend trying too much new stuff you haven't tried eating on a run before as the stomach can be very fickle in a race such as this.
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i ended up failing my challenge and finishing with a time of 4:07, i'm still happy with my finishing time, and at the end of the day its what i did, and i didn't go out there and not finish, all together it was the most draining thing i've ever done but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though :D.
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Yeah, 3:30 with like 2 months of training: as most have said before, that is close to impossibe. Literally only one in a million people could maybe do something like that. 4:07 is still a very good time for a first marathon. And if you keep at it and train longer for your second marathon, you will have a very good shot at 3:30. Gz
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not bad on the 4:07! in the end, you still completed it, and made HUGE progress with all the training you did.
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On October 15 2012 03:48 matthewfoulkes wrote:
i ended up failing my challenge and finishing with a time of 4:07, i'm still happy with my finishing time, and at the end of the day its what i did, and i didn't go out there and not finish, all together it was the most draining thing i've ever done but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though :D.
Still a VERY respectable time for a first marathon of just a few months of training, certainly nothing to be disappointing about.
Out of curiosity, do you know your splits at all? Just curious to see how the race played out.
but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though
From the wording it sounds like you meant to say don't plan too but its hard to tell haha!
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On October 15 2012 03:48 matthewfoulkes wrote:
i ended up failing my challenge and finishing with a time of 4:07, i'm still happy with my finishing time, and at the end of the day its what i did, and i didn't go out there and not finish, all together it was the most draining thing i've ever done but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though :D.
Wow, that is inspiring! And congrats on finishing your first marathon that is no easy feat.
Also just want to say thanks to L Master for all the excellent advice he's given out in this thread & for creating this thread. You are very knowledgeable and helpful to say the least
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On October 15 2012 03:48 matthewfoulkes wrote:
i ended up failing my challenge and finishing with a time of 4:07, i'm still happy with my finishing time, and at the end of the day its what i did, and i didn't go out there and not finish, all together it was the most draining thing i've ever done but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though :D.
I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread because it seemed like you were not only making a good progress in your training, but also maturing in your attitude toward running.
Remember this? 
On August 24 2012 07:46 matthewfoulkes wrote:
dude i don't want to start a confrontation, but i think you are giving the marathon too much credit
4:07 is still a very nice accomplishment. Congratulations!
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Will be doing the rock and roll marathon @ st.louis next sunday!
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Goal Race: 5k Late November
Next Race: 9/18 5k
Mon: AM - 3.1 slow (8:45) / PM - 4.5 easy (7:40)
Tues: AM - 2 easy "pre-warm up" (7:30) / PM - 5xmile w/2-3 min recovery + 4M wu/cd
Wed: AM - 4 easy (8:10) / PM - 3 easy (7:30)
Thurs: AM - 3x(400, 600), 90s recovery after 400, 2min recovery after 600 + 4M wu/cd / PM - 5 easy (7:30)
Fri: PM - OFF
Sat: PM - 8 easy (7:25)
Sun: PM - 12M long run (7:10)
Total: 60M
Mile Repeats - Good workout. Ran under control the whole time. Did 2 min recovery before each one, except for the third where I took a 3:00 recovery. Splits of 6:12, 6:18, 6:01, 5:47, 5:42. First two net up, 3rd one level, last two net down over a rolling trail. Would have done one more, but my foot was starting to complain some.
]400s/600s - Shitty workout. Or maybe shitty mindset. Felt hard and difficult right from the start. Was trying for 8x600m w/2:00 recovery, but ended up going 600/400 to get through with it. Splits of 74, 2:02, 79, 2:02, 79, 2:03. Probably could have kept going, but the foot started to both me good so I smartly shut it down
Long Run - Good workout. 3M easy WU, then 3M @ roughly MP in 21:00, then 3M @ roughly MP effort in 19:05, then 1 mile @ 10k effort in 5:42. 2M "strong easy" cooldown. Definitely wasn't too exhausted and probably shoulda/coulda done a couple more miles.
