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darklycid
3517 Posts
On September 08 2025 07:24 Poopi wrote: Poor Maru getting tossed out of the event. Gg ShoWTimE and herO though His disjointed mech scv pull in g3 vs herO looked Like He was Just Dome for and Just wanted the Match to end. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On September 08 2025 07:12 TeamMamba wrote: Toss the best at adapting since they basically have been adapting patch to patch for a decade. Their builds and timing are constantly changing. Zerg is okay at adapting since they are more reactive race Terran are terrible at adapting since they know nothing except mmm since WOL. Their builds haven’t really change much since LoTV or just too stubborn  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On September 08 2025 07:12 TeamMamba wrote: Toss the best at adapting since they basically have been adapting patch to patch for a decade. Their builds and timing are constantly changing. Zerg is okay at adapting since they are more reactive race Terran are terrible at adapting since they know nothing except mmm since WOL. Their builds haven’t really change much since LoTV or just too stubborn Terrans are atrocious for whining and having an unearned martyr complex in many instances, but you can’t say they don’t adapt. They’ve thrown a veritable kitchen sink of approaches against Toss in the current high-level meta, and as yet don’t have reliable solutions. Mech certainly ain’t gonna be it, Toss players have probably not seen it in years and are out of practice in responding properly. I can’t see that lasting all too long. Which tbh I don’t really mind as I don’t particularly enjoy SC2 mech in TvP This may genuinely be one of the worst matchup metas in the history of the game at the top level and I really don’t see an out that isn’t a patch of some kind. At least in the top 10 Perhaps someone will figure something out, it’s always cool when organic solutions are found to problems without a patch, I just don’t currently see it. Granted I’m a scrub and not a progamer, so it’s only natural I wouldn’t have any great ideas | ||
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duckTemplar
United States200 Posts
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TeamMamba
154 Posts
On September 08 2025 08:20 WombaT wrote: Terrans are atrocious for whining and having an unearned martyr complex in many instances, but you can’t say they don’t adapt. They’ve thrown a veritable kitchen sink of approaches against Toss in the current high-level meta, and as yet don’t have reliable solutions. Mech certainly ain’t gonna be it, Toss players have probably not seen it in years and are out of practice in responding properly. I can’t see that lasting all too long. Which tbh I don’t really mind as I don’t particularly enjoy SC2 mech in TvP This may genuinely be one of the worst matchup metas in the history of the game at the top level and I really don’t see an out that isn’t a patch of some kind. At least in the top 10 Perhaps someone will figure something out, it’s always cool when organic solutions are found to problems without a patch, I just don’t currently see it. Granted I’m a scrub and not a progamer, so it’s only natural I wouldn’t have any great ideas Terran whining been there since WOL I dunno wombat if I agree if terran has throw kitchen sink approach in current meta. What has really changed in their approach? 2 base timing pull the boys isn’t sometime that is new. This was literally a 90% win rate against toss before classic literally solved it by changing the meta. Didn’t rush a fast third, instead going for more units and rushing storm. Before classic, toss was still trying to go col first, but still kept dying when terran pushed their 3rd Toss was literally dying each time to this timing push before classic paved the way. Once again, it was the toss that found the solution and adapt. As of right now, the only thing I see new is mech approach switch is working semi decently. Now it’s up to the Terran to think of something new and adapt instead of stubborning doing the same thing over and over and cry about it when it fails | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On September 08 2025 12:21 TeamMamba wrote: Terran whining been there since WOL I dunno wombat if I agree if terran has throw kitchen sink approach in current meta. What has really changed in their approach? 2 base timing pull the boys isn’t sometime that is new. This was literally a 90% win rate against toss before classic literally solved it by changing the meta. Didn’t rush a fast third, instead going for more units and rushing storm. Before classic, toss was still trying to go col first, but still kept dying when terran pushed their 3rd Toss was literally dying each time to this timing push before classic paved the way. Once again, it was the toss that found the solution and adapt. As of right now, the only thing I see new is mech approach switch is working semi decently. Now it’s up to the Terran to think of something new and adapt instead of stubborning doing the same thing over and over and cry about it when it fails yes. terrans need to adapt and find a new approach - like switching to protoss anyway, don't feed the troll. the whole purpose of TeamMamba's TL account is to ragebait people on this topic | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4033 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9419 Posts
