On June 12 2014 11:37 Nos- wrote: Tropes Against Women is a good message executed horrendously by a radical feminist that just blamed everything on "the patriarchy"
Agreed. She is right about some of the overarching points but the specific examples often seem like reaches. But also fuck people for sending her death threats though.
She got sent death threats? I want to type lol.. Not to mean it in a laughing matter but as in people are fucking morons.
are we talking about that feminist woman journalist who got lots of kick starter money to research gender roles in gaming and who many think is a farce? edit: Anita Sarkeesian. that's her name
also games wouldn't be so male-centric if there was a significant female demographic to make games for... why would a guy want to play a leading female character over a male unless it's to stare at her ass? gaming is lot about escapism and vicariously experiencing things. it's inherently not easy for the typical male gamer to connect with and empathize with a female character.
Because interesting stories can be told about a female protagonist. The whole escapism thing is such bullshit to me. If someone can't connect and empathize with a female character just because they're controlling her then that's kinda sad. I mean, females are underrepresented in Hollywood as well, so this isn't something exclusive to video games. It's a conversation worth having but at the end I usually end up feeling like both sides get caught up bickering with each other and no real progress is made.
I dunno, if there was such a big market for females, you would think big companies like EA would be marketing some games to that market to make big money. I just don't think that's the case.
It's not even about targeting the female demographic specifically. Games like Tomb Raider exist where you're playing as a female but it's not a "girl game" by any means. It's just a bummer that there are a lot of female gamers that don't get a chance to play games as their own sex just because a majority of the gaming population is male. If the gender roles were swapped and games were dominated by female characters I would probably be a little annoyed with the state of things.
On June 12 2014 11:37 Nos- wrote: Tropes Against Women is a good message executed horrendously by a radical feminist that just blamed everything on "the patriarchy"
Agreed. She is right about some of the overarching points but the specific examples often seem like reaches. But also fuck people for sending her death threats though.
She got sent death threats? I want to type lol.. Not to mean it in a laughing matter but as in people are fucking morons.
are we talking about that feminist woman journalist who got lots of kick starter money to research gender roles in gaming and who many think is a farce? edit: Anita Sarkeesian. that's her name
also games wouldn't be so male-centric if there was a significant female demographic to make games for... why would a guy want to play a leading female character over a male unless it's to stare at her ass? gaming is lot about escapism and vicariously experiencing things. it's inherently not easy for the typical male gamer to connect with and empathize with a female character.
Because interesting stories can be told about a female protagonist. The whole escapism thing is such bullshit to me. If someone can't connect and empathize with a female character just because they're controlling her then that's kinda sad. I mean, females are underrepresented in Hollywood as well, so this isn't something exclusive to video games. It's a conversation worth having but at the end I usually end up feeling like both sides get caught up bickering with each other and no real progress is made.
I dunno, if there was such a big market for females, you would think big companies like EA would be marketing some games to that market to make big money. I just don't think that's the case.
I think, truly and honestly, people need to find out what kind of games female gamers want to play. Not the companies, but the actual players. Honestly, a game for females tends to be bubblegum pink. This is most likely the type of game that mature female gamers don't want to play. I know somebody that loves playing Tomb Raider games because Lara is a character she can identify with and feel empowered playing as. However, this doesn't restrict her from enjoying other games because the main character isn't in the Lara mold.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
On June 12 2014 11:37 Nos- wrote: Tropes Against Women is a good message executed horrendously by a radical feminist that just blamed everything on "the patriarchy"
Agreed. She is right about some of the overarching points but the specific examples often seem like reaches. But also fuck people for sending her death threats though.
She got sent death threats? I want to type lol.. Not to mean it in a laughing matter but as in people are fucking morons.
are we talking about that feminist woman journalist who got lots of kick starter money to research gender roles in gaming and who many think is a farce? edit: Anita Sarkeesian. that's her name
also games wouldn't be so male-centric if there was a significant female demographic to make games for... why would a guy want to play a leading female character over a male unless it's to stare at her ass? gaming is lot about escapism and vicariously experiencing things. it's inherently not easy for the typical male gamer to connect with and empathize with a female character.