Overall a good week, with the exception of Thursday and the foot. Honestly I'm probably being too ambitious with where my fitness is with target pace workouts on the track, but Thursday still shouldn't have felt as tough as it did, given that last week I came through first 800 in 2:41 and it felt fine, but Thur. I was hurting by 400m at that pace.
Foot is weird. It's in the left foot and is discomfort on the bottom of my foot right where the middle 3 toes meet the body of the foot. The discomfort is really random. Sometimes it feels fine on a run, once it get better on a run. Another time it felt good on the run and then when I walked up to class started really hurting, only to feel 100% 15 minutes later after sitting. Took Friday off because it seemed moderately aggravated on Thursday and yesterday and today felt fine on the run though I notice it ever so slightly walking around the house right now.
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On October 15 2012 03:48 matthewfoulkes wrote:
i ended up failing my challenge and finishing with a time of 4:07, i'm still happy with my finishing time, and at the end of the day its what i did, and i didn't go out there and not finish, all together it was the most draining thing i've ever done but im still so proud to have run the race, will be running another marathon in the forseeable future though :D.
Shit dude! That's awesome! I have a friend who just finished a marathon at 4:00 whose been a pretty consistent runner for years.
Hope you stick with running and try out for your school team like you planned.
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http://www.tdl.ltd.uk/race-results.php?event=1270&gender=Male&racenumber=792&surname=FOULKES
i ran a bad strategy i guess, went out too hard died towards the end, a 47 minute 10k might have been way too ambitious a start.
if i ran slower out of the gate and saved myself i maybe could of run a 3:50 or something, who knows no use crying over spilt milk.
to address the confusion about whether i'd do another, yes i definitely would, there is a half marathon in my home town this weekend and i'm considering running it, but i doubt it will be anywhere near as epic or as inspiring as the full marathon was.
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On October 16 2012 01:35 matthewfoulkes wrote:http://www.tdl.ltd.uk/race-results.php?event=1270&gender=Male&racenumber=792&surname=FOULKESi ran a bad strategy i guess, went out too hard died towards the end, a 47 minute 10k might have been way too ambitious a start.if i ran slower out of the gate and saved myself i maybe could of run a 3:50 or something, who knows no use crying over spilt milk. to address the confusion about whether i'd do another, yes i definitely would, there is a half marathon in my home town this weekend and i'm considering running it, but i doubt it will be anywhere near as epic or as inspiring as the full marathon was.
Yep. I tried to warn you.
It almost sounds like you wanted to try and "bank time" in case you struggled later on, but that just won't ever work in the marathon. If you want to run say 3:30 you open with a 50-50:30 first 10k, and cruise at that pace for a while, making up some time over the latter stages of the race if you have it on that day.
An "aggressive" marathon strategy (going out 5sec faster than goal) might get you 1-2min faster on the day of days, but the other 19/20 time it's going to cost you 10+ minutes.
If your targeting 8:00 flat pace you usually go out conservative, more like 8:05-8:10 pace the first couple and then settle in and see how you feel. It's really crazy how much a little too fast too soon in the marathon can come back and hurt you.
if i ran slower out of the gate and saved myself i maybe could of run a 3:50 or something. who knows no use crying over spilt milk.
Probably faster, more like 3:40-3:50. No use crying over spilt milk I agree, but looking at the race to see what happened and why is always smart.
Basically your pacing was:
10km - 7:38
10k - halfway - 9:16
Half - 20M - 9:57
20M - Finish - 10:37
So bottom line is you faded hard, because your opening was absurdly fast. From there you just continued to die. If you would have gone out at 8:30 pace or something I imagine that fade would have been much more moderate, perhaps only fading to high 8s pace by the end.
For the future what I want to emphasize here is how bad that first 10k hurt the race. It cost you at least 15 minutes in time, and really possibly as much as 20-25 minutes.