On September 08 2025 08:20 WombaT wrote: Terrans are atrocious for whining and having an unearned martyr complex in many instances, but you can’t say they don’t adapt. They’ve thrown a veritable kitchen sink of approaches against Toss in the current high-level meta, and as yet don’t have reliable solutions. Mech certainly ain’t gonna be it, Toss players have probably not seen it in years and are out of practice in responding properly. I can’t see that lasting all too long. Which tbh I don’t really mind as I don’t particularly enjoy SC2 mech in TvP This may genuinely be one of the worst matchup metas in the history of the game at the top level and I really don’t see an out that isn’t a patch of some kind. At least in the top 10 Perhaps someone will figure something out, it’s always cool when organic solutions are found to problems without a patch, I just don’t currently see it. Granted I’m a scrub and not a progamer, so it’s only natural I wouldn’t have any great ideas I still think it's kinda enjoyable seeing new playstyles as it forces new tactics/strategies. It makes it a bit more unpredictable how the game will play out. But yes TvP is the closest we get to broodlord/infestor. We don't know when we are gonna get a patch. It could last long and I think all terrans should start practising protoss now. Eventually TvT matchups may turn into PvP. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1381 Posts
EDIT: There is definitely a problem with Energy Overcharge*, but it's not even close to being that bad. *which would be best fixed by rolling back to a patch that we know was statistically balanced, such as the Balance Council's very first patch, but we're probably going to get more cack-handed attempts at fixing the game by self-interested professional players with little-to-no game development experience... | ||
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duckTemplar
United States200 Posts
big congratslation to Showtime, he was the Maestro of that series. | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
Is it just that energy recharge enables greedier openings from toss leading to huge late game advantages? | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On September 09 2025 03:24 angry_maia wrote: Can someone explain to me how this specific patch led to protoss LATE game against terran being so strong? I see so many twitch comments talking about storm being imba, but late game pvt always had access to storms, tempests, etc. Is it just that energy recharge enables greedier openings from toss leading to huge late game advantages? Pretty much yeah. When Terrans make it to late game they often trade cost efficiently but are just down so many bases it doesn't matter. If a Terran ever made it to late game only 1 base down I imagine they would do fine, but that's basically unheared of in this meta. It would be "interesting" (probably not fun though because tempests) to see how better buffed tempests would do against heavy liberators... but late game TvP is usually Terrans holding on with low eco against waves of zealots and storm. Why give Terran time by being cost-efficient as Toss if you're 2+ bases up? I think the brood lord infestor comparisons are overwrought, PvT right now is probably the reverse of how TvP was for most of 2023 (except Protoss favored ofc.) I really think a modest nerf to energy overcharge so charged templar only get 1 storm and maybe an energy cost increase of hallucination could be enough to put the MU in a good spot, but knowing Blizzard we might have to wait until 2026... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On September 09 2025 09:05 dysenterymd wrote: Pretty much yeah. When Terrans make it to late game they often trade cost efficiently but are just down so many bases it doesn't matter. If a Terran ever made it to late game only 1 base down I imagine they would do fine, but that's basically unheared of in this meta. It would be "interesting" (probably not fun though because tempests) to see how better buffed tempests would do against heavy liberators... but late game TvP is usually Terrans holding on with low eco against waves of zealots and storm. Why give Terran time by being cost-efficient as Toss if you're 2+ bases up? I think the brood lord infestor comparisons are overwrought, PvT right now is probably the reverse of how TvP was for most of 2023 (except Protoss favored ofc.) I really think a modest nerf to energy overcharge so charged templar only get 1 storm and maybe an energy cost increase of hallucination could be enough to put the MU in a good spot, but knowing Blizzard we might have to wait until 2026... Yeah I’m reminded of the metas where Trap was winning a lot and Parting and others were fearsome in the matchup. Battery overcharge was a bit too strong, so Terrans struggled to punish. Which often lead to the mid-lategame Toss being up 1-2 bases and having a lot of options while Terran was on something of a timer. In those days the Toss could use the extra eco to accelerate their doom comp, or alternatively just throw tons of Zealots and blink DTs at outlying expansions. It feels somewhat similar now, Toss players will maybe slightly delay expanding super greedily to have their Temps with energy, but once they’ve got that they’re pretty damn safe and can almost double expand to compensate The flipside of the previous observations was when battery overcharge was a bit weaker, Toss just consistently died to things like tank timings with a raven to disable defensive colossus. It feels really hard to balance around and to find that sweet spot, and now we’ve a totally new mechanic to consider. