EPTOn June 30 2024 23:59 TheDougler wrote:
If this is the end, it’s been a pleasure all.
If this is the end, it’s been a pleasure all.
It really has
[GSL 2024] Code S:Season 2 - Finals Day! - Page 6
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
It really has | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On June 29 2024 21:52 darklycid wrote: Kinda funny that in the period of zergs telling us they are so so weak dark wins a gsl again  But really happy for him he deserved it, also maru just seems a lil off recently. Terran defintely are the heavy favourites in this patch/ map pool let’s not hide that fact It’s just makes dark win more impressive as the huge underdog. But this is probably cause daddy dark > bachelor dark | ||
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tigera6
3485 Posts
Just watching at the games, I feel that Zerg at the moment can have so many opportunity to either drag the game into lategame, or just commit an all-in push at any timing and end it. Top level Zerg can sniff out any Terran builds from miles away and get the right preparation for it, making sure they are always ahead enough. Meanwhile Terran might have absolutely no clue whats coming until they got hit at the door. I feel that Terran should have an empty medivac with boost ready just to scout the Zerg base, or make a Raven to clean creep and use the Scan on the Zerg base, just so they can react to it correctly. And for Maru case, hes just too yolo for no reason against Dark, like he doesnt think he can win against the Zerg who commit to Roach Ravager early game and had to win the game there. While he can totally transition into Ghost and Mech lategame, and just turtle on 5 base until hit max. Multiple times I felt that he should just pull back and set up the defense while teching up, but he keep send Tanks and Marines to fight into more Roach and Ravager. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On July 01 2024 12:30 tigera6 wrote: Terran just have many more "great" tier players comparing to Zerg, but Zerg is still having more players at "god" tier in most global events. So the overall % is Terran favored, but they are not winning at the very end of any tournament only a top Terran playing out of his mind in TvZ like Clem did in ESL Winter. Just watching at the games, I feel that Zerg at the moment can have so many opportunity to either drag the game into lategame, or just commit an all-in push at any timing and end it. Top level Zerg can sniff out any Terran builds from miles away and get the right preparation for it, making sure they are always ahead enough. Meanwhile Terran might have absolutely no clue whats coming until they got hit at the door. I feel that Terran should have an empty medivac with boost ready just to scout the Zerg base, or make a Raven to clean creep and use the Scan on the Zerg base, just so they can react to it correctly. And for Maru case, hes just too yolo for no reason against Dark, like he doesnt think he can win against the Zerg who commit to Roach Ravager early game and had to win the game there. While he can totally transition into Ghost and Mech lategame, and just turtle on 5 base until hit max. Multiple times I felt that he should just pull back and set up the defense while teching up, but he keep send Tanks and Marines to fight into more Roach and Ravager. what's the scan going to see? a roach warren? and then what? what if zerg just builds a roach warren (very small cost) and decides not to pump roaches for a timing? any reaction that terran makes is bad unless you actually see what units are hatching from the eggs. zerg is able to shift gears very easily and counter whatever reactionary play the terran is doing. zerg is the reactionary race. terran is the timing attack race. that's why Maru tries to gain momentum with ill-advised pushes | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7195 Posts
Sidenote: In game 4 Maru has 92!!!!! workers before the attack from Dark. Dark kills 59 workers and Maru still has 41 left. This means he basically had full SCV production all throughout the engagement. Crazy numbers | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
When Rogue destroyed Maru 4-0 in that GSL finals a few years ago and when Serral rolls over Maru with roaches and now Dark did well with roaches as well, does it seem Maru is really weak vs roaches compared to say clem and other Ts? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7195 Posts
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On July 01 2024 22:26 allmotor1 wrote: Dark has always been one of my favorite players ever. I love his chaotic style. When Rogue destroyed Maru 4-0 in that GSL finals a few years ago and when Serral rolls over Maru with roaches and now Dark did well with roaches as well, does it seem Maru is really weak vs roaches compared to say clem and other Ts? Funnily enough a few years ago Clem did much worse against Rogue/Dark than Serral/Reynor because the latter rarely built roaches and Clem kept attacking unnecessarily into roaches. I don't think Maru necessarily has a problem with roaches though - iirc in the last Maru-Dark Code S finals Maru put on a masterclass at fighting roaches. Plus, one of Dark's wins was with ling bane and another was with a queen ling dropalord all-in. Game 2 also should have been a Maru win, his early game against roaches was amazing, Dark just did Dark things and sometimes did a bunch of damage with roach hydra against a superior Terran position. | ||
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tigera6
3485 Posts
On July 01 2024 23:14 dysenterymd wrote: Funnily enough a few years ago Clem did much worse against Rogue/Dark than Serral/Reynor because the latter rarely built roaches and Clem kept attacking unnecessarily into roaches. I don't think Maru necessarily has a problem with roaches though - iirc in the last Maru-Dark Code S finals Maru put on a masterclass at fighting roaches. Plus, one of Dark's wins was with ling bane and another was with a queen ling dropalord all-in. Game 2 also should have been a Maru win, his early game against roaches was amazing, Dark just did Dark things and sometimes did a bunch of damage with roach hydra against a superior Terran position. Maru problem isnt with Roach, its his lack of awareness of the situation at times. There was no reason for him to keep pushing into a Zerg defensive position of Roach/Ravager with just Tanks and Marines. In the game 2, he could have pulled back after the initial trade, and just stay defensive on 5 bases and slowly getting out Marauder/Libs/Ghost. His early defense against initial Roach attack was pretty great and didnt die like Cure, but he keep pressing on the gas after that. | ||
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Poopi
France12912 Posts