That's part of learning the marathon though. In such a long and in one sense "less intense" race you don't notice going out too hard at the beginning because it still feels good for a long time, but the damage is long done. Whereas if you go out too hard in say a 5k...your going to be in the hurt bank real fast and can usually back off in time to salvage some of your race.
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L_master i totally agree with you, it was a stupid and undisciplined way to run a race, the last 3 miles were like hell with me having to stop a few times, and my legs completely locked out only 800 metres from the finish as i tried to help a runner who was lieing in the road to his feet, i guess nice guys really do finish last  , but after straightening my legs out and massaging myself for a minute i was able to climb back up and run through the finish line with my family there to see me in, i won't lie it was one of the proudest and most fulfilling moments of my life. I just went at it with my body but not my mind, i also slacked alot on training i think, i could of run the 3:30 if i perfomed my utmost in preparation and in the race.
As they say, its not the will to win, its the will to prepare that counts, and believe me i'm going to go again and i will run a 3:30, now i just need to pick a new race and a new goal :D.
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On October 16 2012 03:41 matthewfoulkes wrote:L_master i totally agree with you, it was a stupid and undisciplined way to run a race, the last 3 miles were like hell with me having to stop a few times, and my legs completely locked out only 800 metres from the finish as i tried to help a runner who was lieing in the road to his feet, i guess nice guys really do finish last , but after straightening my legs out and massaging myself for a minute i was able to climb back up and run through the finish line with my family there to see me in, i won't lie it was one of the proudest and most fulfilling moments of my life. I just went at it with my body but not my mind, i also slacked alot on training i think, i could of run the 3:30 if i perfomed my utmost in preparation and in the race. As they say, its not the will to win, its the will to prepare that counts, and believe me i'm going to go again and i will run a 3:30, now i just need to pick a new race and a new goal :D.
Hey, you learn from races and experience. Rarely does some debut with a solid marathon, even at the elite level with guys who are masters and have spent years learning the feels of different paces and how their bodies react.
Also, having done it the "hard" way you probably got some experience with those racing "dark places" and will be that much tougher and accustomed next time the going gets rough on a hard race or long run. What doesn't kill (or injure) you only makes you stronger. What you battled through their was harder than running the race "correctly".
I just went at it with my body but not my mind, i also slacked alot on training i think, i could of run the 3:30 if i performed my utmost in preparation and in the race.
I'll bet you can go alot faster than that next time round. Personally what I would do is take the next week totally off, then the week after 3 days or so of VERY easy runs (so slow you'd be embarrassed if people saw you), and then another week of light runs.
Then go into a training cycle for 5k/10k. You've obviously started building some great endurance from training for that marathon. Which means your ready and prepared for some faster running you just need...the speed.
This will really help your next marathon, because really the marathon is about extension of speed. If your 5k PR is say, 23:00 then no matter how much endurance you have running 3:20-3:30 is going to be basically impossible because marathon pace is just too fast.
After that training cycle you'll find that paces that used to feel quick are much more relaxed and effortless, which will in turn allow you to train for and thus race, a faster marathon.
A big trap many runners who just train for general fitness, or even guys/gals that race primarily the marathon fall into is just that...lack of faster stuff. When you do marathon training your doing lots of volume at paces that vary from slow, long easy runs to at the fastest MP, with the occasional tempos or 10k pace intervals. This is great for building the strength needed to hold goal pace for several hours, but it does little to ultimately get faster and lots of these people stall out on progress, because simply put their PRs aren't fast enough to facilitate training at quicker speeds.
The bottom line is if you want to run fast you have to....run fast. Marathon training builds tremendous strength, but without speed and occasional working on shorter distances you never make faster easier.
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Just wanted to tell you L_Master that your work here is admirable.
Keep up the good work man!
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On October 15 2012 10:08 YPang wrote:
Will be doing the rock and roll marathon @ st.louis next sunday!
Woah holy shit missed this!
KILL IT!
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EPT