Because interesting stories can be told about a female protagonist. The whole escapism thing is such bullshit to me. If someone can't connect and empathize with a female character just because they're controlling her then that's kinda sad. I mean, females are underrepresented in Hollywood as well, so this isn't something exclusive to video games. It's a conversation worth having but at the end I usually end up feeling like both sides get caught up bickering with each other and no real progress is made.
I dunno, if there was such a big market for females, you would think big companies like EA would be marketing some games to that market to make big money. I just don't think that's the case.
I think, truly and honestly, people need to find out what kind of games female gamers want to play. Not the companies, but the actual players. Honestly, a game for females tends to be bubblegum pink. This is most likely the type of game that mature female gamers don't want to play. I know somebody that loves playing Tomb Raider games because Lara is a character she can identify with and feel empowered playing as. However, this doesn't restrict her from enjoying other games because the main character isn't in the Lara mold.
they like farmville, flappy birds, candy crush and other stupid mobile games.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
That math exam.... Can't believe my future in science will be decided like a freaking lottery :< Got 13 questions to pull out of a hat (Yes! A HAT!). Some of 'em would get me an A and some would outright fail me.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
You really can't call out of whack and then ignore the tech at the time. No one looked realistic in the playstation era, hell Lara at the time essentially had blocks for a chest. A porygon lady with guns if you will. Still the she looks too sexy complaint just delves into a whole 'nother can o worms on the idea that if a character is too sexy it's sexist(ie ignorant views on Wonder Woman or She-hulk) If the character is overdressed she's victorian and prudish and held back by the man or is meant to be seen as a damsel to be rescued and not an actual person.
But seriously good games man it's all about the good games.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
You really can't call out of whack and then ignore the tech at the time. No one looked realistic in the playstation era, hell Lara at the time essentially had blocks for a chest. A porygon lady with guns if you will. Still the she looks too sexy complaint just delves into a whole 'nother can o worms on the idea that if a character is too sexy it's sexist(ie ignorant views on Wonder Woman or She-hulk) If the character is overdressed she's victorian and prudish and held back by the man or is meant to be seen as a damsel to be rescued and not an actual person.
But seriously good games man it's all about the good games.
I don't get the whole too sexy thing. I mean, have you looked at the guys in the games?
Shit, I wish I was half as manly as j4. Unrealistic gender portrayal bro.
The problem with that argument is that the "sexy men" in video games are typically drawn to the standards of what a man thinks is sexy, and not to the standards of what a woman thinks is sexy.
Women typically do not find huge bristling manly muscles attractive, as it turns out.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
You really can't call out of whack and then ignore the tech at the time. No one looked realistic in the playstation era, hell Lara at the time essentially had blocks for a chest. A porygon lady with guns if you will. Still the she looks too sexy complaint just delves into a whole 'nother can o worms on the idea that if a character is too sexy it's sexist(ie ignorant views on Wonder Woman or She-hulk) If the character is overdressed she's victorian and prudish and held back by the man or is meant to be seen as a damsel to be rescued and not an actual person.
But seriously good games man it's all about the good games.
I don't get the whole too sexy thing. I mean, have you looked at the guys in the games?
Shit, I wish I was half as manly as j4. Unrealistic gender portrayal bro.
The defense I always hear to that is that it's normal/admirable/awesome/healthy/etc for dudes to look up to hyper masculine beasts as their escapist role models, that men can at least work towards a hulked up look(although never ever achieve the extent it is shown in comics and video games) in the gym while women can only cry at their lack of breasts or seek out plastic surgery.
I do think there is an amazing amount of glossing over just how many men suffer from body image issues; it's hardly a problem isolated to women.
On June 12 2014 15:46 Ketara wrote: The problem with that argument is that the "sexy men" in video games are typically drawn to the standards of what a man thinks is sexy, and not to the standards of what a woman thinks is sexy.
Women typically do not find huge bristling manly muscles attractive, as it turns out.