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On September 09 2025 03:24 angry_maia wrote: Can someone explain to me how this specific patch led to protoss LATE game against terran being so strong? I see so many twitch comments talking about storm being imba, but late game pvt always had access to storms, tempests, etc. Is it just that energy recharge enables greedier openings from toss leading to huge late game advantages? cast your mind back to 2019. an amateur Danish protoss comes out of nowhere reinvents the PvT early-game meta. the MaxPax build is the reason why terrans now build their CC on the high-ground. how about that. a major exploit discovered in the early-game, when every scrap of minerals matter in a way that dictates the pace of the whole match-up. I find it extraordinary how none of the top protoss players of the time managed to figure this out by themselves. Classic, Parting, herO, Trap, Stats - all of them were active in 2019, yet it took a faceless grandmaster from the EU ladder to reveal a critical weakness in terran openings. why were the top P players of 2019 not taking a fast 4th nexus at 8 minutes? or building up to 18 gateways? or bulk-warping 40 supply of army onto the map? did they not have the zealot Deliveroo app installed?? why were they not using mass nexus as target dummies to bait T into pushing an insignificant structure? why weren't they exploiting T with a comical amounts of zealot runbys like they are today? because the Korean protoss of code S were gentlemen of the highest order, of course! Executor Stats and the rest of the conclave understood that if they fully exploited these tactics, terran bio would be dead and viewership of the game would suffer. that's why they came together at a secret council meeting within the ruins of Aiur and made a solemn pact agreeing only to use honorable tactics and conservative expansion timings against their terran opponents. unfortunately, there was one miscreant among the council who had different ideas... the bad boy himself! what nobody talks about is the possibility of top-tier P players having another "eureka" moment, like they did with the Maxpax build. is it really all down to balance patches? or could it be that protoss players are only now figuring out how to exploit macro vs. terran? when you see trigger taking Byun's 4th base and think "wow, that's dumb. protoss is really strong all of a sudden", what you're actually seeing is a no-name, low grandmaster protoss trolling the ladder in 2019. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Ko4opth.jpeg) making toss invincible in the early game certainly makes this kind of wasteful gateway / mass nexus style more viable. if you give P a head-start in the early and mid-game, they're gonna have a very comfy late-game too. that's exactly what happens when terran tries to go toe-to-toe with protoss macro. terran bio doesn't have an answer to the mass expansion meta vP. on top of that, terran can't protect their SCVs in the late-game. you'll see a comical number of zealots skating into multiple mineral lines with their nitro boosted rollerblades, wreaking havoc - with very low (let's be real, zero) micro tax on P's end - while terran is heavily micro-taxed by multiple defensive actions. an afk zealot runby with upgrades will steamroll an equal-supply defense of ragtag bio reinforcements without medivacs. you can disengage your zealots any time you want to. the attrition cost for attacks like this are very, very low. the only thing that can pick off zealots on the retreat are marauders or ghost snipe - if you manage to rally enough marauders / ghosts to even force a retreat in the first place. worst case scenario for P: your runby results in an even trade. best case scenario for P: you cripple the terran by doing game-ending eco damage, or you force him to peel away a critical portion of his bio before pouncing on a planetary with your main higher-tech army. zealot runbys on 18 gateways are the most egregious type of low-attention-span, zero micro distraction you can perform while searching for nice openings to storm the main terran bio force, or simply flatten a planetary. that's how late-game TvP's typically ends: when terran suddenly drops from 68 workers to 25 workers in a matter of seconds. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 09 2025 09:05 dysenterymd wrote: I think the brood lord infestor comparisons are overwrought, PvT right now is probably the reverse of how TvP was for most of 2023 (except Protoss favored ofc.) I really think a modest nerf to energy overcharge so charged templar only get 1 storm and maybe an energy cost increase of hallucination could be enough to put the MU in a good spot, but knowing Blizzard we might have to wait until 2026... not too much in favor of an energy cost increase of hallucination (100 was really too much) but having energy overcharge only give 50 energy instead of 100 would really improve things a lot - the cooldown could be played with as well, I'd say it's too short. I think the mu would still be P favored, but not by the considerable margin we see today. If you need to improve the mu for T even more after that, revert some of the shield battery health buff and I think we're good to go - those changes would be tame enough not to make P weak in PvZ by any means. | ||
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tigera6
3448 Posts
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PremoBeats
538 Posts
Congrats to Showtime... pulling through against herO and Maru! After G2 I thought we get another Showtime-moment. But realizing that his opening actually worked and he simply fumbled in the follow-up, to go for another Dark Shrine in G5 was really nice to see. And now he directly has to face Classic in the Ro8.. Oh boy. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1215 Posts
Let's see whether Reynor and Clem too can advance over the Korean protosses in the upper bracket. | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden796 Posts
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bulldozer06701
139 Posts
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