On July 02 2024 00:01 tigera6 wrote: Maru problem isnt with Roach, its his lack of awareness of the situation at times. There was no reason for him to keep pushing into a Zerg defensive position of Roach/Ravager with just Tanks and Marines. In the game 2, he could have pulled back after the initial trade, and just stay defensive on 5 bases and slowly getting out Marauder/Libs/Ghost. His early defense against initial Roach attack was pretty great and didnt die like Cure, but he keep pressing on the gas after that. I mean we don't have any clue about the mindgames between the players, form of the day, what went into his mind. It's quite easy to look at the game from obs PoV + dezoom / production and stuff and analyze a posteriori. And I think people often underestimate Dark's power, he is an incredibly tricky opponent to play against | ||
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allmotor1
153 Posts
On July 02 2024 00:06 Poopi wrote: I mean we don't have any clue about the mindgames between the players, form of the day, what went into his mind. It's quite easy to look at the game from obs PoV + dezoom / production and stuff and analyze a posteriori. And I think people often underestimate Dark's power, he is an incredibly tricky opponent to play against I never write off Dark, to me that's crazy if people do. Dark is just amazing and he's so chaotic I love it. I would say of all the top zergs, Serral would be the cleanest zerg, very formulaic, hard to get him off the tracks, but his opposite would be Dark. Just so chaotic and fun to watch. | ||
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tigera6
3485 Posts
I mean we don't have any clue about the mindgames between the players, form of the day, what went into his mind. It's quite easy to look at the game from obs PoV + dezoom / production and stuff and analyze a posteriori. And I think people often underestimate Dark's power, he is an incredibly tricky opponent to play against I have seen Maru done much better from the same situation previously, thats why I am extra harsh on him like this. While its true there are lots of thing that we viewers cant appreciate, its still pretty damn frustrating to watch the guy who is known as the best defensive Terran refuse to play safe and just yolo on his opponent defense. Remind | ||
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yubo56
690 Posts
This almost never works vs Maru when Maru's in the right head space, since Maru usually has a very patient midgame, confident in his late game, and he's happy giving up as much map control as needed to get to late game. But this series, Maru kept overcommitting on trying to get incremental damage and pinning the Zerg, which get hard punished by Dark's full-send attacks. It's a weird departure for Maru, especially since it seems like it's the only way he ever loses. Maybe he drilled a lot of mid game after his back-to-back series vs Serral, and was very confident in his mid game? It's weird for sure, but Dark got to play his game over and over this series haha | ||
SharkStarcraft
Austria2260 Posts
Also, any news on what 2025 might bring? | ||
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tigera6
3485 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On July 03 2024 17:41 tigera6 wrote: I think GSL or ESL KR will have to wait until after EWC to see what their plan for next EPT season. I smell a worst case scenario where GSL goes to the wall when even a fraction of the EWC money would have kept it going another while. Then for EWC to drop SC2 once its purpose to give this new event some old school legitimacy was served But then I am very much a glass half empty kinda lad | ||
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Malinor
Germany4739 Posts
On July 01 2024 12:30 tigera6 wrote: Terran just have many more "great" tier players comparing to Zerg, but Zerg is still having more players at "god" tier in most global events. So the overall % is Terran favored, but they are not winning at the very end of any tournament only a top Terran playing out of his mind in TvZ like Clem did in ESL Winter. Just watching at the games, I feel that Zerg at the moment can have so many opportunity to either drag the game into lategame, or just commit an all-in push at any timing and end it. Top level Zerg can sniff out any Terran builds from miles away and get the right preparation for it, making sure they are always ahead enough. Meanwhile Terran might have absolutely no clue whats coming until they got hit at the door. I feel that Terran should have an empty medivac with boost ready just to scout the Zerg base, or make a Raven to clean creep and use the Scan on the Zerg base, just so they can react to it correctly. And for Maru case, hes just too yolo for no reason against Dark, like he doesnt think he can win against the Zerg who commit to Roach Ravager early game and had to win the game there. While he can totally transition into Ghost and Mech lategame, and just turtle on 5 base until hit max. Multiple times I felt that he should just pull back and set up the defense while teching up, but he keep send Tanks and Marines to fight into more Roach and Ravager. I think throughout the years I have read a version of the post above a few hunderd times from as many people. The arguments are always the same and very often also appear in the same order: 1. Race X is just stronger at the top, because of Y. The statistics don't show this because of Z. 2. Obviously, player A from race B has to play godlike to even stand a chance. (This argument is made, despite the fact that, in this case, Maru won 3 out of the last 4 GSLs) 3. Player X, who has won a lot of GSLs and a lot of Premier events, just played so stupid. How could he be so stupid? If he would have just trusted himself or done Y or Z on map A or B, he would have won. Fundamentally, I believe people do not realize how slim the margins are on the very top in sports or games. Roger Federer just mentioned in his speech at some university that he won 80+ percent of his games, but only 54% of all points he played. The best or second best player of all time won 54% of points during his career. I think we all gravitate naturally towards viewing the games from the point of view of one player and not the other. Paired with complete vision of the map, we lose sight of what is really going on a lot of the time. What was going on this time was probably that Dark was the better player on that day. | ||
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tigera6
3485 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7195 Posts
On July 04 2024 02:53 WombaT wrote: I smell a worst case scenario where GSL goes to the wall when even a fraction of the EWC money would have kept it going another while. Then for EWC to drop SC2 once its purpose to give this new event some old school legitimacy was served But then I am very much a glass half empty kinda lad And why wouldn't they? Seems reasonable from a marketing PoV I still have hope for another year of ESL, but not for GSL GSL will get mixed into ESL Asia/ Korea as an online qualifier for ESL Masters. If we are lucky we get two Masters + IEM + EWC for next season | ||
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