I hear this all the time, and while the extreme end of professional body building is indeed a turn off to women, I see empirical evidence to "well muscled" men doing much better with women, all other things being equal(which is RIDICULOUSLY important here, because women do place a lot of value on a lot of that 'all else' part).
Edit: This is especially true if the woman is ovulating.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
You really can't call out of whack and then ignore the tech at the time. No one looked realistic in the playstation era, hell Lara at the time essentially had blocks for a chest. A porygon lady with guns if you will. Still the she looks too sexy complaint just delves into a whole 'nother can o worms on the idea that if a character is too sexy it's sexist(ie ignorant views on Wonder Woman or She-hulk) If the character is overdressed she's victorian and prudish and held back by the man or is meant to be seen as a damsel to be rescued and not an actual person.
But seriously good games man it's all about the good games.
I'm playing devil advocate here, I personally had no issue with how Lara's debut looked(didn't hurt that I was a 9-10 year old at the time.) I know why she looked the way she looked. Most people don't grasp how difficult working with models and programming are.
Keep in mind that these are the same people that dislike Barbie for being proportioned the way she is, where there was no excuse for the way she looks. They're kinda stuck with a "fool me once" scenario with "Here's a role model with unrealistic proportions!"
On June 12 2014 15:48 red_ wrote: I hear this all the time, and while the extreme end of professional body building is indeed a turn off to women, I see empirical evidence to "well muscled" men doing much better with women, all other things being equal(which is RIDICULOUSLY important here, because women do place a lot of value on a lot of that 'all else' part).
Edit: This is especially true if the woman is ovulating.
Just going to tack on here to back this point up, that most polls of male champions in league have Varus far and away considered the most attractive male in the game.
On June 12 2014 15:46 Ketara wrote: The problem with that argument is that the "sexy men" in video games are typically drawn to the standards of what a man thinks is sexy, and not to the standards of what a woman thinks is sexy.
Women typically do not find huge bristling manly muscles attractive, as it turns out.
Single independent successful female able to shoot things and be a badass is not a good example how? In the end I could list off tons of games with good male/female and bad female and male characters but quite frankly like most people I just want good games and I could care less rather it's a male or female with the exception of RPG's because I generally want to roll my own character and I like playing men as well I'm a guy crazy I know.
Gamers will play good games no matter what gender the person you happen to control is. *shrug*
One of the big issues is that when Tomb Raider came out, Lara's proportions were way out of whack. Regardless of technological limitations, there's no doubting that. Droves of people were drawn to the games because of it and there was hundreds if not thousands of "cheat codes" to make her nude. In her beginning Lara was very much a "Sexy Indiana Jones" halloween videogame character.
Over time this has dwindled to the point where she is now, albeit still very attractive and shapely, at least realistically designed. Problem is that first impressions are lasting ones and the people who it bothered way back when have a really hard time letting it go.
You really can't call out of whack and then ignore the tech at the time. No one looked realistic in the playstation era, hell Lara at the time essentially had blocks for a chest. A porygon lady with guns if you will. Still the she looks too sexy complaint just delves into a whole 'nother can o worms on the idea that if a character is too sexy it's sexist(ie ignorant views on Wonder Woman or She-hulk) If the character is overdressed she's victorian and prudish and held back by the man or is meant to be seen as a damsel to be rescued and not an actual person.
But seriously good games man it's all about the good games.
I don't get the whole too sexy thing. I mean, have you looked at the guys in the games?
Shit, I wish I was half as manly as j4. Unrealistic gender portrayal bro.
The defense I always hear to that is that it's normal/admirable/awesome/healthy/etc for dudes to look up to hyper masculine beasts as their escapist role models, that men can at least work towards a hulked up look(although never ever achieve the extent it is shown in comics and video games) in the gym while women can only cry at their lack of breasts or seek out plastic surgery.
I do think there is an amazing amount of glossing over just how many men suffer from body image issues; it's hardly a problem isolated to women.
but, it's impossible for me to grow facial hair. What about all the asian folks that want to be like braum? too unrealistic bruh. Also dem gainz and cut are impossible without roids.
Isn't Anita Sarkeesian widely regarded as a fraud? In timespan of 2 whole years (funny, her kickstarter project started/finished? 12. of june 2012) after getting $158,922 through kickstarter she made 98 minutes of content, 2 whole episodes. Either it takes a lot more money than I thought to just talk to a camera and edit in videogame montages or she just made off with the money.
Dammit Soniv, careful with these NSFW video thumbnails.
On June 12 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote: Was warrior. No execute in hand either. And as for 'back' the ban was only to try and circumvent possible forum bitching/raging/having a mental breakdown-ing. I did plenty of that irl so I dunno how much I'll be around.
I pretty much only do that and post music links in here, I'm still around!
On June 12 2014 11:37 Nos- wrote: Tropes Against Women is a good message executed horrendously by someone that just blames everything on "the patriarchy".
At this point "honourable intentions botched by short-sighted delivery" is pretty much a trope of the topic, though. More seriously, I find that it makes it harder for me to delve into debates about it because of the amount of disclaimers and having this type of thing thrown at you only to jump at your throat if you dare object to it. Kind of a "take it as the whole package or reject it all, I'll take you agreeing with the symptoms but not with the reasoning as a rejection and spit on you even if we share the same opinion in the end" deal. I'm pretty nitpicky so I run into these issues a lot, but on topics like women's condition in general (and in video games) I doubt it's related to me.
On June 12 2014 15:46 Ketara wrote: The problem with that argument is that the "sexy men" in video games are typically drawn to the standards of what a man thinks is sexy, and not to the standards of what a woman thinks is sexy.
Women typically do not find huge bristling manly muscles attractive, as it turns out.
On June 12 2014 15:48 red_ wrote: I hear this all the time, and while the extreme end of professional body building is indeed a turn off to women, I see empirical evidence to "well muscled" men doing much better with women, all other things being equal(which is RIDICULOUSLY important here, because women do place a lot of value on a lot of that 'all else' part).
Edit: This is especially true if the woman is ovulating.
Just going to tack on here to back this point up, that most polls of male champions in league have Varus far and away considered the most attractive male in the game.
Dark and brooding, gets them all yo. (Till they see what a bitchy/edgy man sounds like in real life. )
All I got from this discussion is that there needs to be more Oni games and/or a Ghost in the Shell game.
On June 12 2014 15:46 Ketara wrote: The problem with that argument is that the "sexy men" in video games are typically drawn to the standards of what a man thinks is sexy, and not to the standards of what a woman thinks is sexy.
Women typically do not find huge bristling manly muscles attractive, as it turns out.
Is it weird that I never play male characters if given the choice since they all look like giant bulldozers?
The whole escapism stuff is pretty weird I think. Maybe due to reading a lot myself I never view games in that way and the books I read tend to have strong female protagonists as well. I actually can't remember the last game I played that you could play a woman that didn't have both options. Seems it's either you play a man or you can play both. Rather interesting.
Really? I can remember a couple off the top of my head which means there would be even more if I thought about it.
newest Tomb Raider, remember me, portal series, mirrors edge first two are pretty recent games last two i replayed recently.
imo the main reason for female "underrepresentation" is that game makers are usually male across the board, so they feel more comfortable writing men, and coincidentially guys play more games than women (unless it's facebook games i guess) so male protags happen to have a bigger target audience
On June 12 2014 19:59 Dandel Ion wrote: Really? I can remember a couple off the top of my head which means there would be even more if I thought about it.
newest Tomb Raider, remember me, portal series, mirrors edge first two are pretty recent games last two i replayed recently.
imo the main reason for female "underrepresentation" is that game makers are usually male across the board, so they feel more comfortable writing men, and coincidentially guys play more games than women (unless it's facebook games i guess) so male protags happen to have a bigger target audience
I also feel like a standard story that favours big female audiences (romcom/drama) doesn't translate as well into the gaming medium as action/adventure.
EPT
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